PC Do you guys like this new leveling system ?

That's because you allowed spamming stone axes to buy steel. You had it half right... Spamming stone axes should have yielded a kick ass stone axe, not open up concrete, steel, or the myriad of other things that would incentivize spamming stone axes.
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Thats just as immersion breaking as what we had. So crafting a stone tool doesn't yield any experience at crafting an iron one? Its a moot point we are definitely not going back to skills. What we can do is improve what we have in place now.

 
This is reasonable feedback. The idea was that who wants to play as that rocket scientist character whos smart enough to craft everything? I suppose everyone if you can level endlessly and buy perks endlessly. IMO by level 100 or so most people would want to start a new game, I play to about level 50 in fallout skyrim then start over and pick all new perks and play completely differently, and role play with traits and stuff. I guess we're not quite there yet, but I certainly don't play INT 10 in Fallout, you can find gun mods and stuff so there is no reason to if your willing to scavenge or find what you want as a trader.
Maybe we need to only have 1 or two attributes you can go to 10 on, so that people actually have to decide if they want to suck at guns in order to craft the best stuff.

The other option is to move some crafting around. Like to craft handguns you need the gunslinger perks and at least INT5. Multi requirements are tricky though so probably not a good idea.

Probably a limited economy of attribute points or make them cost more and more to reach 10. Then we could remove the level gates.
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MADMOLE, This is exactly the problem. You are forcing us to play the game how you would play a game. Make some random rules in our head and role play, not everyone does not or enjoys that. Personally, I really enjoyed having to learn skills by finding books. Every single game was different. It was luck of the draw on the skills you got. Some games you could have a forge by day 2. Some game still couldn't build one by day 20 so you had to go find one to use or just make due. But see, that is how I like to play, it is different from how YOU like to play.

I see it like this. Before the game REALLY took off you were making a game that everyone would like so they would buy it. Now that it has sold a lot you have changed MUCH of what people liked about the game, what brought us into the game to begin with, and now are making a game YOU want to play, not necessarily a game WE all want to play.

That's my 2 cents.

 
Madmole, New way is much better, thanks for sticking to your guns against the vocal minority.
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Thanks. If your not a min maxer type you will love the new system. We're balancing it and improving it.

 
I just feel like there are easy solutions to the stone axe power leveling. One being diminishing returns, that either stack permanently or refresh after a day depending on which is better for gameplay. The former makes sense in that if you craft 200 stone axes, how much better can you get at crafting a stone axe at that point? If you want to advance, move on to the next tier of crafting materials which you would have unlocked by that point and continue gaining XP. And either one solves the problem from a gameplay aspect of spam craft leveling with easy materials.

Re: people having to decide if they want to suck at guns in order to craft the best stuff...why can someone not eventually be good at both? Spend time shooting guns, you get better with guns, spend time crafting, you get better at crafting. You only have so much time, you can't do both at once, but you can get better at each more slowly than if you were to only focus on one. I feel like action skills kind of did that...

Like it's not so much that I'm trying to convince. As you said it's a moot point and action skills aren't coming back, and I just modded them back in, and we both win essentially. I just don't really get some of the reasons given. If ya'll just said something like, "We felt it would be a better experience for players if we streamlined the perks and simplified the system to skill points only," I would have just thought to myself that I disagree but alright.

 
Thanks. If your not a min maxer type you will love the new system. We're balancing it and improving it.
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I agree, if you just play the game it is quite enjoyable as is. Obviously a few things need balanced and I'm sure we'll get there.

 
What did you have to find before ? Gun parts? Now you have to find mods as guns by themselves are ok, but not stellar until you mod them out. Why do you have to buy int and craft everything for yourself? Role play as a dummy or bruiser and not spend anything on INT. Find what you need in the world or from traders, or have friends make what you need. I don't see much difference between 17 and 16 in terms of what you have to find, can you elaborate?
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Gun parts by themselves are largely irrelevant. However, when you link that into a broader quality system (1-600), a repair time/quality loss system, as well as other effects, then they serve to add flavor to the game and some small incentive to keep looting. Sure, the difference between a quality 425 and 455 part may be negligible on paper, but it does add something. What are the differences between two blue unmodded guns in A17? Once I have one or two, do I really need to look for more?

The problem with the INT tree is that everything that you can craft in the game is completely mapped out for you. This essentially makes every playthough the same.

The idea that choosing different perks for a different type of character can add replayability is an illusion. Firstly, I've played many playthroughs with groups and what I've noticed is that human nature dictates that people (generally) choose the same perks or very close to it on each playthrough. Yes, this is anecdotal but I believe that people just like to choose the perks that they have an affinity for. Secondly, even if I decide to "roleplay", I will still know that I will just need to get to X level or grind out Y XP to unlock some essential recipe. I now have to consciously choose to shoot myself in the foot to try to manufacture a facsimile of replayability?

If you want to add replayability, you have to have some unpredictability and the perks and the guns mods aren't enough. Plain and simple. Not everything, certainly not some essential recipes, but enough so that each playthrough has some elements of uncertainty. It's only the uncertainty that keeps me coming back for more.

 
The other option is to move some crafting around. Like to craft handguns you need the gunslinger perks and at least INT5. Multi requirements are tricky though so probably not a good idea.
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I'd love to see that in the game. Even if you guys don't want to go into the trouble of balancing multi requirements, is there any chance of XML support for it so the modders can attempt it?

Probably a limited economy of attribute points or make them cost more and more to reach 10. Then we could remove the level gates.
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Have you considered putting the range of attribute points available vs level gates on a sliding scale, so for example higher difficulty players have a lower level gate but have less points to spend?

 
Thanks. If your not a min maxer type you will love the new system. We're balancing it and improving it.
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I feel you hit a home run with this new system I'm so looking forward to seeing where it goes from here.

 
MADMOLE, This is exactly the problem. You are forcing us to play the game how you would play a game. Make some random rules in our head and role play, not everyone does not or enjoys that. Personally, I really enjoyed having to learn skills by finding books. Every single game was different. It was luck of the draw on the skills you got. Some games you could have a forge by day 2. Some game still couldn't build one by day 20 so you had to go find one to use or just make due. But see, that is how I like to play, it is different from how YOU like to play.
I see it like this. Before the game REALLY took off you were making a game that everyone would like so they would buy it. Now that it has sold a lot you have changed MUCH of what people liked about the game, what brought us into the game to begin with, and now are making a game YOU want to play, not necessarily a game WE all want to play.

That's my 2 cents.
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I have a suggestion for you. Rather than state what you miss describe in detail how you play the game and how the changes affect your gameplay. On the first release, a player explained in detail how they played and their experience with B197. That post played a small part in the bicycle moving from level 30 to level 20. You may have better luck getting the TFP to change/balance the game if you do that. For example, do you play SP or MP, how do you approach the game, etc. From my experience on the forums those posts have the most impact on TFP.

 
Speaking for myself and the 3 others I play on a dedicated server with. We all love the leveling now WAY more than the old system. Spam crafting will not be missed in the least. We were having an excellent time in b208 until the invincible tree bug ruined the game. 2 of the guys enjoyed older alphas but never stuck around long. I had been hearing it almost daily for the 2 weeks waiting for b221 about how excited they are to get going again. We'll be kicking off a new game tomorrow evening and can't wait (although it sounds like the tree bug remains so theres some trepidation about whether its worth playing til its fixed)

My only gripe the leveling, especially as I tend to be the one in the group building and such, is that earning XP is so heavily leaned toward zombie killing. Haven't played b221 yet so it may be better. The XP earned for building tasks is so minuscule that instead of working on the base prepping for horde night, Im forced to go out and hunt zombies in order to make any progress leveling. The shared XP does help a bit though.

 
Probably a limited economy of attribute points or make them cost more and more to reach 10. Then we could remove the level gates.
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Honestly, a hybrid approach might work best to accommodate the most play-styles. Being above the required level makes it cost 1 skill point, being below it makes it cost... something like LevelRequirement/10 or whatever is balanced.

That way, if you play patiently and wait until the required level for stuff, you're "rewarded" with more usable points. However, if there's something you want right now, you can get it at a penalty for overall usable points.

 
We could level gate the perks. We tried it with no gating, it was too easy. Crafting forges on day 1, purples by day 7, skip every vehicle.
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Try:

Removing just the level gate on attributes, keep the perk gate that you need a certain amount of attribute ranks.

You have 2 gates when you only need is one.

 
Thats just as immersion breaking as what we had. So crafting a stone tool doesn't yield any experience at crafting an iron one? Its a moot point we are definitely not going back to skills. What we can do is improve what we have in place now.
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Interesting.

I wonder if the Zeppelin guys thought the same thing.

How did that work out again?

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Try:Removing just the level gate on attributes, keep the perk gate that you need a certain amount of attribute ranks.

You have 2 gates when you only need is one.
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I have been playing this way the past experimental and loved it. It gave me the choice of going deeper where I wanted or needed it instead of being forced to go wide or having to save up points to spend later. Progression felt a lot more natural to me this way.

If I have to think too much about how and when to spend my points instead of just following a natural progression, the game gets too meta for me, which pulls me out of immersion.

It also makes the whole role playing aspect a lot more viable. Want to be a tech head? Spend the most points in INT, go deep. Want to be bat slinging grunt? Go STR.

 
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Try:Removing just the level gate on attributes, keep the perk gate that you need a certain amount of attribute ranks.

You have 2 gates when you only need is one.
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That's what we do on our server, and it plays well. Higher perks cost more points, so it's still tied to xp, just not by level.

And, you TRULY get to spend points where you want, /when/ you want. Dump them all in strength... Fine. Be in idiot who can't cook, shoot, craft or sneak.

And it plays great.

I encourage pimps to try it.

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Thats just as immersion breaking as what we had. So crafting a stone tool doesn't yield any experience at crafting an iron one? Its a moot point we are definitely not going back to skills. What we can do is improve what we have in place now.
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Just remove level gates. That's it...

 
I have been playing this way the past experimental and loved it. It gave me the choice of going deeper where I wanted or needed it instead of being forced to go wide or having to save up points to spend later. Progression felt a lot more natural to me this way.
If I have to think too much about how and when to spend my points instead of just following a natural progression, the game gets too meta for me, which pulls me out of immersion.

It also makes the whole role playing aspect a lot more viable. Want to be a tech head? Spend the most points in INT, go deep. Want to be bat slinging grunt? Go STR.
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this^

That's what we do on our server, and it plays well. Higher perks cost more points, so it's still tied to xp, just not by level.
And, you TRULY get to spend points where you want, /when/ you want. Dump them all in strength... Fine. Be in idiot who can't cook, shoot, craft or sneak.

And it plays great.

I encourage pimps to try it.
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and this^

 
The idea that choosing different perks for a different type of character can add replayability is an illusion. Firstly, I've played many playthroughs with groups and what I've noticed is that human nature dictates that people (generally) choose the same perks or very close to it on each playthrough. Yes, this is anecdotal but I believe that people just like to choose the perks that they have an affinity for.
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Nobody is forced to play differently, but the opportunity is there. I largely always play scavenger but vary with weapons (especially now in A17). One of my co-players played mostly scavenger but then he changed to miner.

If you want to add replayability, you have to have some unpredictability and the perks and the guns mods aren't enough. Plain and simple. Not everything, certainly not some essential recipes, but enough so that each playthrough has some elements of uncertainty. It's only the uncertainty that keeps me coming back for more.
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Here I agree. For example we should be able to assemble the vehicles if we found or bought all the parts. Uncertainty when we will get a vehicle and which one exactly might differentiate playthroughs.

 
It "feels like" they did both. they didn't directly buff harvesting xp, but harvesting feels faster (especially super early with stone axe) - so slightly more resources translates into slightly more xp...and zombie xp wasn't nerfed too badly...700 zombies are down to 550, and 1200s are down to 800 (also, the khaki shorts, grey tank top heavyset zombie is now in the 800 category instead of his former spot in the low xp category). I'd imagine it was because several changes they implemented were to alleviate the tedium and frustration of super early game, so slowing down the early game made more sense than allowing you to blast thru it even faster (changes like mods in traders, increased harvesting with early tools, the buffing of basic attacks, and the found pistols and shotguns being significantly stronger feeling).
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The moe buff in xp was needed. ♥♥♥♥ moe. Bikers do not kill me, fat guys do not kill me, rad wights do not kill me. Moe? That ♥♥♥♥er always gets me, always. Feral moe? That is RNGeasus punishing me for those crimes against nature i have done.

I am slowly getting used to the new xp system. I do not like the level gate, but on the flip side it has made me learn to not use the forge. I might just spite the funpimps by having a no forge run. It is possible now.

The awesome thing about 211 is the traders carrying rebar and concrete mix. I just spend 2/3rds of my quest money on those and by the time horde day rolls around i am living in a concrete castle. thanks to the xp nerf the blood moon is stupid easy.

I did not place ANY spikes or barbed wire for the day 7 horde. sure they breached my base and broke my food store box(tragedy) but that was just a minor setback. The xp nerf makes game stage so small that combat is pretty easy. Just save the heavy blow for the killing blow and you are all set. The stay down perk keeps them from getting when you knock them down.

The real meat and potatoes in this last update is how they buffed slow metabolism and minor 69er. Those are perks to take now.

 
Thats just as immersion breaking as what we had. So crafting a stone tool doesn't yield any experience at crafting an iron one? Its a moot point we are definitely not going back to skills. What we can do is improve what we have in place now.
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Why not achievement perks? If you run x amount of miles on a map, get a speed buff perk. If you kill x amounts of zombies, you get a damage buff. Die a lot? death penalty reduction buff or toughness buff. Craft a lot, an efficiency perk.

This would be an acceptable middle ground. we keep the new system, which to me feels like a person slowly adapting to a harsh environment,while adding some of the skill progression of the past that everyone loves and misses.

 
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