Jugginator
Tester
That comes from playing the game a ton. I've introduced a few new players lately and they're all terrified especially at night lol
PC Do game developers owe anything to the people buying their games?
- Thread starter Kyonshi
- Start date
That comes from playing the game a ton. I've introduced a few new players lately and they're all terrified especially at night lol
unholyjoe
QA
some people consider changing a baby's dirty diaper as "horror"
some feel dealing with hard headed kids to be "horror"
some consider teachers as "horror"
most feel that working is a "horror"
some act as tho missing the "LBD" in this game as "horror"
the list can go on.. and that itself is a "horror"
some feel dealing with hard headed kids to be "horror"
some consider teachers as "horror"
most feel that working is a "horror"
some act as tho missing the "LBD" in this game as "horror"
the list can go on.. and that itself is a "horror"
the horror must have been your play style.. i feel for them
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Jugginator
Tester
khzmusik
Well-known member
I lost the game too. On a related note: goddamn you.
On topic: TFP owe people that bought the game, what was promised. Nothing more, nothing less. If that wasn't true of games in general, the nobody would have the right to criticize Aliens: Colonial Marines or No Man's Sky.
But, 7D2D is nothing like those debacles. In my mind, TFP have mostly delivered on what they promised, and what they haven't delivered on is still on the roadmap. So, they haven't delivered it yet. Bandits are a good example (and though they've certainly teased much more than bandits, I don't think they ever promised anything more than that).
In the meantime, we still got a huge amount of stuff that is great but was never promised. RWG is a good example, and the new RWG tiles feature is a great example.
Also, since they made the game so easy to mod, anything they don't have in game - or have in game but we don't like - can pretty easily be redone to our tastes.
Having said that, I do miss the days when the game was a little more survival-oriented, with a little more horror, and not going in the direction of a looter shooter with crafting and survival elements. I bought the game because I saw folks play A15 on YouTube, and after a very short time it struck me that playing SP was a very different experience. On the first night, I was by myself with no other humans around, starving, and I had to leave the safety of my cleared POI just so I could find some yucca and not die. I was creeping around in the dark the whole time, and as you might expect, I was ambushed by a group of fast zombies that I could barely see in the dark. It was almost like Outlast or Amnesia.
I still miss that experience. If I was a better game designer, I would figure out how to mod that feeling in again. I'm trying...
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Roland
Community Moderator
Horror and Survival Horror are two different genres. Survival Horror specifically refers to games in which you don’t have enough resources to simply blast your way through everything. You have run away a lot, hide, use some stealth, and sometimes take wounds that give you lingering status effects that make survival more difficult. Sanity levels are often a feature of that genre.
7 Days to Die was never meant to be a dedicated Survival Horror game. If that aspect is what someone latches onto and wants to be dominant then they are going to be disappointed. Survival Horror is one of the genres the game borrows elements from.
Horror is completely different and this game has never been all that horrific. Some of the effects we will see in A20 (unrevealed as of yet btw) will add actual horror elements to the game more than we’ve seen previously.
If you are a tower defense fan and you want this game to be a tower defense game you will be disappointed.
If you are Stealth fan and you want this game to be a stealth game you will be disappointed.
If you are a survival fan and want this game to be pure survival you will be disappointed.
If you are a crafting fan and want this game to be a full crafting game you will be disappointed.
If you are a classic zombie game fan and you want this game to be a traditional zombie game you will be disappointed.
If you are a RPG fan and want this game to be a fully featured RPG you will be disappointed.
If you enjoy how the game has melded elements of all these genres into a single game then you are picking up what the devs are putting down and probably view their path as a good one.
As far as being scared when you play, you have to watch new players. My brother sat on the roof of a mobile home refusing to drop down a hole in the roof onto a mattress below because of what he feared might come at him in close quarters. He eventually backed away dropped down the side and busted the door open instead. That’s pretty awesome. OTOH, I remember going back to replay Silent Hill because I remembered the horror. Guess what was missing the second time through knowing everything? Does that then make Silent Hill neither a Horror game or a Survival Horror game because after the first time it was no longer horrific and scary like it was the first time?
7 Days to Die was never meant to be a dedicated Survival Horror game. If that aspect is what someone latches onto and wants to be dominant then they are going to be disappointed. Survival Horror is one of the genres the game borrows elements from.
Horror is completely different and this game has never been all that horrific. Some of the effects we will see in A20 (unrevealed as of yet btw) will add actual horror elements to the game more than we’ve seen previously.
If you are a tower defense fan and you want this game to be a tower defense game you will be disappointed.
If you are Stealth fan and you want this game to be a stealth game you will be disappointed.
If you are a survival fan and want this game to be pure survival you will be disappointed.
If you are a crafting fan and want this game to be a full crafting game you will be disappointed.
If you are a classic zombie game fan and you want this game to be a traditional zombie game you will be disappointed.
If you are a RPG fan and want this game to be a fully featured RPG you will be disappointed.
If you enjoy how the game has melded elements of all these genres into a single game then you are picking up what the devs are putting down and probably view their path as a good one.
As far as being scared when you play, you have to watch new players. My brother sat on the roof of a mobile home refusing to drop down a hole in the roof onto a mattress below because of what he feared might come at him in close quarters. He eventually backed away dropped down the side and busted the door open instead. That’s pretty awesome. OTOH, I remember going back to replay Silent Hill because I remembered the horror. Guess what was missing the second time through knowing everything? Does that then make Silent Hill neither a Horror game or a Survival Horror game because after the first time it was no longer horrific and scary like it was the first time?
please tell me you’d been winning since the 90’s until this moment!I lost the game too. On a related note: goddamn you.
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khzmusik
Well-known member
please tell me you’d been winning since the 90’s until this moment!
I actually introduced The Game to some of my younger compatriots when I was on tour with them in the mid-2010's. Believe me, every single @%$#ing day someone lost that game, usually just out of nowhere while we were all trying to sleep. I really hoped that I would never lose again after that. Well, as they say, the best plans of mice.
Regarding the type of game that is 7D2D - sure, it definitely takes from all sorts of genres, and in general that's to TFP credit. But, that doesn't mean it can't get better at any particular genre. Sure, it's never going to be Penumbra or whatever, but that doesn't mean that it can't better incorporate similar gameplay elements. It's not like making this more of a survival horror game would mean removing the fun parts of crafting, tower defence, or whatever.
But, this goes back to the original question. TFP don't owe me a survival horror game. I might like that, but many others wouldn't, probably including TFP themselves. They have to go with either their vision or what they believe will appeal the most to the wider game base (or ideally both). Nothing wrong with that.
Also, regarding survival games in general (not even necessarily horror). It's incredibly tricky to do, especially without a specific end game (as in Subnautica) - which usually means limited replay value. If it's a survival game, much of the appeal is in the struggle to survive; but "progression" means you survive easier. Basically this ends up with a game that rewards players with a game that they enjoy less as they progress. (This is definitely not limited to 7D2D either.)
It still would be nice if bare survival was just as hard as the game progresses, even with whatever perks/skills/recipes you learned, but I've yet to see a game that does that successfully. So, having all those other gameplay elements is definitely a plus for people playing 7D2D.
Roland
Community Moderator
To a point. Better in most people's minds means deeper and more fully developed. At some point they have to stop and be happy with the depth they've chosen. Usually how well an element is implemented depends on how much of a fan of that type of gameplay you are. I love the guns in the game but talk to a gun nut and TFP didn't go nearly far enough. I'd be down with insanity effects to make the horror aspects more robust but people not into all that would want a hard pass and say the horror part of the game is as robust as it needs to be. People who love farming games would probably be ecstatic if TFP spent six months adding seasonal effects, different types of fertilizers and chemicals, dramatically increasing the types of crops, adding fruit trees, and then adding a better nutrition system for breads, fruits, vegetables, meat and making harvesting and planting have more depth. There have been many threads calling for "better stealth" but I'm happy with the stealth footprint currently in the game. When Madmole talked about fixing water he meant just keeping it basic so that it functions properly but people who had their fan radar attuned to Seafaring gameplay immediately went to rafts, currents, fishing, water zombie lifeforms, etc.
There just isn't time and resources to go too far in any element so yeah, they should just improve the few elements I like and that would fix it.
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khzmusik
Well-known member
Actually, you might be proving my point without intending to.
As I look at your list of features, I can't see a single one that would make anyone like the game less. Given infinite time and (human) resources, I would love it if TFP implemented every single one of them, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Of course, that's a big caveat. Even if 7D2D was in alpha for as long as TFP existed as a company, they wouldn't be able to implement everything on that list.
Luckily TFP have taken a good stance to modding, and I think that's the right thing to do. Put the skeletons in place and let others who are interested flesh them out. As such, the only minor criticism I have of the game at this point, is that it's not yet completely set up for modders to include whatever game mechanics they want. But this is a feature like any other, and TFP are still improving on that as well. So I can't really fault them.
EDIT: At this point there's a little voice in my head saying "you're arguing with Roland on the internet." So I'm going to shut up now.
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Roland
Community Moderator
I don't feel like we're arguing. We're just a couple of guys where one guy ruined the other guy's long standing record of not thinking about something.
I would love for any of those things to be implemented as well and I'm glad we have the modding talent we do so that we all have a good chance to get most of those things at some point.
I would love for any of those things to be implemented as well and I'm glad we have the modding talent we do so that we all have a good chance to get most of those things at some point.
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Viktoriusiii
New member
if you make a baby-diaper-changing simulator and classify that as horror, you will be sued for false advertising.
I mean you might be able to to do it in a satiric way with jumpscares, making fun of modern horror games (that is ACTUALLY a pretty funny idea)
BUT it is not a horrorgame and you know it.
It is a clearly defined genre with clear markers of what makes it horror.
the only way I could explain this is that they do not know where the loot is and therefor do not have weapons/ammo.
Which is nice. But only reinforces my point (if it is the case) that the gunloot is FAR too over the top for this game to be a horrorgame.
But if you know a different reason, please be my guest. But I don#t know how you could be scared with an ak47 and 50 bullets
Jost Amman
Well-known member
What is it with you and game genres?
Before, we had a heated discussion about this (in your opinion) NOT being (also) a Tower Defense game.
Now, you're having another heated discussion about this NOT being (also) a Horror game.
Why don't we flip the script, and right off the bat you just tell us all, ignorant people, what this game is? :confused2: :suspicious:
...
the only way I could explain this is that they do not know where the loot is and therefor do not have weapons/ammo.
Which is nice. But only reinforces my point (if it is the case) that the gunloot is FAR too over the top for this game to be a horrorgame.
But if you know a different reason, please be my guest. But I don#t know how you could be scared with an ak47 and 50 bullets
Delivering a game that does only lipservice to one genre that should have been delivered is actually something that could even legally have a chance, theoretically. That is just a way of saying that that argument has merit
And I agree that guns early destroy that horror element. But it also is clear that that is one of the most malleable things in the game. That doesn't even need a new alpha, that can be changed inbetween experimentals with some balancing, or a better difficulty setting or a relatively simple mod. And some of it is even on the road map for A20. Less ammo is "promised" as the traders were still not balanced in A19.
The damage pipe weapons will do is unknown and may be small enough in higher difficulties to not unset that early balance. But with them in the game an ak could drop even later in the game.
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Viktoriusiii
New member
An open world looter shooter with simulation and strategy sprincled in.
If you want to use the absolute bare bones description, you could use "TD" as in "there will at some time be a horde that comes in waves".
Also it was a TD game in A17. That was the problem. They followed one path and one path only. It still is to an extent (you can still funnel them into a corridor), but my argument is it SHOULDN'T be, because that means it devalues the aspect of defending a parimiter.
You can not have parimiter defence (3D where everything needs to be defended) and TD "one path only".
That was my whole argument. It is mutually exclusive.
1 =/= >1
Honestly, traderammo was never something I bought (maybe just to stock up for hordenight, because you need like 3000 bullets a night), but never for exploration.
The problem is with the lootcontainers at the end of a POI. They just give so SO SOOO much of everything, that you don't need to loot anything else, except for ressources.
Remember back in the day? When you were SO HAPPY if your city had a POI with a gunsafe in it?
You had to unlock it for 50 seconds, but you could hear zombies coming closer? Or even with the pickaxe where it lured Z's to your position?
Now you have 3 crates, a gunsafe, one or two ammobags and if it is a bigger poi a gunsafe AND a big chest thing in every poi.
That just screws the balance.
They should make it simply (if they can, but I heard they have so much space now for new POIs):
House (<T4) version normal: 1-2 boxes (working stiff, maybe even shotgun messiah or shamway... and MAYBE every 5th has a secret stach
House (<T4) version clear quest: 1-2 boxes, 2 ammocontainers, and every 2-3 pois have a gunsafe.
T4 can have an extra secret stach when clearing
and T5 & 6 can have what they have now WHEN DOING THE CLEAR QUEST.
That would already make it feel so much less like a looter-shooter.
It would still not quite be horror again, but it would give a reason to be scared.
I've made a list of things I think they should change (where nothing was any BIG effort, stuff like reviving a Z a random amount of seconds after it has been killed)
but I suppose I just don't know what I'm talking about
Matt115
New member
I have something like that in cod on outbreake but... by bug. long story short - they change multipler of dmg so echo didn't die by one shot of ballstic knife so he blow up me in the face. but it was bug
Yeah but most people say that f.e.a.r 1 is horror fps game but f.e.a.r is fps with elements of horror. this situation with dead space etc.some people consider changing a baby's dirty diaper as "horror"
some feel dealing with hard headed kids to be "horror"
some consider teachers as "horror"
most feel that working is a "horror"
some act as tho missing the "LBD" in this game as "horror"
the list can go on.. and that itself is a "horror"
the horror must have been your play style.. i feel for them
Yeah i know what you mean. but looks at drones, new guns models, junk guns , old bandits models etc this looks for you more like f.e.a.r, paranoja, cry of fear , haunted house mod or mad max fallout ?To a point. Better in most people's minds means deeper and more fully developed. At some point they have to stop and be happy with the depth they've chosen. Usually how well an element is implemented depends on how much of a fan of that type of gameplay you are. I love the guns in the game but talk to a gun nut and TFP didn't go nearly far enough. I'd be down with insanity effects to make the horror aspects more robust but people not into all that would want a hard pass and say the horror part of the game is as robust as it needs to be. People who love farming games would probably be ecstatic if TFP spent six months adding seasonal effects, different types of fertilizers and chemicals, dramatically increasing the types of crops, adding fruit trees, and then adding a better nutrition system for breads, fruits, vegetables, meat and making harvesting and planting have more depth. There have been many threads calling for "better stealth" but I'm happy with the stealth footprint currently in the game. When Madmole talked about fixing water he meant just keeping it basic so that it functions properly but people who had their fan radar attuned to Seafaring gameplay immediately went to rafts, currents, fishing, water zombie lifeforms, etc.
There just isn't time and resources to go too far in any element so yeah, they should just improve the few elements I like and that would fix it.
Roland how much time is needed to make 1 character model ? let's say 1 week and you have 2 artists so 2 models per week. you make 4 models of "ghosts". after that sometimes in some POI and night you can see for while ghost as your hallucinatory. that's how you can have horror using small number of resources
Honestly i don't have modding talent but i think added random spawning for few second "ghost" can be easier that add drones. and maybe add hanging guy on rope, some 5 corpses model and them in bigger number and on streets + make a day darker and this how you can change 7dtd into horror game .
@Roland this will a lot of easier that add a faction system for bandits
I was not talking about trader ammo but the quest rewards. Eventually TFP could just reduce the initial stock a trader has and let it grow over the days to get a right balance with the inventory.
And I always said that loot abundance should be changed with the overall difficulty setting. But do you play at 50% loot abundance or lower (a setting that already exists) ? If not, this is your own fault as wellv
In the first days in A19 you don't find an AK in a gun safe. You find blunderbusses and clubs. But what really upsets the balance is that in alphas before A17 the progression was from blunderbuss to pistol to shotgun to ak. Now AKs are supposed to be tier1 on the same level than a pistol and they are not. But they drop relatively early in the game
Don't get me wrong, I like the new 7D2D with more weapons, this is much better for variety of gameplay. But the new weapon balance isn't there yet. Disclaimer: I usually play with friends and at a lower difficulty level than my knowledge of the game would suggest, at higher difficulty levels maybe even an AK would not be enough to get out of any situation.
Anyway, without bandits and a final polishing Beta this IS just a momentary view of the game and the feel of the game will still change.
Possibly, but I think without reducing ammo this won't make any difference for experienced players. Also this is already the case, a tier2 POI has much less loot boxes than a tier4/5. And experienced players know how to exploit the tier4/5s in early game. No chance in hell to make them forget.
But maybe overall there are too many loot boxes with too much loot in it. Which brings me back to the loot abundance setting which really should be part of the difficulty settings.
That would already make it feel so much less like a looter-shooter.
It would still not quite be horror again, but it would give a reason to be scared.
I've made a list of things I think they should change (where nothing was any BIG effort, stuff like reviving a Z a random amount of seconds after it has been killed)
but I suppose I just don't know what I'm talking about
We are all hobby game designers here and think we have the solution, including me. But usually more than one solution is possible and they made it their profession and made this game so they could choose which solution they want. Our only power here is to tell them when a solution is not working. This is one of the hardest facts for players in any EA to accept, you can discuss anything, but you are never the designer of the game even if you feel nearly like one.
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Matt115
New member
honestly i can agree with you but mods can be problems too. By mods i mean "great ideas" of some people. honestly most of mods to l4d2 , skyrim or 7dtd or "for fun" lub "porno" mod that's why enemy terrytory died. So i lot of mods add thing not suits to 7dtd. damn i want to see mod similiar to immersive creature to skyrim but ti 7dtdActually, you might be proving my point without intending to.
As I look at your list of features, I can't see a single one that would make anyone like the game less. Given infinite time and (human) resources, I would love it if TFP implemented every single one of them, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Of course, that's a big caveat. Even if 7D2D was in alpha for as long as TFP existed as a company, they wouldn't be able to implement everything on that list.
Luckily TFP have taken a good stance to modding, and I think that's the right thing to do. Put the skeletons in place and let others who are interested flesh them out. As such, the only minor criticism I have of the game at this point, is that it's not yet completely set up for modders to include whatever game mechanics they want. But this is a feature like any other, and TFP are still improving on that as well. So I can't really fault them.
EDIT: At this point there's a little voice in my head saying "you're arguing with Roland on the internet." So I'm going to shut up now.
Viktoriusiii
New member
@meganoth you talk about ammo...
and that I should play with 50% loot (which I already did... but it completely crashes the gamebalance)
But you forget one thing:
You shouldn't have the ammo Day 1-7 10PM.
But you need it for the hordenight.
I need about 100 bullets day 1-7 exploring, and I need 1500+ for hordenight (it scales with gamestage, but the ratio is more or less the same)
If there is less ammo, I can not defend for hordenight.
I would like it more, if I have the option to buy super expensive ammo at the trader for every weapon (I mean you can make endless ammo pretty quickly, if you are just lucky with the chemstation), but I want weapons to have more of an impact again.
Make weapons jam, scaling with their tier (with 6 never jamming) Maybe instant loss of 100 quality with one shot and you have to reload.
Make autofire guns SUPER rare and even then, let the durability scale exponentially (T1 50 shots per repair, T6 3000+ shots)
Make me never feel safe again. And those two are just the tip of the iceberg.
I know this is inevitable in the lategame. But then the genre switches to a builder and explorer type game, and that is ok.
PS:
just to rant a bit more.
and that I should play with 50% loot (which I already did... but it completely crashes the gamebalance)
But you forget one thing:
You shouldn't have the ammo Day 1-7 10PM.
But you need it for the hordenight.
I need about 100 bullets day 1-7 exploring, and I need 1500+ for hordenight (it scales with gamestage, but the ratio is more or less the same)
If there is less ammo, I can not defend for hordenight.
I would like it more, if I have the option to buy super expensive ammo at the trader for every weapon (I mean you can make endless ammo pretty quickly, if you are just lucky with the chemstation), but I want weapons to have more of an impact again.
Make weapons jam, scaling with their tier (with 6 never jamming) Maybe instant loss of 100 quality with one shot and you have to reload.
Make autofire guns SUPER rare and even then, let the durability scale exponentially (T1 50 shots per repair, T6 3000+ shots)
Make me never feel safe again. And those two are just the tip of the iceberg.
I know this is inevitable in the lategame. But then the genre switches to a builder and explorer type game, and that is ok.
PS:
just to rant a bit more.
Remember when they said they would bring weaponstats?
HA! Have you guys EVER felt a difference? MAYBE in a pistol, because +3 damage with a base of 15 is quite a lot)
But honestly, who cares about that little damage increase?
I was hoping for really individualized parts... instead they merged weaponparts (which is... ok I guess, but their new system is just so boring)
I think they should give guns "effects" like the player has.
"dirty" -> 5% increased chance for jamming, 10% lower accuracy
"extremely dirty" -> 10% increased chance for jamming, 20% lower accuracy
"wet" -> 5% chance of bullet launching and weapon needs immediate repair.
"used" -> 1% chance of jamming, when it jams 30% chance to get "old"
"old" -> 0.01% chance (increasing over time) of breaking instantly, giving you only one weaponpart
"new" -> halves all negative buffs
"self-made" -> 10% quicker fire, it takes 50% longer for negative status effects to trigger
those are just off the top of my head to make weapons a bit more complex.
I know TFPs hate complexity, or at least think that in 90% of cases, complexity is not as important as inclusivity/accessability, but a man can dream.
HA! Have you guys EVER felt a difference? MAYBE in a pistol, because +3 damage with a base of 15 is quite a lot)
But honestly, who cares about that little damage increase?
I was hoping for really individualized parts... instead they merged weaponparts (which is... ok I guess, but their new system is just so boring)
I think they should give guns "effects" like the player has.
"dirty" -> 5% increased chance for jamming, 10% lower accuracy
"extremely dirty" -> 10% increased chance for jamming, 20% lower accuracy
"wet" -> 5% chance of bullet launching and weapon needs immediate repair.
"used" -> 1% chance of jamming, when it jams 30% chance to get "old"
"old" -> 0.01% chance (increasing over time) of breaking instantly, giving you only one weaponpart
"new" -> halves all negative buffs
"self-made" -> 10% quicker fire, it takes 50% longer for negative status effects to trigger
those are just off the top of my head to make weapons a bit more complex.
I know TFPs hate complexity, or at least think that in 90% of cases, complexity is not as important as inclusivity/accessability, but a man can dream.
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BFT2020
Well-known member
You can survive Horde nights without having to use a ton of ammo (or very little at all).
I did a recent playthrough where I was set at Survivalist, Intelligence Build, max zombies. I did use a mod that greatly decrease the amounts of materials you got looting and harvesting. For the first 4 Horde nights, I just used arrows and my traps / melee. The only time I brought out the guns is if I needed to thin the crowd some or had to deal with an annoying vulture (and this was more around Horde #3). Even after I started using guns more often (mostly hunting rifle for headshots), I did not go through a lot of ammo to defend myself.
The playstyle you are playing, you might need a ton of ammo to survive.; but it is not a requirement to do so (or specifically a need).
Matt115
New member
I was not talking about trader ammo but the quest rewards. Eventually TFP could just reduce the initial stock a trader has and let it grow over the days to get a right balance with the inventory.
And I always said that loot abundance should be changed with the overall difficulty setting. But do you play at 50% loot abundance or lower (a setting that already exists) ? If not, this is your own fault as wellv
In the first days in A19 you don't find an AK in a gun safe. You find blunderbusses and clubs. But what really upsets the balance is that in alphas before A17 the progression was from blunderbuss to pistol to shotgun to ak. Now AKs are supposed to be tier1 on the same level than a pistol and they are not. But they drop relatively early in the game
Don't get me wrong, I like the new 7D2D with more weapons, this is much better for variety of gameplay. But the new weapon balance isn't there yet. Disclaimer: I usually play with friends and at a lower difficulty level than my knowledge of the game would suggest, at higher difficulty levels maybe even an AK would not be enough to get out of any situation.
Anyway, without bandits and a final polishing Beta this IS just a momentary view of the game and the feel of the game will still change.
Possibly, but I think without reducing ammo this won't make any difference for experienced players. Also this is already the case, a tier2 POI has much less loot boxes than a tier4/5. And experienced players know how to exploit the tier4/5s in early game. No chance in hell to make them forget.
But maybe overall there are too many loot boxes with too much loot in it. Which brings me back to the loot abundance setting which really should be part of the difficulty settings.
We are all hobby game designers here and think we have the solution, including me. But usually more than one solution is possible and they made it their profession and made this game so they could choose which solution they want. Our only power here is to tell them when a solution is not working. This is one of the hardest facts for players in any EA to accept, you can discuss anything, but you are never the designer of the game even if you feel nearly like one.
honestly i have idea about this problem but it would need a lot of works : 1. quality have only influence only on number of mods and durability.
2. guns have less ammo but bigger dmg ( idk about value but x1.5 and x2 bigger
3. weak zombie variant - you know old corpses , starved , burdned, decyied etc
this would change guns into something rare but a powerfull