PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

  • Newly Updated

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Check out the newest reveals by Madmole

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Over 100 new perk books with set collecting and bonuses

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1
Status
Not open for further replies.
How much time this steam sale take? I need to buy this game to my friend but i can't pay through my online card so i need to buy paysafe card. I need like 2 more days. Please god be gracious

- - - Updated - - -

And now they're all dead, with bottle stuck in their head

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So i’m coming in late on the discussion but I really just stopped checking on development progress regularly since I don’t thunk this game will ever get finished. ...and that sentiment is well deserved after reading the original post. “Overhaul” the buff system, “Overhaul” the weapon system, “Overhaul”...
I'm pretty sure the game will get finished. After all TFP have build (still extending) a great framework for any future games they will make. If they wanted to "cash grab", they would have wrapped this game up by now and would work on the next one. The fact that this game still gets so extensive updates means they really want to deliver with this one!

Overhaul? How about “finish” ANYTHING you EVER start? How many times have these things been overhauled already? Weapons, at least 3 times since A8 for example.
Overhaul might not be the best word to describe the whole situation. As i understand, the first buff system was basic and the new will be much more extensive and better optimized. Both really good things.

But as far as weapon system goes, they are not actually "overhauling" the whole thing. They are extending it by adding depth and content. The gun parts were probably only put in because by the time of A16 they had not yet made mods for weapons nor was the framework ready. So actually it's not like they built this weapons system until it was ready and now they decided to throw it out and make a new one. With every new alpha they build on the previous stuff. And they would have never left it unfinished but then there would not have been A16 for us.

Also, some systems cannot be finished before other aspects of the game are developed far enough. Interaction between the systems add great depth and features "finished" by A5 might feel completely underdeveloped in A16.

Great idea: how about you get a handle on the Attention Deficit Disorder and get the game running at a decent frame rate, stop stuff from randomly disappearing, crashes, lockups, add some content, and leave the major systems design alone?
A lot of this stuff is for beta stage. (btw, they actually are adding more content all the time) Optimizing systems before completing them might end up wasting a lot of time and thus pushing the beta even further. They have to find a reasonable balance.

 
Whatever. There is no way we'd go back to the old system so get used to the idea. ;)

If you ask any modders - who actually dig into these systems and what can be done with them - they'd be more like

It's a small scale scripting language with triggers, events, requirements, and math operations...

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Whatever. There is no way we'd go back to the old system so get used to the idea. ;)
I'm actually siding with you (this time). I was commenting on what y'all should call it. Overhauled doesn't really apply.

 
I'm actually siding with you (this time). I was commenting on what y'all should call it. Overhauled doesn't really apply.
Funny how even when siding with them, people still believe you're actually disagreeing. :D

 
Funny how even when siding with them, people still believe you're actually disagreeing. :D
lol, it's the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" syndrome...we have been hearing Guppy disagree so long now that is just automatically seems he still is...even when agreeing.

 
Whatever. There is no way we'd go back to the old system so get used to the idea. ;)
If you ask any modders - who actually dig into these systems and what can be done with them - they'd be more like

A small scripting language? Now that's good news. I'm kind of surprised your implementing it from scratch. I know how much of a PITA it is to parse nested maths operations, many years ago I implemented a CoreWar "redcode" compiler from scratch and that was painful enough. If you're willing to do the work then fair play to you. :-)

 
lol, it's the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" syndrome...we have been hearing Guppy disagree so long now that is just automatically seems he still is...even when agreeing.
Or the extended version "the boy who cried wolves are falling from the sky".

I may be combining too many things into one. Guppy is his own self-fulfilling fable of disgruntlement.

 
Or the extended version "the boy who cried wolves are falling from the sky".
I may be combining too many things into one. Guppy is his own self-fulfilling fable of disgruntlement.
But it's still my favorite game, and I still spend 99% of my gaming time in 7days, so it's not disgruntlement as much as it is "passion".

I see what's stupid (health hit bars, leveled loot, no more 1 block crouching, lack of lean feature, console port, streamer pre-access, etc) and I say my peace. :)

 
But it's still my favorite game, and I still spend 99% of my gaming time in 7days, so it's not disgruntlement as much as it is "passion".
I see what's stupid (health hit bars, leveled loot, no more 1 block crouching, lack of lean feature, console port, streamer pre-access, etc) and I say my peace. :)

:playful:
 
Trolland!

So i’m coming in late on the discussion but I really just stopped checking on development progress regularly since I don’t thunk this game will ever get finished. ...and that sentiment is well deserved after reading the original post. “Overhaul” the buff system, “Overhaul” the weapon system, “Overhaul”...

Overhaul? How about “finish” ANYTHING you EVER start? How many times have these things been overhauled already? Weapons, at least 3 times since A8 for example.

Great idea: how about you get a handle on the Attention Deficit Disorder and get the game running at a decent frame rate, stop stuff from randomly disappearing, crashes, lockups, add some content, and leave the major systems design alone?
In b4 Trolland gets 'im!

 
In b4 Trolland gets 'im!
Look, as many people as there are that feel this way, we can't deny their feelings; sure, they're wrong, but that they FEEL they are right does in fact say something about the communication. I don't know why MM is doing is social experiment, but if his customers genuinely feel like the game isn't going anywhere (and again, I DO know better), then it is something they should address with something other than an edit that says "No doom and gloom posts".

 
Horray - Finally modders have the means to undo any performance improvement of TFP with highly nested loops :fat:
Oh wait, you didn't list loops there.

But seriously: Hooray!! Is it a subset of C#? Or (I shudder to think about it) still encoded as xml? (http://conferences.idealliance.org/extreme/html/2004/Kepser01/EML2004Kepser01.html)
I'd be surprised if it was any more complicated than a basic C clone with memory management already sorted, the sort of thing you'd use to program an arduino. That would be more than enough for the purposes of modding.

I'm with you on the dislike of xml. I can do it but it's bloody awful to parse.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Look, as many people as there are that feel this way, we can't deny their feelings; sure, they're wrong, but that they FEEL they are right does in fact say something about the communication. I don't know why MM is doing is social experiment, but if his customers genuinely feel like the game isn't going anywhere (and again, I DO know better), then it is something they should address with something other than an edit that says "No doom and gloom posts".
It's ok if one feels like the game is going nowhere; what's not ok is to post angry and disrespectful comments on the forums without even actually giving out details on what your problem with the game is.

 
It's ok if one feels like the game is going nowhere; what's not ok is to post angry and disrespectful comments on the forums without even actually giving out details on what your problem with the game is.
A lot of people aren't able to articulate their frustrations online w/o resorting to tom foolery, but it doesn't mean they're not frustrated, and it doesn't mean their frustrations aren't valid (to them).

...and I think that 1) We owe it to them to help them see the light, and 2) The pimps should put a bit more effort in making people NOT feel like the game is abandonware... I mean sure, /we/ know that's far, far from the truth, but only because we try to know. Communication has always been a pimp weakness. Whether or not communication is important at this stage, well, I dunno, this is my first foray into the EA concept.

 
A lot of people aren't able to articulate their frustrations online w/o resorting to tom foolery, but it doesn't mean they're not frustrated, and it doesn't mean their frustrations aren't valid (to them).
...and I think that 1) We owe it to them to help them see the light, and 2) The pimps should put a bit more effort in making people NOT feel like the game is abandonware... I mean sure, /we/ know that's far, far from the truth, but only because we try to know. Communication has always been a pimp weakness. Whether or not communication is important at this stage, well, I dunno, this is my first foray into the EA concept.
I'm just saying that exposing your concerns in such manner is not gonna make the devs (or anyone for that matter) feel like helping them, because it shouldn't.

The pimps could basically stay completely silent about what they're doing next and never say a word besides one or two update blogs here and there, then one day release the update without even warning anyone just like many other devs out there. I know they've been distant and less communicative than normal in this new A17, but they still release videos and post information about everything that's being worked on in the update.

Lastly, addressing your 2nd point, it doesn't matter what the pimps do. There's always gonna be someone who will never be happy with the game's progress or direction and will post their frustration in the forums. Now, in my opinion the only way for their concerns to actually be heard is to at least explain them properly.

 
@Kinyajuu

Thanks for you and everyone for their hard work on this game. all ready an alltime favorite and you guys just keep making it better! Have a great year!

 
We're much more quiet for A17 because a lot of the changes going in are system changes that let game features talk to each other, until the new content is created in XML for the new setup, there just isn't much to show. (That and I need to get into the UI bits on it and clean them up)


The reason some things got overhauled was because I was tasked with redesigning the item modifiers, progression/skills, buffs then making them all able to touch each other.

The overhaul process (Items):

What happened is that in A17 we were bringing in a better loot loop in that even as a level 1 you'll be able to find a full gun instead of part of one. It won't have very good stats but will likely come with a mod or attachment of some sort. Removing a mod has a chance to break the weapon where an attachment can be put in and taken out at will. This changed the items to only really need 6 tiers. The tiny variations in value weren't fun and were pure vertical progression.

This required us to be able to still use a system similar to the old one that would allow modification of values. Like the parts mods also will modify values on the item they live in. Adding this in required me to build a new central class to process the modifier values.

The overhaul process (Ranged Weapons):

Ranged weapons have always felt wrong to me. The crosshair spread didn't represent the cone of fire and on top of that the FOV/resolution would change accuracy. I implemented the same fire cone code that I put in for the turrets. With that the new events/effects allowed us to set up things like clip size, fire rate, accuracy kickback as well as many other things. You can basically simulate just about any weapon now via xml values.

The overhaul process (Progression):

With the new system we wanted to be able to have chunkier skills and perks and less of the incremental gains. With that we wanted to be able to punish the player through their progression stats via illnesses and injuries to keep things interesting. While testing I noticed the skills system made tons of garbage and we don't want that so I went in and redid it to be lightweight and to not make garbage to clean up.

The overhaul process (Buffs):

Finally the buffs, these guys have timers. Similar to progression, very similar. So I designed a system that was nearly identical to the new progression system. This keeps it lightweight, only storing the timer and a pointer to the single instance of that buff so there is only ever one instance of the heavy data needed. With the buffs we found that actions also needed fired off for particle effects so I started adding an action system. Also at the same time it was discovered that there would need to be requirements to keep buffs from firing something too often or to clean up after itself on login/logout. The need for this kind of cleanup added the need for "events" these started out as simply onBuffStart, onBuffUpdate, and onBuffEnd so we could do a few things but has now grown to include everything from gaining xp to placing a block.

The overhaul process(Overall):

So basically the needs of each area added to the effect system I initially put together for just the items, then as each system was worked on, instead of shoe-horning it in and causing even more garbage in ram, I instead opted to redesign them from the ground up knowing exactly how they'll be used at this point in our development. I left it as open as possible so we can expand in any way we want/need with little or no code support.

So, sometimes you hit a point where you have to tear things down. Oganically growing code becomes very unwieldy the longer it exists and sometimes a rewrite is needed to encompass all the other features that came along after it.

/data_dump
Thank you for the run down! Can't wait!

"Overhaul" the new "TM" for 2018 get it while it's hot! ;)

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top