PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[caatalyst]

Yes I am because simply saying something is an exploit because you can't get into a base or work out a way is obvious to a blind man let alone some one whom doesn't play alot of PvP etc.
Did you not clarify it can also be a exploit in pve blah blah blah. So this also allowing me to comment.

Example have you ever ran a country... no but you have ideas and beliefs etc on how it should be yeh... same thing here.. that's even more HILARIOUS.

Ps... I forgot you can't place frames etc in someone's base protected by a lcb. Which really I can walk into your house and place a pile of dirt I don't see why you can't here....

Well guess you had best destroy each block touching the ground and collapse the base altho you won't get that precious loot the person won't have a base lol. But this is greifing and not thought highly of..

Maybe use frames on the outside of the lcb claim area and build it across to the top of the base and destroy the roof block thus bypassing all the hatches... altho prolly be killed before you get in lol

Ps.... I know use your own hatches next to the lcb claim area to get to the top faster then have the top hatch facing sideways and it will teleport you into their base at top level:-D.

Right let me lay out a stereotypical scenario for you in PVP because clearly it hasn't hit home despite the fact that I've tried to already give you a quick run down. If you actually played PVP you wouldn't be making a lot of comments that you are because you would understand the problems it has.

A player builds a tower base, surrounds it with a 5 block wide pit to bedrock. They've got multiple LCBs hidden in their tower at different locations providing only 16x protection. The LCB covers 40x40 which is standard now since electricity was brought in.

Lets say they build their entrance level with the ground that's at around +1 and you manage to find a way in (For the sake of this conversation this part can be easy when usually it's not). Bare in mind this tower goes to the maximum height of the map. I can't remember what this is... maybe +160 blocks.

When you get in all you find is a hollow space except for a hatch elevator in the centre that goes up 60+ blocks to the room in the sky. There is no smart way in dude. Nothing clever to work out. The only way up is to knock out the wall blocks and make stairs out of them. If every block takes you 10-15 minutes to knock out because they are solid steel you will be there all night and day doing it.

This is a fairly common approach to base design in PVP because it is enabled by exploits.

Do you think that's clever? Because as ever player starts to do this all that happens is players stop playing for two reasons;

- Raiding is not practical, worthwhile or fun

- Players get bored because they create an inaccessible safe space where there are no threats for them

Raiding in PVP is a fundamental part of the game. If you take that out then there is only PVE and the PVE on large pop servers is broken to hell. Naturally players will go for the easy safety option because that's the survival part of the game kicking in. Just like players in PVE hide underground at bedrock to avoid any threats. If that was me I'd just go play creative mode. This isn't 7 Days to hide....

I'm not saying I want raiding to be easy, I'm saying players should be rewarded for base designs that are actual good and NOT using exploits.

I appreciate that PVP isn't on the Fun Pimps priority list, but some small changes like eliminating the hatch elevator glitch would certainly help in both PVE and PVP environments.

 

[stallionsden]

Right let me lay out a stereotypical scenario for you in PVP because clearly it hasn't hit home despite the fact that I've tried to already give you a quick run down. If you actually played PVP you wouldn't be making a lot of comments that you are because you would understand the problems it has.
A player builds a tower base, surrounds it with a 5 block wide pit to bedrock. They've got multiple LCBs hidden in their tower at different locations providing only 16x protection. The LCB covers 40x40 which is standard now since electricity was brought in.

Lets say they build their entrance level with the ground that's at around +1 and you manage to find a way in. Bare in mind this tower goes to the maximum height of the map. I can't remember what this is... maybe +160 blocks.

When you get in all you find is a hollow space except for a hatch elevator in the centre that goes up 60+ blocks to the room in the sky. There is no smart way in dude. Nothing clever to work out. The only way up is to knock out the wall blocks and make stairs out of them. If every block takes you 10-15 minutes to knock out because they are solid steel you will be there all night and day doing it.

This is a fairly common approach to base design in PVP because it is enabled by exploits.

Do you think that's clever? Because as ever player starts to do this all that happens is players stop playing for two reasons;

- Raiding is not practical, worthwhile or fun

- Players get bored because they create an inaccessible safe space where there are no threats for them

Raiding in PVP is a fundamental part of the game. If you take that out then there is only PVE and the PVE on large pop servers is broken to hell. Naturally players will go for the easy safety option because that's the survival part of the game kicking in. Just like players in PVE hide underground at bedrock to avoid any threats. If that was me I'd just go play creative mode.

I'm not saying I want raiding to be easy, I'm saying players should be rewarded for base designs that are actual good and NOT using exploits.

I appreciate that PVP isn't on the Fun Pimps priority list, but some small changes like eliminating the hatch elevator glitch would certainly help in both PVE and PVP environments.

If you place a lcb down then another doesnt that one over ride the first lcb. it doesnt extend the range as far as i am aware. this bit i am unsure so blow me away lol that i am wrong haha....

i will argue with you that it isnt a exploit and i refuse to believe it is due to the reasons i have given prior. regardless as to if i have played pvp or not has nothing to do with this.

try the methods i mentioned in my last post lol. first

- how many blocks wide is the base

- how many blocks from edge of base to edge of lcb claim area end block. til you can place a block

but players using their brains and imagination to keep you out is genius. if you dont have what it takes to be smarter then them or work out some way to counter this maybe pvp is not for you. or maybe move on to the next.

 

[caatalyst]

More LCBs = more range i'm afraid.

Regardless even if they just have one, it is still a problem because of the protection and time needed to to to the sky room. All I can suggest is next time you start the game again, go try it on a PVP server and do some raiding to see. It bugs me because 7 days is very close to been one of the best PVP base building games out there. A few extra raiding tools to break up augering and some fine tuning of exploits would really help out.

 

[stallionsden]

More LCBs = more range i'm afraid.
Regardless even if they just have one, it is still a problem because of the protection and time needed to to to the sky room. All I can suggest is next time you start the game again, go try it on a PVP server and do some raiding to see. It bugs me because 7 days is very close to been one of the best PVP base building games out there. A few extra raiding tools to break up augering and some fine tuning of exploits would really help out.

maybe so more tools for pve or pvp will always be welcomed. but i am also sure tfp have plans to add more to pvp altho not as much as pve but will improve it when the time is right to do so.

 

[Gazz]

Yes I am because simply saying something is an exploit because you can't get into a base or work out a way is obvious to a blind man let alone some one whom doesn't play alot of PvP etc.

The argument for or against is missing the point.

If the server rules state that it's an exploit then it's an exploit.

If they don't mention it everyone is free to call it exploit, legit, or Lucy May.

Personally I think it's a bug that you can get teleported through solid blocks. And a closed hatch is a solid block because you cannot move through it.

 

[Crater Creator]

stallionsden: I've been researching game theory recently and I think it's relevant here. Have you played Tic-tac-toe, known as naughts and crosses in Australia? If so, would you still bother playing it with an experienced player today? I wouldn't, because anyone that's played it very much has worked out how to play perfectly, such that they cannot lose.

I bring this up because that's the situation caatalyst is describing. Once the PvP base builder has a strategy that's not just clever, but objectively unbeatable, the PvP gameplay ceases to be very interesting to either side. It sounds like there's still a brute force solution vis-à-vis carving out stairs, but brute force doesn't imply fun.

caatalyst: Let me ask you and the other PvP players something. Whenever I read people describing PvP gameplay, it's not really player versus player. It's player versus player's base. Players playing defense try to hide their presence so they're never seen or heard, and players playing offense try to raid and steal a player's valuables when they're not there.

That's not surprising, but in your view is this the ideal way for PvP? Or would you enjoy it more if PvP were more about active defense, where you're dealing directly with another player instead of whatever passive defenses they've left behind?

 

[stallionsden]

stallionsden: I've been researching game theory recently and I think it's relevant here. Have you played Tic-tac-toe, known as naughts and crosses in Australia? If so, would you still bother playing it with an experienced player today? I wouldn't, because anyone that's played it very much has worked out how to play perfectly, such that they cannot lose.
I bring this up because that's the situation caatalyst is describing. Once the PvP base builder has a strategy that's not just clever, but objectively unbeatable, the PvP gameplay ceases to be very interesting to either side. It sounds like there's still a brute force solution vis-à-vis carving out stairs, but brute force doesn't imply fun.

caatalyst: Let me ask you and the other PvP players something. Whenever I read people describing PvP gameplay, it's not really player versus player. It's player versus player's base. Players playing defense try to hide their presence so they're never seen or heard, and players playing offense try to raid and steal a player's valuables when they're not there.

That's not surprising, but in your view is this the ideal way for PvP? Or would you enjoy it more if PvP were more about active defense, where you're dealing directly with another player instead of whatever passive defenses they've left behind?

I understand what caatalyst was trying to say. Just because I don't okay PvP don't mean I dont understand it lol. And to your question. Yes I would play a experienced player.

1. because it will give me experience.

2. It will teach me things never thought.

3. It will side me in other cases and

4. Eventually I will become better then the pro... or atleast as good.

One doesn't become better by playing against those of equal or less experience they learn and become better playing against those that are more experienced and better.

 

[caatalyst]

stallionsden: I've been researching game theory recently and I think it's relevant here. Have you played Tic-tac-toe, known as naughts and crosses in Australia? If so, would you still bother playing it with an experienced player today? I wouldn't, because anyone that's played it very much has worked out how to play perfectly, such that they cannot lose.
I bring this up because that's the situation caatalyst is describing. Once the PvP base builder has a strategy that's not just clever, but objectively unbeatable, the PvP gameplay ceases to be very interesting to either side. It sounds like there's still a brute force solution vis-à-vis carving out stairs, but brute force doesn't imply fun.

caatalyst: Let me ask you and the other PvP players something. Whenever I read people describing PvP gameplay, it's not really player versus player. It's player versus player's base. Players playing defense try to hide their presence so they're never seen or heard, and players playing offense try to raid and steal a player's valuables when they're not there.

That's not surprising, but in your view is this the ideal way for PvP? Or would you enjoy it more if PvP were more about active defense, where you're dealing directly with another player instead of whatever passive defenses they've left behind?

There are many issues with PVP right now that need looking at. Some are definitely more pressing than others and the hatch elevator bug has become increasingly problematic as it has become more widespread and known. I bring it up because it’s one that is relatively easy to fix.

PVP isn’t necessarily all about killing other players and raiding but of course they are two massive parts that need to be balanced in order for it to work. Any player interaction that we can encourage is great. With all that said, it feels like 7 days is so close to been the best PVP base building game on the market.

Offline raiding shouldn’t be eliminated but of course I would much rather raid online and fight the base owner. This has so many of its own problems though. It can take 15 minutes to knock out one steel block with LCB protection, yet if the owner is online they can repair it in seconds. The owner can also constantly respawn and rearm and kill you until you no longer have any means of getting in. If you’re attempting to raid a group base while they are online it gets even worse. Some incentive to do the raid online would help. Fixing the offline LCB protection would also work as this is still a bug and maybe increase the repair time of blocks when a player not on your team is inside your LCB zone. You could even disable building if an enemy is inside the LCB zone.

In general, raiding shouldn’t be frowned upon, it should be embraced. The big argument that keeps coming up is “If a player has spent weeks making a base then why should another player be able to break in in a couple of hours? Well, this argument is void because the time and resources needed to build a base has no relation to the raid what so ever because none of that time or those resources are effected. The only time it would be is if somebody collapsed the owners base. In most circumstances the owner can repair the damage in minutes assuming they have played smart and hidden a small amount of resources to rebuild doors and blocks, assuming they haven’t built a really poorly designed base, in which base they might have to farm a little bit to do the repairs.

The key has got to be making this experience fun for both the raider and the base owner whenever possible. Right now it isn’t fun for anybody. As I’ve already stated, 4-7 hours grind to get into your average end game base is just too much. Even as a pretty active player it turns my stomach everyy ime I look at a full steel base and think… can I really be arsed as it isn’t even going to be worth it. Some bases, dongs in particular are mostly unraidable if built properly due to exploits in the game.

Getting the map right itself is also critical but a lot of this can be currently handled by the server owners. They can add PVP zones / cities / prefabs with high end loot where players can go and fight one another. Map size is also important. The server I’m playing on accidently made the map too big and players don’t see one another.

I’ve also copied this from the PVP section which includes some suggestions for improving raiding;

Explosive charges

What about if we had explosive charges that we place and detonate? They could deal huge amounts of block damage to player made blocks. They could be craftable and locked behind perks and cost a lot of resources to build. Maybe 10-15 minutes in the work bench. Maybe some of the items needed are rare and loot only. We could have tiered charges - wood, metal and concrete / steel charges. They would need to be placeable within LCB protected zones though. If anyone played Exile mod on Arma 3 they will know this works nicely. They are super loud and anybody within a km of the explosion will be alerted and head over to get a piece of the action.

Raiding Rocket Ammunition

Name says it all - rockets that deal a lot of block damage to player made blocks. They could also take ages to craft and maybe are super rare and expensive at traders behind secret stash 3. Great countermeasure to the sky dong as we could blow in the side and jump across.

Raiding Grenades

I don’t think we can implement C4 because of the LCB issues it would create but for now we could have a grenade that basically deals damage to steel / concrete. Works exactly like the rocket but deals 250hp to all bloc

Lock Pick

A one time use item. It only works on doors / hatches and basically destroys the lock. This is a super rare item. It could also come up in the trader but super rare and super expensive. A good duke coin sink. After it is used to item instantly is destroyed.

Counter Measure Notification

This might be a bit more difficult to implement but Exile mod created an app that you could install on your mobile phone or discord and it notified you when somebody was raiding you so you could jump on and defend

NPC Guards

This could be a real game changer for raiding when NPCs drop. If we can hire guards to protect our bases this could be a way to make raiding seriously fun.

There are tons of other exploits (fall damage been too low, players logging out mid air and logging back in to avoid fall damage etc).

 

[caatalyst]

I understand what caatalyst was trying to say. Just because I don't okay PvP don't mean I dont understand it lol. And to your question. Yes I would play a experienced player.
1. because it will give me experience.

2. It will teach me things never thought.

3. It will side me in other cases and

4. Eventually I will become better then the pro... or atleast as good.

One doesn't become better by playing against those of equal or less experience they learn and become better playing against those that are more experienced and better.

You understand everything that I've said yet you still disagreed with everything and told me that i'm a lazy raider...

 

[7DaysSurviver]

...
Lock Pick

A one time use item. It only works on doors / hatches and basically destroys the lock. This is a super rare item. Maybe limit it to vote crates or world drop but as rare as legendary weapons. It could also come up in the trader but super rare and super expensive. A good duke coin sink. After it is used to item instantly is destroyed.

I dont agree with you. You are able to craft almost everything, but a simple lockpick you cant...?!?!

If there comes lockpicking content, it should be linked to the skills you have for this, kinda;

- how fast you can open anthing

- lockpick break rate

regards..

 

[stallionsden]

You understand everything that I've said yet you still disagreed with everything and told me that i'm a lazy raider...

I do understand. Just because I disagree with you don't mean I don't understand. I agree with you PvP needs extra things like the grenades etc. But taking away ones proven safe base when others "can not" easily access it is purely silly and lazy. The grenades or rocket you speak of will assist you with this yeh. Maybe also make lcb destroyable. But make the lcb what ever the player wants it to be so that it is harder for others to locate or work out Which is the lcb.

We all talk bout real life simulation in games altho not all can be 100% realistic etc. When a small team infiltrates a huge army they dont stop and go nah can't be bothered they have a wooden gate. They work out a plan and execute it. They still win. Altho

1. They have the necessary items.

2. This is a game that can't fully mimmick real life They have to come up with ways for and against where each defense has a possible attack. Altho the hatch as you see it is a glitch/exploit. There are genuine people whom utilise it for purely enjoyment value or a part of their gaming experience and don't use it to cheat or exploit others.....

Gta online is a good example.... most get along nice and peaceful with the odd exception. But as soon as all the kids finish school and get home chaos reaks and they all just go around just annoying/griefing others.

But how I was bought up was to never give up always think of better ways to do something always think ahead of your opponent or out think them. Don't just go oh get rid of this as we can't get in etc yet your own words say you can still get in etc. The ladder thing was even sillier then your hatch objection tbh.

You just lack needed items. Yes obviously and I am sure the game will get more. Even better send me the server details of such base I am sure with the combined brains in this forum we will come up with a way to counter this.....

 

[caatalyst]

I dont agree with you. You are able to craft almost everything, but a simple lockpick you cant...?!?!If there comes lockpicking content, it should be linked to the skills you have for this, kinda;

- how fast you can open anthing

- lockpick break rate

regards..

You don't agree with lock picking or the method for attaining one? Ignore my description for how to get one. I've edited it as that was for server admins but unfortunately there was no way to implement it. The method for getting one is up to the devs but definitely should be rare and difficult to to get.

- - - Updated - - -

I do understand. Just because I disagree with you don't mean I don't understand. I agree with you PvP needs extra things like the grenades etc. But taking away ones proven safe base when others "can not" easily access it is purely silly and lazy. The grenades or rocket you speak of will assist you with this yeh. Maybe also make lcb destroyable. But make the lcb what ever the player wants it to be so that it is harder for others to locate or work out Which is the lcb.
We all talk bout real life simulation in games altho not all can be 100% realistic etc. When a small team infiltrates a huge army they dont stop and go nah can't be bothered they have a wooden gate. They work out a plan and execute it. They still win. Altho

1. They have the necessary items.

2. This is a game that can't fully mimmick real life They have to come up with ways for and against where each defense has a possible attack. Altho the hatch as you see it is a glitch/exploit. There are genuine people whom utilise it for purely enjoyment value or a part of their gaming experience and don't use it to cheat or exploit others.....

Gta online is a good example.... most get along nice and peaceful with the odd exception. But as soon as all the kids finish school and get home chaos reaks and they all just go around just annoying/griefing others.

But how I was bought up was to never give up always think of better ways to do something always think ahead of your opponent or out think them. Don't just go oh get rid of this as we can't get in etc yet your own words say you can still get in etc. The ladder thing was even sillier then your hatch objection tbh.

You just lack needed items. Yes obviously and I am sure the game will get more. Even better send me the server details of such base I am sure with the combined brains in this forum we will come up with a way to counter this.....

Dude seriously, go play some PVP and then get back in the debate. I will NEVER convince you otherwise because you've never raided a hatch elevator sky dong before. Also please make sure you've got shadow play running because I want to see what 'smart' techniques you've got for countering the design i laid out besides making the walls into stairs.

 

[7DaysSurviver]

You don't agree with lock picking or the method for attaining one? Ignore my description for how to get one. I've edited it as that was for server admins but unfortunately there was no way to implement it. The method for getting one is up to the devs but definitely should be rare and difficult to to get.

Just how to get and use it. If its too hard, ppl will use pickaxe as lockpick...

regards...

 

[caatalyst]

Just how to get and use it. If its too hard, ppl will use pickaxe as lockpick...

regards...

It becomes an additional tool to use that you can get by exploring the world. I'd rather spend a few hours playing the game doing things to get one door down if it reduces the amount of time i have to stare at blocks with an auger. Have you ever tried taking down a fully reinforced vault door with a pick axe whilst it has LCB protection? If you haven't go try it... then imagine knocking down 20 :-D Even with maxed out perks you will want to leave something holding down your left mouse button while you go away and have a smoke and a drink.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Dude have you actually played on a PVP server? You know that if somebody builds a tower to the sky limit and has only a glitch elevator system to get to the top that there is no way in? You can't stack frames to get up there when an LCB blocks you building anywhere near.
I've done many raids with nearly 1k hours I've got in this game playing PVP and I can tell you right now this is a problem.

Same tower

12 High Socket without a ladder, instead the owner Nerdpole up

after this 12 Blocks he use a ladder

Same problem

Same tower

Entrance 12 High made by two Drawbridges.

As long as the player dont forget to lift the drawbridges

Same problem

Only difference... is in your head

Simple serverrule would be "Destroying of bases allowed if there is no way to move in"

 

[caatalyst]

Same tower12 High Socket without a ladder, instead the owner Nerdpole up

after this 12 Blocks he use a ladder

Same problem

Same tower

Entrance 12 High made by two Drawbridges.

As long as the player dont forget to lift the drawbridges

Same problem

Only difference... is in your head

Simple serverrule would be "Destroying of bases allowed if there is no way to move in"

Yeah I get that and offered some solutions in PVP thread.

- Make Nerdpoling an option to switch on and off when starting a new game

- Make ladders break completely if the top or bottom one is removed (might still be exploited)

A lock pick could be a good countermeasure to draw bridge / hatch exploits.

They just need to be balanced so they aren't easy to get and / or break easily... maybe only a 50% chance of success.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Yeah I get that and offered some solutions in PVP thread.
- Make Nerdpoling an option to switch on and off when starting a new game

- Make ladders break completely if the top or bottom one is removed (might still be exploited)

A lock pick could be a good countermeasure to draw bridge / hatch exploits.

They just need to be balanced so they aren't easy to get.

Got one more

Remove LCB from Recipe list

(a bit bad because of moving workstations, but on PVP LCB´s make no sense)

Btw my serverrules said and will say

* PVE > PVP

* PVP allowed, but the attacker play a kind of Death is Death

* Base Destroying only with a RP reason or if Base has no raidable way in/through.

But as you can see PVE with Possible PVP, means in fact there are very few Playerkills/Raids.

And i am one of the "Every player can have a save Basement" faction

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?76753-Royals-Vanilla-Mod&p=756770&viewfull=1#post756770

 

[stallionsden]

You don't agree with lock picking or the method for attaining one? Ignore my description for how to get one. I've edited it as that was for server admins but unfortunately there was no way to implement it. The method for getting one is up to the devs but definitely should be rare and difficult to to get.
- - - Updated - - -

Dude seriously, go play some PVP and then get back in the debate. I will NEVER convince you otherwise because you've never raided a hatch elevator sky dong before. Also please make sure you've got shadow play running because I want to see what 'smart' techniques you've got for countering the design i laid out besides making the walls into stairs.

Point me into one that has this in it. I have no issues with trying. And If I don't succeed i am just gonna congrats the guy/gal whom created/designed it lol but I doubt there isn't a way in and up or up and In lol. Or if you like I be happy to get you Into my server and you can build this base you speak is impenetrable etc.

 

[caatalyst]

Got one moreRemove LCB from Recipe list

(a bit bad because of moving workstations, but on PVP LCB´s make no sense)

The problem you've got is that bases are too easy to raid without LCB protection. Also trolling will be crazy. Folks will log back in and either have no base or it will be completely pink :miserable:

- - - Updated - - -

Point me into one that has this in it. I have no issues with trying. And If I don't succeed i am just gonna congrats the guy/gal whom created/designed it lol but I doubt there isn't a way in and up or up and In lol. Or if you like I be happy to get you Into my server and you can build this base you speak is impenetrable etc.

Go set yourself up on lands of Anarchy. When you've got an auger find yourself a sky dong (base with pit around it that goes into the sky limit). upload your raid video afterwards :-D

 

[stallionsden]

The problem you've got is that bases are too easy to raid without LCB protection. Also trolling will be crazy. Folks will log back in and either have no base or it will be completely pink :miserable:
- - - Updated - - -

Go set yourself up on lands of Anarchy. When you've got an auger find yourself a sky dong (base with pit around it that goes into the sky limit). upload your raid video afterwards :-D

I am not gonna play PvP for weeks to get upto the ability to get an auger lol. I might just get someone to build a sky dong lol on my server and we will go from there.... ofc creative menu with everything a normal player can build and make to hasten this up be good.