PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[icehot]

I completely agree that the game would be better with no hud - a watch should be used for the compass and time of day, and day count etc which you can look at from time to time.

If you have more character feedback, for instance the screen going red or even grey as you near death, maybe even more sounds, and more dramatic breathing when below 10 stamina and trying to run perhaps - cos u don't need those bars on there. Also loud heart beat sounds when bleeding out would be nice!! Or dripping blood over your eyes, would be awesome.

The only thing left that is a tricky one is your belt. That could pop up when you scroll the mouse wheel and then disappear again, and obviously be always visible when you open your inventory - perhaps also pop up briefly when you press the number keys etc.

 

[CptLaserPants]

I think it'd be great to have two different HUD modes. 'Standard' with added hunger and thirst bars (and a temperature indicator would be nice), and a 'True Survivor' mode that disables nearly everything and relies on audio/visual cues and pop-up notifications.

 

[Aldranon]

since we are not on the subject of brass. lets talk about how it can become a shortage, especially in a server that has gone on for 100s of days.
Facts:

-- Brass in game comes from finite objects, car parts, house parts/items.

-- Ammo needs brass

-- you don't get your casings back

-- can make brass because the game does not have copper and Zinc

We need a solution - maybe a Geology perk that allows for discovery of other resources like Zinc/Copper that can be smelted?

Make tin cans have a brass forge weight of around 10.

Its not a freebee as tin cans are already valuable now in making oil. But you can always loot cans off of Zombies given a strong reason to take on hordes with a melee weapon or x-bow.

 

[Tin]

Correct, it is my opinion that it is bad design to punish the player with an error of wasting resources or going out when not properly fed or hydrated because the innate knowledge that their own body would have told them was hidden in a menu in a backpack instead of where a passing thought would have filled in the information just as a passing thought in real life answers the state of own's own body.

lol. Yeah It's not like you just have to suck it up when you're running late for work, don't even realize you had nothing to eat till you get there but you cant get anything because it's not your break time yet. Yep never happens. Or you get focused on something and don't even realize you haven't ate for over a day... kinda like how you get focused on doing tasks in the game and forget you need something to eat or drink..?

yeah real life is a bad game design.

Are you really going to tell me you never forgot to eat in real life when you should have?

It's not like the info in the game is just 1 press of a button away either...

I know how more options isn't always the best thing but in this case I don't see why or where it would hurt to have a hub option menu in the vanilla. That way everyone gets what they want with no worries of mods one way or the other. Because it is pretty clear what one thinks is a bad game design the other does not. Where one doesn't ever open up the pack but yet still knows where they are on food and water the other does not. Just seems something like this would be better off having it in the option menu along with what you want to show and not show with no mods needed.

Yeah, I would like to see option(s) to turn certain things Add/Remove/Move with a click of a button n drag certain windows and lock them into place on the screen. Also increase or decrease certain window sizes on the fly at some point as well.

 

[Roland]

If the intent to cause player error about something they should have innate unerring knowledge with just a simple thought (no menu looking in a backpack) then that is indeed trolling and being purposefully a bad design. End game, no point even talking discussing it if the goal is to punish the player for not having the innate knowledge that should be provided by the their body.
Even in real life when you get distracted (and when you are distracted you are often not looking at the GUI) you can miss queues. Correct, but it only takes an instant or even passing thought to remind you. You don't have to make a conscious effort to look in a backpack, looking down at an out of the way GUI element is the equivalent of said passing thought.

You've made quite clear your intention is to punish the player for not knowing something they would innately know if the body was their own. This is an encouragement of bad design.

Punishing and allowing for human error that can have survival repercussions are two different things. Keeping the food bar off the screen is "punishing" in the same sense that removing the minimap with zombie radar blips was "punishing" players. The same exact arguments were thrown out at that time. The radar blips were said to compensate for the lack of environmental awareness that a video game has compared to real life and those who wanted it called its removal "poor design" as well. (I even recall a deaf guy threatened to cause bad press if it wasn't reinstated)

My intent is not to punish players but to remove unnecessary crutches from the game if that removal results in more situations where survival is threatened and the player has to adapt and fight for their life. Without the blips one could get hit from behind and stunned and then killed. But that risk adds value to the game and forces the player to be more vigilant and when something bad happens and you survive it creates a triumphant moment that makes the game feel awesome.

Same is true of the food bar. Without it you may forget to check and then find yourself in a precarious spot with only 10% fullness left and what you choose to do at that point could lead to a triumphant moment or death and it is that specific scenario that makes this survival game addictive. Every time you find yourself in a situation where imminent triumph or imminent death are both very possible the game gets good.

The food bar on screen is too much of an aid in my opinion. It robs the gameplay of those moments of triumph vs death just like the minimap with zombie radar blips robbed the game of those same type of moments.

The only real difference between the two was that YOU were able to reverse the food bar with your HUD mod probably almost immediately and never gave it a real chance whereas modding in the minimap was not possible so you had to adapt. If the minimap could have been modded back in immediately and with the same relative ease as the food bar you can bet that it too would be a hugely popular mod and a whole faction of the community who never really gave it a chance or adapted their gameplay to the new normal would be still calling its removal "punishing" and "bad design".

 

[Roland]

Wish granted.
Press F7.

Are you sharing with us your next assignment? Because F7 in its current form doesn't grant my wish by a long shot....

 

[CptLaserPants]

The only real difference between the two was that YOU were able to reverse the food bar with your HUD mod probably almost immediately and never gave it a real chance whereas modding in the minimap was not possible so you had to adapt. If the minimap could have been modded back in immediately and with the same relative ease as the food bar you can bet that it too would be a hugely popular mod and a whole faction of the community who never really gave it a chance or adapted their gameplay to the new normal would be still calling its removal "punishing" and "bad design".

I can't speak for the majority but I can tell you that I definitely wouldn't. I started playing after the removal of the hunger/thirst bars and mini-map, so the current HUD is all I know. But while I call for hunger/thirst to be added now I'm also against a mini-map, and this is why I don't like bringing up ultra realism arguments into game design.

I don't argue for hunger/thirst for realism (though I may argue against realism based counterargument points that don't make sense to me). I do so because I find it useful information for what I consider there to be no downside to having.

But I argue against a mini-map because I find it unnecessary and totally out of place for a survival game.

 

[Maharin]

I think it'd be great to have two different HUD modes. 'Standard' with added hunger and thirst bars (and a temperature indicator would be nice), and a 'True Survivor' mode that disables nearly everything and relies on audio/visual cues and pop-up notifications.

This is an idea I can get behind. Options.

 

[Guppycur]

But poor game design doesn't allow interaction with the world when you do that

But interaction is immersion breaking. Or um... Lack of interaction ability makes the game harder, and that was essentially one of rolands arguments, so...

 

[Lonestarcanuck]

I have tons of 7.62 rounds that don't use brass but a steel casing. They are actually the cheapest option too. I think brass should only be used in electronics and be sold in ingots at the trader. Steel for bullets 2017!

that is a great idea - Steel (forged steel) to make casings @Roland @TFP or whom ever is in charge "Make it So!"

 

[Roland]

But interaction is immersion breaking. Or um... Lack of interaction ability makes the game harder, and that was essentially one of rolands arguments, so...

Could you please quote what you thought was me "essentially arguing that lack of interaction ability makes the game harder"? If you thought that was an essential argument of mine then I was egregiously unclear or you're just being snarky...

 

[Lonestarcanuck]

since we are talking about Casings for Ammo being made from Forged Steel instead of brass...lets also talk about entrails...

Animals should drop intestines so we can make sausage from beef/beer/plant(s). also good for making blow up animals

 

[Maharin]

In my mind most of the current indicators are not nearly good enough. If I'm at zero on my hunger/thirst bar I'm in rough shape. I will die in all too short a time (instead of like in the real world where I could easily go days without eating and still live). But if I'm in combat and something stuns me I get this wild visual and audible clue that persists very obviously. I want all life threatening indicators to be more like the stun effect and less like the much more passive system that hunger uses now. I don't need numbers but I do need obvious feedback. I shouldn't have to guess what is wrong with me nor should I have to read an owner's manual to find out in most cases. I'm not saying I should have a view of the state of my body only an autopsy would provide but I should be able to do meaningful self analysis without dropping everything I'm doing.

In a real survival situation anybody with a lick of sense would be giving themselves regular check-ups trying to find even the smallest thing wrong before it becomes something serious. You'd learn to identify what you need to know or do now and what can wait. You'd learn to take care of some things while you have time, even if you don't want to, simply because you have no clue when you'll have the opportunity again. If you need an example, ask any soldier how important something as simple as dry socks can be.

 

[Roland]

This is an idea I can get behind. Options.

Me too. And for the record I'm happy to play with the status bars modded out so I won't be upset if the bars come back either. My only dog in this fight is that I really do see the food and water bars always present on screen as too much assistance in a survival game. The current implementation is closer to being "just right" from a design perspective than ever present status bars. EDIT: Your suggestion that follows this post is even closer to being "ideal".

But options for the HUD would be fantastic.

 

[Roland]

In my mind most of the current indicators are not nearly good enough. If I'm at zero on my hunger/thirst bar I'm in rough shape. I will die in all too short a time (instead of like in the real world where I could easily go days without eating and still live). But if I'm in combat and something stuns me I get this wild visual and audible clue that persists very obviously. I want all life threatening indicators to be more like the stun effect and less like the much more passive system that hunger uses now. I don't need numbers but I do need obvious feedback. I shouldn't have to guess what is wrong with me nor should I have to read an owner's manual to find out in most cases. I'm not saying I should have a view of the state of my body only an autopsy would provide but I should be able to do meaningful self analysis without dropping everything I'm doing.
In a real survival situation anybody with a lick of sense would be giving themselves regular check-ups trying to find even the smallest thing wrong before it becomes something serious. You'd learn to identify what you need to know or do now and what can wait. You'd learn to take care of some things while you have time, even if you don't want to, simply because you have no clue when you'll have the opportunity again. If you need an example, ask any soldier how important something as simple as dry socks can be.

Maybe there could be something like a self-check action. It could be assigned to a single button so that it would be really really simple to do. Just press one simple button and that would be like self checking yourself to get a general sense of what you were feeling and wearing and just your overall status. Maybe they could map that action to the B button or something.

/oh wait...

;-)

 

[Maharin]

Me too. And for the record I'm happy to play with the status bars modded out so I won't be upset if the bars come back either. My only dog in this fight is that I really do see the food and water bars always present on screen as too much assistance in a survival game. The current implementation is closer to being "just right" from a design perspective than ever present status bars. But options for the HUD would be fantastic.

And I get the whole modding in and out thing... I've made that same argument many times. But if we're really nearing the end of this whole thing then perhaps going forward work could be done on making these kind of things optional. So that when something is "removed" it is just simply set to invisible by default. Most players aren't modders, even in games like this.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

that is a great idea - Steel (forged steel) to make casings @Roland @TFP or whom ever is in charge "Make it So!"

No idea why so many people ask to break the endgame Balance.

There is only ONE itemclass that can be rare at endgame and move the player to leave his base. And you ask for removing that.

Yes i share the opinion that brass need to be more foundable in respawning crates and less in vanishing blocks.

But Steel casings will lead to abundance of ammo and remove the latest reason to explore the world.

 

[Maharin]

Maybe there could be something like a self-check action. It could be assigned to a single button so that it would be really really simple to do. Just press one simple button and that would be like self checking yourself to get a general sense of what you were feeling and wearing and just your overall status. Maybe they could map that action to the B button or something.

/oh wait...

;-)

Except you can't do that on the run, nor can you do it while on a vehicle, etc.

And again, my complaint is that the cues/clues given are not obvious what exactly is going on. Too many sounds are similar (hunger and exhaustion, for example) and the visual clues that are given are all too fleeting and easy to miss in most cases.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Maybe there could be something like a self-check action. It could be assigned to a single button so that it would be really really simple to do. Just press one simple button and that would be like self checking yourself to get a general sense of what you were feeling and wearing and just your overall status. Maybe they could map that action to the B button or something./oh wait...

;-)

You know how it is named if a person feel no pain ?

Kongenitale analgesia

sadly no link for you, google gives me only german sites

The point is, it is a illness.

And the people who suffer on it hurt themself badly.

Because all feedback a player in this game have is Sound (at least the most) and what you see on the screen. Its very bad to have no feedback about things you have feedback in reallife.

You allways know if you are hurt

You allways know if you have stamina

You allways know if it is hot or cold

You allways know if you need to drink

You allways know if you need to eat

 

[Roland]

Because all feedback a player in this game have is Sound (at least the most) and what you see on the screen. Its very bad to have no feedback about things you have feedback in reallife.

Oh man...this is minimap zombie radar blip playbook 101

You allways know if you are hurt You allways know if you have stamina

You allways know if it is hot or cold

You allways know if you need to drink

You allways know if you need to eat

You are just plain wrong on food and drink. Sorry but you live a very sedentary life if you truly believe this.

Hot and cold shows up in the game as soon as you are. What's the issue with that?

Stamina is a useless bar.

Health bar is critical. I agree with that but I also play without that and function just fine....