PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Kalex]

http://www.qconline.com/news/regional/piranha-like-catch-more-than-just-a-bluegill/article_b0fdfe55-b409-5aa3-b63e-abc9f86dfb58.html
Mutated or zomified bluegill or bass that attack in schools if people can't get past Piranha not being native.

Or, an invasive species like snakeheads, which can be found in Arizona waters right now. Add a little nuclear magic and a touch of zombie and tad-ah! The terror of the lake! They can move from one lake to another just by walking over land.

Yeah, that would work. Though they shouldn't be very fast. However, before they put any type of water hazard like that, we need to have real swimming in the game. Right now, we have no way to fight at surface level of water.

 

[Tilleen]

The only real problem with the system is that it needs more common sense, or the appearance of. For example, a mother zombie wouldnt have a gun but a cop or a cowboy would, I have yet to find a weapon on a cowboy, even the cowboy hats are not that common. Its the little things that bring up the question about loot randomness. its the same things that lessen the immersion because there is a lack of lore.
Lore can be used in such a way to explain why screamers appear thru talk around a campfire. Lore is usually passed on thru generations of siblings. The problem is that the game does not have any real lore yet. Knowledge of the heatmap is therefore not passed thru lore but thru the forums thus losing more immersion.

In the end the problem is not with the players here, its with the game and the things it still lacks. Like lore stories. We need to find books that have some actual stories or an adventurers diary explaining screamer (and other types of zombies) behavior. So any common knowledge learned on the forums can also be learned in the game.

Remember that just because you have not found a weapon on a cowboy does not mean that the chances are higher to find one on a Zombie Mother. The actual chances are Zombie Mother: about 1.3 % and various ammos is about 4.5%, Zombie Cowboy: Rifle about 10% and various gun parts about 7.5% so combined about 17.5 %. The sample size of any one player is probably not large enough for these percentages to look like they are coming close to those specified. Also there is no requirement that it ever has to.

 

[Guppycur]

He'll tell you he's spelled it all out before a long long time ago in a thread far far away and that he has some good ideas for a replacement system (that he also already posted enough times) and that somehow what we have constitutes lazy development.
But it all boils down to he just doesn't like it. He prefers something else. And that's fine. We all prefer stuff a certain way and this is one of those things that he'll also tell you that if it remains by the end of development his review will be that it is the game that could have been the greatest game that was never made or the game he never knew he always wanted but couldn't have or something similar. I forgot the exact wording but he had it all ready to go-- probably on a Hallmark card he plans to send Joel when the game releases....

Guppy gets sentimental when it comes to leveled loot.

A discussion I just had on the subject... took less than 30 minutes and we came up with a better idea than the current system. =)

-TSBX- - Today at 9:52 PM

Better scav skill should net MORE loot, not better

Guppycur - Today at 9:53 PM

That, and levelled harvesting is fine.

-TSBX- - Today at 9:53 PM

Maybe tie quality of found items to your expertise, high gun skill will be able to identify parts better, but an axe looks like an axe to your untrained eye

Guppycur - Today at 9:53 PM

Poor harvesters means lower quality pulls,

Because you break ♥♥♥♥ or are just unable to pull it out.

But me finding a brown wrench and you finding a purple is retarded.

-TSBX- - Today at 9:54 PM

Agreed

StompyNZ - Today at 9:55 PM

they should scrap the whole quality system anyway, its so racist and makes the poor quality weapons feel like they are mistreated

Guppycur - Today at 9:55 PM

If we as players aren't making decisions (searching a trash can but not under a dirty diaper) then that means the game is doing it for us. Nope.

-TSBX- - Today at 9:55 PM

Also, what if the timer to open a container went away (Could still be locked, jammed, or trapped) and time to loot was based on the contents of the container. If I see an AK and a wrench, I can grab those more quickly than 25 loose brass casings or glass fragments.

Guppycur - Today at 9:55 PM

Qualityism!

I could support that T.

Spend more time get more ♥♥♥♥. Or no more.

StompyNZ - Today at 9:56 PM

fog of war on the chest slots, and they slowly reveal as you watch it

Guppycur - Today at 9:56 PM

Hell, that's 42x better than the current system.

StompyNZ - Today at 9:57 PM

then you have stats on items for how visible they are etc

Guppycur - Today at 9:57 PM

So when those zombies are pounding away nearby you don't just auto get it all.

StompyNZ - Today at 9:57 PM

big ass gun instantly spotted etc

Guppycur - Today at 9:57 PM

Put the timer on the container for a thorough search.

Quick search gets table 1, another 30 seconds rolls from table 2, another 30 rolls from table 3.

-TSBX- - Today at 9:58 PM

Exactly. One of the most tense moments I've ever had in the game was waiting for the open timer on a safe before they were locked and I coule hear zombies breaking into the building and it was crazy.

Guppycur - Today at 9:58 PM

Yep. Digging that.

StompyNZ - Today at 9:58 PM

na, loot gets rolled once at the start

Guppycur - Today at 9:58 PM

Currently, sure.

StompyNZ - Today at 9:58 PM

you just dont see it if you suck at looting

Guppycur - Today at 9:58 PM

Either way, levelled loot gotta go,

StompyNZ - Today at 9:58 PM

so a better looter could then open the same chest and see things another didnt

Guppycur - Today at 9:59 PM

Far too many alternative, and better, ideas.

Mmmm... Can't agree with that stomp.

Harvesting, yeh, opening a cabinet, no.

StompyNZ - Today at 9:59 PM

well, you want to spot the tiny rare and hard to identify bits, you gotta be a good looter

Guppycur - Today at 10:00 PM

Or take more time.

-TSBX- - Today at 10:00 PM

I would think that would tie into an organic growth of the scavenging skill. After looking in cabinets long enough, you know to check for false bottoms, etc.

StompyNZ - Today at 10:00 PM

or very lucky

Guppycur - Today at 10:00 PM

So. Loot skill decrease time, like it already does.

StompyNZ - Today at 10:00 PM

yeah thats what im saying gup

Guppycur - Today at 10:00 PM

Then yeh, we agree. =)

StompyNZ - Today at 10:00 PM

if you have skill, you see everything quick

if you dont, then the smaller stuff takes longer to appears or in some cases never

Guppycur - Today at 10:01 PM

Yep.

Consensus.

StompyNZ - Today at 10:01 PM

right, make it so

Guppycur - Today at 10:03 PM

...just gotta get gazz on board. And we know he doesn't like to start over. =)

-TSBX- - Today at 10:03 PM

Do you guys think tying that into skills for an item type (guns, ammo, melee, tools, whatever) so that the more points you have in guns, the quicker you can loot that item type.

Guppycur - Today at 10:03 PM

Is this idea currently moddable?

StompyNZ - Today at 10:03 PM

yeah

-TSBX- - Today at 10:03 PM

Theoretically, yeah.

StompyNZ - Today at 10:03 PM

would take some work toh

Guppycur - Today at 10:03 PM

No, I think theyre separate skills.

I do seem to recall us discussing a 3 pass look....

Like once looted the container resets to a new container...

@Doombringer101

-TSBX- - Today at 10:07 PM

Imagine having "tiers" of looters. First pass would be for those who can identify weapons and tools, second tier would look for base resources (light fixtures, faucets, etc.) and last pass would be the engineers breaking down complex things like fridges and ovens and ♥♥♥♥.

Goes hand in hand with the takes a while to loot a whole town theme.

Guppycur - Today at 10:08 PM

I think anyone can id a weapon or tool, the skill should be in using it, not finding it.

You are ♥♥♥♥ with a wrench so improperly use it, it breaks quicker.

So tie its hitpoints to your skill.

-TSBX- - Today at 10:09 PM

Maybe, but an expert would be able to look at a gun and say "this firing pin is bad, ♥♥♥♥'s not good" where a novice would see a trigger and a barrel and be ecstatic.

Guppycur - Today at 10:09 PM

Coupled with separating hand made tools (q1-q200) from store bought (q300-q500) then boom. Good system.

So have an identify skill. Don't change what you find.

I don't even like seeing quality bars.

-TSBX- - Today at 10:11 PM

How about this, you have your in the field grading system based on your expertise in a field. You can use the item at it's percieved, but until you have it "appraised" at a trader or whatever, you don't get bonuses from part stats (A17)

Guppycur - Today at 10:11 PM

No, don't like it.

That effectively changes what it is.

Better dealt with by a novice breaking it faster.

-TSBX- - Today at 10:12 PM

It would always be a Q123 club, but until you stay a while and listen, if your club skill is bad, it may only feel like a Q30.

Guppycur - Today at 10:13 PM

But that changes what it is, which makes no sense imo.

I could see you not understanding its value, strictly for bartering though.

Hence, hide the quality levels from the player.

-TSBX- - Today at 10:14 PM

Yeah I see what you're saying/

Guppycur - Today at 10:15 PM

But if it fires differently, or strikes more ineffectively, that should be tied to your expertise, not the item.

 

[Roland]

That sounds fun too!

 

[JaxTeller718]

How about a way to check your gamestage on a MP server?

Admins can allow that.

Ok Ill admit it. Guppy and the gang came up with a great loot system, one i would rather see in place of what we got.

This hat tastes yummy...

 

[Death2gnomes]

Remember that just because you have not found a weapon on a cowboy does not mean that the chances are higher to find one on a Zombie Mother. The actual chances are Zombie Mother: about 1.3 % and various ammos is about 4.5%, Zombie Cowboy: Rifle about 10% and various gun parts about 7.5% so combined about 17.5 %. The sample size of any one player is probably not large enough for these percentages to look like they are coming close to those specified. Also there is no requirement that it ever has to.

And that right there is exactly why there is a loss of immersion. I really dont care what the actual numbers are. What matters here is whether Zombie_01 has more loot than say Zombie_02 and that Zombie_3 has different loot than Zombie_04. Thats it, word of mouth, no numbers lore.

dont be a ♥♥♥♥ and use actual numbers and percentages most people I know dont like that. Those that do post actual number ruin the game for others prolly have stopped playing the game for what it is and just constantly play math problems in their head. For myself, thats not fun at all.

 

[stallionsden]

A discussion I just had on the subject... took less than 30 minutes and we came up with a better idea than the current system. =)

Guppy for president.... altho maybe be in office less time then trump haha lol.... . That sounds way better then the system currently. Not knocking the person whom came up with the current system.

But yeh not real immersive lol if a been opens a container finds nothing but a level 50 opens it and finds stuff.

 

[Demonoid74]

Guppy for king of the bowl! just don't flush him!

 

[JaxTeller718]

Guppy for president.... altho maybe be in office less time then trump haha lol.... . That sounds way better then the system currently. Not knocking the person whom came up with the current system.
But yeh not real immersive lol if a been opens a container finds nothing but a level 50 opens it and finds stuff.

TECHNICALLY that was TSBX' idea. Maybe Roland's point still stands.

JaxTeller718 - Keeping It Real Since 2015

 

[DaVegaNL]

Guys if we want these threats to be as realistic as possible, we must not sleep until we feed science what it wants and what it wants is accuracy. I look forward to seeing what all the scientists, doctors, geologists, doctors, mechanics, nurses, contractors, carpenters, culinary chefs, morticians, grave diggers, meteorologists, anthropologists, psychologists, janitors, motorcycle enthusiasts, stay at home moms, stay at home dads, whatever Morlock is, guppies, data analysts, server owners, hackers, avengers, professors, coaches, IRS agents and cult leaders come up with in this investigation.
I would have added math teachers to that list but we all know no one listens to them...

Cute of you to think of me

 

[JaxTeller718]

Cute of you to think of me

The ironic part of it is I would LOVE more complexity in the game but realistically I know we are heading towards less so I have to make jokes to hide the tears.

 

[stallionsden]

TECHNICALLY that was TSBX' idea. Maybe Roland's point still stands.
JaxTeller718 - Keeping It Real Since 2015

Lmao I am tired lol. Tsbx for president but prolly will be back stabbed by guppy whom will seize power from the safety of his toilet haha

 

[wolfbain5]

Lmao I am tired lol. Tsbx for president but prolly will be back stabbed by guppy whom will seize power from the safety of his toilet haha

nah, guppy will be too busy. set him up as vp, he will just be driving around listening to willie nelson "on the road again"

 

[Tilleen]

And that right there is exactly why there is a loss of immersion. I really dont care what the actual numbers are. What matters here is whether Zombie_01 has more loot than say Zombie_02 and that Zombie_3 has different loot than Zombie_04. Thats it, word of mouth, no numbers lore.
dont be a ♥♥♥♥ and use actual numbers and percentages most people I know dont like that. Those that do post actual number ruin the game for others prolly have stopped playing the game for what it is and just constantly play math problems in their head. For myself, thats not fun at all.

Sorry, not trying to ruin the game for anyone.

 

[Crater Creator]

The only real problem with the system is that it needs more common sense, or the appearance of. For example, a mother zombie wouldnt have a gun but a cop or a cowboy would, I have yet to find a weapon on a cowboy, even the cowboy hats are not that common. Its the little things that bring up the question about loot randomness. its the same things that lessen the immersion because there is a lack of lore.

Decayed mothers are still using fat zombie loot. Now, should fat guys be more likely to carry a pistol in the first place? That's an argument to have, but it should at least be fixed for the female zombies, because it throws off things like how much canned food you accumulate. Fat female zombies still drop farmer loot, which causes similar oddities. If you're like me and think the system needs more common sense as you put it... there's a mod in particular that's all over that. :biggrin1:

And that right there is exactly why there is a loss of immersion. I really dont care what the actual numbers are. What matters here is whether Zombie_01 has more loot than say Zombie_02 and that Zombie_3 has different loot than Zombie_04. Thats it, word of mouth, no numbers lore.
dont be a ♥♥♥♥ and use actual numbers and percentages most people I know dont like that. Those that do post actual number ruin the game for others prolly have stopped playing the game for what it is and just constantly play math problems in their head. For myself, thats not fun at all.

Point taken, but you have to understand you're talking with a lot of modders here. When you point out x should happen more and y should happen less, it's only natural to verify if the actual results you're seeing are statistically probable. The game can't just be balanced based on too small of a sample size.

 

[meganoth]

The only real problem with the system is that it needs more common sense, or the appearance of. For example, a mother zombie wouldnt have a gun but a cop or a cowboy would

The solution to this is a thorough beta phase

Lore can be used in such a way to explain why screamers appear thru talk around a campfire.

double plus good. The lore is still missing and (with the advent of more NPCs, quest system and fleshing out of the story) lore can and should be added.

 

[Lonestarcanuck]

Wrong.

wrong + wrong = a Right?

 

[ExeBT]

Suggestion tho Alpha 17 or another alpha.

Hello i've been thinking why the cities dont have a sewer, its would be generathing with the roads in radon gen and have some diferent water that make zombies radiated spawn on this place, just to have more dificult to explore and would be very cool to make some hide roons with awesome loot.

Sorry for my bad english, i'm not fluent :upset:

 

[sillls]

Loot quality is random. There is a modifier on the roll to be sure based on the player's level but there is still a chance for a level one player to get something high quality and a high level player to get something not highest quality.
Before they switched to the current model they were constantly adjusting the loot tables and the game would go back and forth between too rare for the high quality stuff to too common. Now it is just right. You get the rare high quality item in the beginning but as you level up and time goes on you begin to find more high quality things. The current system works well to keep the OP things out of the early game but make them obtainable later in the game.

The only real problem with the system is that you know how it works and that knowledge ruins the immersion because you understand how the game is simulating finding stuff. The same is true of the heat map and the sleeper system. There really is no problem with those systems until people start playing them based on how they know the game is making them work. A brand new player who purchases the game tomorrow and never comes to the forum won't worry about how the loot probabilities work. They will just loot everything as they play and slowly but surely they will start to find better and better things. If they don't know how the heatmap works they will notice that after a few days of living and working in an area a screamer will show up and call in a horde. Too much knowledge and even worse...too much play strategy base upon knowledge your avatar shouldn't have results in things feeling unnatural.

While we are on the subject of loot Roland. I would like to bring up a few things:

First I think that you should be able to find something in those storage boxes that you have to break open. Like the ones at the gun store and the Working stiff. I mean busting upon a packing crate only to find nothing inside doesn't make any since. Why ship a box with nothing in it?

Secondly, searching book shelves should find something. Why are most of them empty? This seems to hold true even in the late stages. Did people suddenly decide to go on a reading competition during the war? Even more scraps of paper would be preferable to finding nothing. But OFC finding books is always best.

Third. I think that the gun store should also carry loads of ammo to in separate ammo storage containers ofc. Not the military ones but something new. I never heard of a gun store just selling guns but no ammo.

Just some ideas that could make the game more fun. What do you think Roland?

 

[sillls]

Hello i've been thinking why the cities dont have a sewer, its would be generathing with the roads in radon gen and have some diferent water that make zombies radiated spawn on this place, just to have more dificult to explore and would be very cool to make some hide roons with awesome loot.
Sorry for my bad english, i'm not fluent :upset:

That is a good question. I guess it that TFP's just haven't gotten around to making this. It has been talked about several times on this forum over the years. But there is only so much that TFP's can do and so they focus on what they think is best for right now.

Maybe we will see it latter. I don't know.

It is a good idea though.