PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[meganoth]

And Yes rabbit on a stick was one of those things...

Rabbit on a stick is a rather worn-out riff on iguano-on-a-stick of the original Fallout 1. Since then half of all post-apocalyptic had a something-on-a-stick in the game. The Urban Dictionary and Google shows that this idiom even reached common language outside of games. This point more than anything shows how subjective all this talk about good or bad features is.

But on the whole, yes, I would like more humor in 7d2D, too.

 

[meganoth]

in my opinion, exp gain is now (a17.1) quite well balanced, killing gives slightly faster xp, but not much. mining and building/upgrading gives pretty good xp too.skillwise,

I see mining xp gain in our co-op game to be giving too much xp, too low at start and too high in mid- and end-game. Minor problem though, fine tuning should fix it eventually

 

[HungryZombie]

I just used the word Oz used solidarity Unanimity is kind of a (potaytoe potahtoe) type thing isn't it.When in fact you did a lot..

I am not denying that ..

but you did change just about every aspect of everything implemented since then.

Not all was is in a forward type motion more often then not it was in a sideways type like....

lets try to implement the same thing another way.

Well what I would call a core feature of the game is everything that was original and unique to this game only and no other game out there.

for instance

Rabbit on a stick..

the way the trees would collapse as they were made of different blocks...

the way the desert plateaus formed..

recently wood log spikes

I can not even think of the many things that were lost. I would have to go back but these are just a few off the top of my head.

Basically like I said it was things that no other game had in them.

It seems that all the originality and unique aspects of the game are being removed all be some slower then others.\

You have to realize that we all perceive things differently. What you consider "core features" I see as minor details.

Core features to me would be things like the 7 day horde. That's been in long enough and enough people are exposed to it that it would drastically change the game.

Whether bacon & eggs costs 5 meat or 4 meat is a detail.

 

[Ouch Quit It]

Mostly disappointed in a17....the forced direction caused by perks and skills just took the fun out of 7DtD for me and all of the people i have been playing with, since A5-6. Playing with choices is now gone...Sure you can get steel by level 35 ..but at the cost of not putting points in anything else needed to survive. Sandbox play has become forced directional play. Casual players are dismayed by the destruction zombies cause and they feel they are being forced to team up with others just to survive.

After 18 mos and this is the iteration we got...nothing works, good systems were replaced with bad or worse. Temperature still doesnt work for F*^# sake. Cmon. The all armor has heat and cold benefits was just a quick bandaid ,,that should be ripped off and thrown away. The constant dumbing down of the game is getting boring and annoying. I bought a PC for a reason, not a CONSOLE. The loss of looting zombies was probably the biggest disappointment, because now you get a bag of nothing every 1000 kills or so. So much importance has been placed on traders, that everyone just builds near them now. Just not worth it IMO. Nights are full of NOTHING and boring. Horde nights are fun if you have 2000 rounds of ammo per player and a base that can withstand the onslaught of superpowered zombies, that destroy everything. You are lucky if you can even grab a single loot drop during a horde night. They disappear half the time. I would rather have more regular zombies then irradiated and flying spider Zs. Log spikes being removed just added to the grind of gathering resource and repairing all day. Yes I know balance needs to be tweaked. How did we go from decent to terrible?

Yes , go ahead and tell me that ..its an alpha or i dont like change or im stuck in A16 ways ...whatever. The game is less fun with less choice. I am considering shutting down my server due to lack of interest from friends, that i have played with for years. Most of you will say good riddance or dont let the door hit you in the ass..blah blah blah..However its sad that after this length of time playing this game it might end with disappointment. I thought A17 would really knock my socks off after the length of time in development, but it didnt, hasnt. I hope that the next few patches might breathe life back into the game for me, but we shall wait and see. Maybe A18, 19 or beyond might get the game back on track. Hopefully the modders will get their hands on it and make a more balanced, enjoyable , playable game like they did with A16..War of the Walkers, Ravenhurst, Medieval, etc. come to mind. Only time will tell.

regards

Ouch

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Rabbit on a stick is a rather worn-out riff on iguano-on-a-stick of the original Fallout 1. Since then half of all post-apocalyptic had a something-on-a-stick in the game. The Urban Dictionary and Google shows that this idiom even reached common language outside of games. This point more than anything shows how subjective all this talk about good or bad features is.
But on the whole, yes, I would like more humor in 7d2D, too.

Bear on a tree ?

 

[HungryZombie]

I would have thought an experimental build was the place to experiment with new fixes until they get stable enough to be pushed to a stable build. I dunno, it does seem like some sort of twisted logic.
Declaring the next build as stable just after the experimental build is released seems good on paper but it does obligate you to release a stable build which may not be quite as stable as you had hoped.

I may have the wrong definitions of experimental and stable though.

Stable doesn't mean sellable. It means running without crashing/becoming unplayable.

 

[meganoth]

Bear on a tree ?

I thought boars-on-giant-sticks was a good idea.

 

[The Gronk]

Stable doesn't mean sellable. It means running without crashing/becoming unplayable.

By that definition the current stable isn't a stable.

A17.1 b9

Known Issues

Crashes on Mac for a possible workaround, please look at https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?101758-Found-workaround-for-constant-crashes-on-Mac&p=914106#post914106

If connection to server fails, try removing steamnetworking as a disabled function from the serverconfig.xml

 

[Jedo]

Playing with choices is now gone...Sandbox play has become forced directional play...
Horde nights are fun if you have 2000 rounds of ammo per player and a base that can withstand the onslaught of superpowered zombies, that destroy everything...

The game is less fun with less choice.

Obviously, choice is good. As I read through your post (and I quoted a prime example), it seems like maybe you are the one who has narrowed the choice. I don't play in the same style as you. I went melee and had a blast during horde night. Maybe choice isn't dead?

 

[Guppycur]

@ouch

Shouldn't have coughed so much.

 

[Joe. Blow]

Omg right !!

Not sure, why people are not liking the game. I am enjoying it considering that RWG is only thing I want to be more randomize then it is now and Roads are not as broken as they are now. And also while on RWG, can we get couple more traders, they are currently very low in game.

Spend more time playing, there are to many good things to list if you've been here from the start.

This has been nothing but fun for so many, you just don't hear much from US players, that's all. The TFP already knows this of course!

 

[Red Eagle LXIX]

Melee weapons... what? They have always worked the way they do now. One raycast exactly when the animation is at that point in time. It only got more accurate because it's driven by the animation, not a completely separate timer. That's why there can now be effects on melee attack speed.

I will agree that it has always been hitscan. However, I will also say it has always been bad and why the Sharpened Stick is the only weapon to ever have behaved in game as it would in real life (and why I want this weapon and animation back). Swung weapons do not match their animation or the effect they would for their visual swing. It may hitscan at the same time that crosshair is on a spot but that does not match the animation as you watch your weapon swing ineffectively through a zed's head and neck.

Further, the whole hitscan is broken once a zed gets too close as it doesn't "hit" when that occurs even if the crosshair is on the zed (often hitting one behind)(this is not even when they are on the same block as the player. An easy test, one can make a waist high box using 4 poles around a center block, stand in the center of your waist high box and once the zeds are against said poles you can swing through zeds as often as hit them even when the crosshair is right in their face).

Maybe all the animations should be changed to the old Poke that the sharpened stick used to use as that was an accurate representation of the melee weapon action.

Then again the issues I mention about hitscan have always been issues. These are not new issues to A17.

EDIT: For The Record, I like most of A17.

 

[Ouch Quit It]

@ouch
Shouldn't have coughed so much.

It was something to do while waiting a year and a half only to be disappointed....

I think TFP is getting bored with the game and just want to finish it and go GOLD..so they are just throwing things in now to complete it ASAP.

Testers had to be in GOD mode the whole time to say that these systems made the game better.

- - - Updated - - -

I will agree that it has always been hitscan. However, I will also say it has always been bad and why the Sharpened Stick is the only weapon to ever have behaved in game as it would in real life (and why I want this weapon and animation back). Swung weapons do not match their animation or the effect they would for their visual swing. It may hitscan at the same time that crosshair is on a spot but that does not match the animation as you watch your weapon swing ineffectively through a zed's head and neck. Further, the whole hitscan is broken once a zed gets too close as it doesn't "hit" when that occurs even if the crosshair is on the zed (often hitting one behind)(this is not even when they are on the same block as the player. An easy test, one can make a waist high box using 4 poles around a center block, stand in the center of your waist high box and once the zeds are against said poles you can swing through zeds as often as hit them even when the crosshair is right in their face).

Maybe all the animations should be changed to the old Poke that the sharpened stick used to use as that was an accurate representation of the melee weapon action.

Then again the issues I mention about hitscan have always been issues. These are not new issues to A17.

EDIT: For The Record, I like most of A17.

YUP...blasting away ....half the shots miss....Guess we havent perked up in rifles or automatic weapons......point blank misses prove that another system needs work...and round and round we go!!

 

[Jay_ombie]

1.20am

Was just on top of a building with no clear way to me from the ground...

Two screamers, brought in around 20 zombies.. The horde tore through the building below I was on and the adjacent building took a beating to.

Zombies destroying blocks seem to hit frames hard... I went down to 18fps from over normally 60+

Funny thing is the building I was on then collapsed, I fell with it landing on my ass but actually didn't take damage. I immediately went into a crouch and backed away from the mass hectic zombie horde that literally surrounded me amongst the carnage that lay beneath.

Oddly enough and amazingly I was not detected nor chased. I was like invisible to them, maybe the dark night itself helped me.

I couldn't believe it... (wish I recorded it)

A few buildings away I crawled through a window and took refuge cowering in a dark corner where I waited there till 4am.

The End.

 

[dcsobral]

Feedback on perk distribution:

I'm trying to play a no-Intelligence character build in Single Player, and it's WAY harder than any other build I tried. No perception is fine, no strength is probably the second harder, but still doable, no fortitude and no agility are very easy. Magazines don't help either, since the Intelligence locked skills all require Intelligence 4 at minimum, so you can't use a magazine as a one-shot thing. In most games I played SP, Intelligence is, in fact, the primary perk tree, even when I wanted to do something else. I had to forbid myself from putting any points in it, and, even then, I almost broken down and did it anyway more than once.

The main issue has been availability of craftable items, particularly at higher quality which is required for mods. There are three ways of getting things:

* You can loot items;

* You can buy items;

* You can craft items.

Of the three, two of them are controlled by Intelligence. On top of that, Lucky Looter does not seem to change the quality of the items you loot, so we end up not having _any_ way of getting higher quality items without putting points in Intelligence.

Perception and Strength are obvious skills, both helping with combat and something else, whereas Fortitude and Agility are definitely secondary.

Fortitude and Agility skills suffer in multiple ways. Some of them are mostly useful early game, and then lose their value, such as Huntsman, Slow Metabolism and Living off the Land (after level 1). Some of them are _only_ useful at higher levels, which decrease their urgency and, therefore, the incentive to increase Fortitude and Agility. That's the case, for example, of Pain Tolerance which brings no visible effect on a per level basis (a stark contrast to, say, Pack Mule), or Parkour which doesn't really influence anything you can do until you hit level 3.

Fortitude and Agility have _some_ influence in combat due to the armor skills, but the armor skill is also very poor. Heavy armor is really difficult to use without vehicles, so you tend to forsake them (and Fortitude) early game. Heavy and Light Armor skills both fall in the "no visible gain per-level" category. Also, the Light Armor skill doesn't play to its strength, which is low stamina and movement penalty, and Heavy Armor doesn't play to its weakness, which is high stamina and movement penalty. I think both Armor skills would be much more attractive, and push interest in their attribute trees, if they played to their strength 1 through 5, and their weakness 3 through 5. So Heavy Armor keeps current bonus, but adds decreased movement and stamina penalty at 3, 4 and 5, and Light Armor gets _further_ decreased movement and stamina penalty (up to no penalty at level 5), and increased effectiveness at 3, 4 and 5. I think this simple change would greatly increase interest in their respective attributes, and once the attribute goes up, buying other skills in the attribute tree becomes more valuable.

- - - Updated - - -

Feedback on Safes:

They shouldn't be destroyed when collapsed. Come on, can you think of 7d2d-sized buildings collapsing, in real life, and something like the gunsafe taking anything more than a few dents?

 

[dcsobral]

Feedback on Continue Game screen:

PLEASE put in-game date&time in the screen! Knowing when you last played a game is slightly useful, but knowing how many days along the game is, or what time it will be when it loads, it much more so.

Player level/gamestage for whoever is loading the game would also be nice.

 

[beerfly]

Anyone have problem with tier 2 quests ? I was told to go to a house in Perishton , near the cathedral,Being unable to find the hidden supplies for half ingame day. Killed more than 10 green fellas and thats all. ..Anyone ?

 

[Jedo]

Fortitude and Agility have _some_ influence in combat due to the armor skills, but the armor skill is also very poor. Heavy armor is really difficult to use without vehicles, so you tend to forsake them (and Fortitude) early game. Heavy and Light Armor skills both fall in the "no visible gain per-level" category. Also, the Light Armor skill doesn't play to its strength, which is low stamina and movement penalty, and Heavy Armor doesn't play to its weakness, which is high stamina and movement penalty. I think both Armor skills would be much more attractive, and push interest in their attribute trees, if they played to their strength 1 through 5, and their weakness 3 through 5. So Heavy Armor keeps current bonus, but adds decreased movement and stamina penalty at 3, 4 and 5, and Light Armor gets _further_ decreased movement and stamina penalty (up to no penalty at level 5), and increased effectiveness at 3, 4 and 5. I think this simple change would greatly increase interest in their respective attributes, and once the attribute goes up, buying other skills in the attribute tree becomes more valuable.

I was thinking about this in my current game. I'm going mainly strength (for melee), and I've almost maxed out the tree. I was considering where I should go next. I just finished a horde night where I got dangerously low on health, so I looked at the armor options. Both were underwhelming.

 

[Gnomaana]

Hey there. I came back to the game recently after a long hiatus and I've really been trying to understand the perspective behind taking action skills and looted recipes out of the game. I appreciate that you've posted this and I'd like to discuss it.
Essentially, the issue that you had with action skills in A16 is that you did not like the pace at which you were progressing in certain skills, relative to the pace at which you were naturally performing the skills' related activities, correct? In other words, you wanted to progress faster than the game was rewarding you for playing at your natural pace. In response, you put your immersion on hold temporarily while you repeated an activity for the sole purpose of progressing it faster.

I don't understand how A17 has benefitted you at all in this regard. The actions you end up repeating for the sake of progressing faster than your natural pace has now decreased from a few varied activities, to whichever single activity has been arbitrarily balanced in the current version of the game to be the most efficient use of your time regarding XP. In other words, in A17 you need to repeat this one arbitrarily selected activity above your natural pace as much as you needed to repeat all other activities combined in A16, to achieve the same outcome of progressing your skills faster than your natural pace.

Worse than that, the removal of the ability to find and learn recipes from loot has put even more pressure on the perk system and therefore even more pressure to repeat the single most efficient xp harvesting activity.

---------------------

For me, the action skills were basically the game recognizing the things which I actually did in the game and giving me bonuses for having done them. These bonuses made each activity a little more real and a little more important. A16 respected the time you put into each activity by rewarding you with organic growth, and with the most efficient path towards maximizing your power in those skills. Concurrently the free XP earned in tandem with the skill xp provided folks who didn't want to repeat actions for the sake of getting better, to become reasonably proficient without spending much time in a specific skill. This last aspect mitigated your issue, did it not?

Regardless, I think the real problem with the change comes down to simple comparisons, such as

Is it more fun to make your character shoot better, by

1. Using a pistol in the game to defend yourself and your base

or

2. Clicking on "SHOOT BETTER" in a menu after doing whatever?

Is it more fun to make your character learn how to craft an iron chestpiece, by

1. Going out into the world amongst the dangers and obtaining the schematic in a lucky find

or

2. Clicking on "LEARN HOW TO CRAFT IRON CHESTPIECE" in a menu after doing whatever?

The point being, 7 Days does not have a story like Fallout New Vegas. In 7 Days the character IS the story...and the action skills and looted recipes were the dynamic evidence of that story. The stuff you found, the stuff you crafted, the stuff you planted, the stuff you built, and all the things you had to shoot along the way in order to clear a path to all that stuff and to keep your base standing...the rewards came directly from and according to the things you DID...not indirectly, and entirely disconnected from your specific actions, through a menu.

---------------------

So my question to you: do you honestly spend less time repeating an action for the sake of improving faster, now that action skills and looted recipes have been removed? I ask, because I've been playing since A5, and I have never had to repeat an action for the sake of improving faster like I had to in A17. Thanks

I was going to reply to this with a paragraph or two explaining my feelings but I realized there is no point. This is EXACTLY how I feel about A17 so far.

One of, if not the single best, feeling in A16 was getting that Minibike book. Can anyone point to that "AHA! This is great!" moment in A17?

 

[Jay_ombie]

I like to pose a question as to why I could not gain entry by going through this window, the gap looks visually big enough, I even crouched yet still could not go through that gap.