PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[rdunham3]

By end game I mean I can craft pretty decent tools, I can have a farm to get rid of any hunger challenges, game throws weapons at me more than I can sell so Im done with that too, Im couple levels away to craft a minibike. and that's at day 3 to 5 tops.

That's more like having surpassed the early game challenge of the environment and hunger not killing you. That's more or less where taking on zombies and the dungeon-style POI's becomes the main focus of the game. That, and preparing for some sort of blood moon strategy.

Blood moons aren't my favorite part of the game, but they're certainly one of the major obstacles/challenges the game is designed to have. Iron tools and some form of transportation are minor achievements.

 

[Maynard69]

Saw it on my test world and thought it was a crap mod,why would i need to jump like that when I can just drive?

Thats funny, I dont use vehicles except rarely or very late game. I dont play longer days, and I dont turn the difficulty down. I turn it up. That way I dont have to complain that things are "too easy" or "I got there too quick" like you guys.

From what I can tell that mod is on par with a minibike or motorcycle. Its for sure faster than a bike to get around. Also it doesnt get damaged by inclines or pebbles in the road or use gas. Far from "crap" mod tho. But Idk, i dont have much to compare it with because I never ruin my surprises by testing in a fake game or spawning stuff in.

 

[Sarsante]

That's more like having surpassed the early game challenge of the environment and hunger not killing you. That's more or less where taking on zombies and the dungeon-style POI's becomes the main focus of the game. That, and preparing for some sort of blood moon strategy.
Blood moons aren't my favorite part of the game, but they're certainly one of the major obstacles/challenges the game is designed to have. Iron tools and some form of transportation are minor achievements.

I can clear a dungeon from day 1, with rex and crusher.

Iron tools and a vehicle is not a minor achievement. Using both you can easily farm all resources in the game pretty much without any risk. A pack of wolves/dogs? hop in and you're safe and that's pretty much the only things that can kill you outside a dungeon.

You can cover more area, that means farm more resources, clear more poi's then you snowball pretty hard after you get to iron and vehicles.

 

[9nines]

Thats funny, I dont use vehicles except rarely or very late game. I dont play longer days, and I dont turn the difficulty down. I turn it up. That way I dont have to complain that things are "too easy" or "I got there too quick" like you guys.

So if I was playing on max difficulty,played one hour days and still managed to get the same effect out you'd stop trolling?lol seems a bit of biase here.Also vehicles are in the game to be used,just because you choose not to does not mean I can not.

- - - Updated - - -

I can clear a dungeon from day 1, with rex and crusher.
Iron tools and a vehicle is not a minor achievement. Using both you can easily farm all resources in the game pretty much without any risk. A pack of wolves/dogs? hop in and you're safe and that's pretty much the only things that can kill you outside a dungeon.

You can cover more area, that means farm more resources, clear more poi's then you snowball pretty hard after you get to iron and vehicles.

Exactly,thats why I do the starter quests right off the bat to run to the nearest trader and see what they can offer me.Past couple of updates,I have been able to atleast get a lv5 machete or lv4 sledge for around 7k dukes which is easy if you hit military bases or loot gun stores.

 

[SnowDog1942]

Wow you go that far? My end game is punching a piece of grass.

I know im in the minority here but my "end game" is not based on what level I am.

I play dead is dead. Once I feel there is no longer a threat of me dying Im done. The main measurement would probably be easily beating the max gamestage Blood Moon Horde (without cheesing) . If i can do this there is no longer a point to play as it wont get any harder and there is no threat of dying. My level dont matter and I dont rush, in fact im probably slow at leveling because Im very carefull and always trying not to die.

If i can level up 30 more times to get stronger I really dont care as its not needed, I already won.

I havent played A17 enough to get to that point, I like waiting for stable. But hopefully its a bit harder and takes a bit longer than the snoozefest known as vanilla A16.4

 

[Roland]

It seems you have a biased view of us "speedsters".We dont want to clear the game and brag about it but instead we wanna hit the hard stuff as early game is a piece of cake.If I dont see atleast 2-4 glowing zombies and cops in my first horde,ive been slacking becuase that means it is too easy.I play on warrior difficulty to make them hard but not bullet sponges and I even play with machete as it makes me have less reach so more of a chance of getting hit.

This might be one view but it is not the only view posted by efficiency players over the past couple of years (including back to A15 with its spam crafting mechanic). Besides if you can get to ferals and irradiateds in 5 game days then what's your complaint? You played how you wanted to get to the gamestage you desired. Now play with those tougher enemies and larger hordes.

No...by far the largest complaints from your group are that the early game is too boring and grindy because you are gimped as a character and they want to get past the vulnerability part of the game to the invulnerability part of the game as quickly as possible..and then they realize that a game with zero threat and risk is not as fun as they thought it would be...go figure.

They say things like the devs are lazy because they keep stretching out the early game instead of adding on even more challenging content to the end. But this is the big lie. If the developers added challenging content that threatened those players they would speed as fast as they could to get past those threats and again feel invulnerable and if they couldn't they would complain that the endgame is......grindy, boring, and unfair.

Then they would complain again and say that the new endgame content was no longer endgame and TFP should add on even more endgame content....

The game IS the journey from vulnerable to invulnerable and if that journey is not fun for you maybe it isn't the right game for you. Nothing wrong with that. I don't have fun with RTS games and I don't play them. I definitely don't play this one like an RTS...

 

[Maynard69]

So if I was playing on max difficulty,played one hour days and still managed to get the same effect out you'd stop trolling?lol seems a bit of biase here.Also vehicles are in the game to be used,just because you choose not to does not mean I can not.

Sure if you get the same result with 1/2 the time and on a higher difficulty, and post screenshots to prove everything is exactly the same. I will admit that your complaints have twice as much merit as they did before. 2x0

And no vehicles are in the game as a "choice" to use them. I never made any comment about you using them at all. I only stated my preferences. You know what the say about ASSumtions

 

[icehot]

I know im in the minority here but my "end game" is not based on what level I am.
I play dead is dead. Once I feel there is no longer a threat of me dying Im done. The main measurement would probably br easily beating the max gamestage Blood Moon Horde (without cheesing) . If i can do this there is no longer a point to play as it wont get any harder and there is no threat of dying. My level dont matter and I dont rush, in fact im probably slow at leveling because Im very carefull and always trying not to die.

If i can level up 30 more times to get stronger I really dont care as its not needed, I already won.

I havent played A17 enough to get to that point, I like waiting for stable. But hopefully its a bit harder and takes a bit longer than the snoozefest known as vanilla A16.4

I don't play dead is dead, though I do get annoyed if I get killed as I can appreciate the concept, and I do actively try to avoid being killed even without a death penalty. But I agree with you on the end game being where you feel there's nothing left to do, that's what I did in A16, you have everything, resources are abundant, and zombies are little more than an annoyance - but surely in anything of this nature that's the end game. I tended in A16 to get to that point by day 80 or 90 maybe - I remember when I stopped my last A16 game which was when I was pottering around on the minibike wondering what now?

Edit: The same thing can happen in real life too actually, I'm 40 now, and have pretty much got to where I aimed to get to in life when I was still a student, got kids, a place to live, food is easy enough, my job isn't that challenging anymore because I've been doing it for 20 years and am now classed as the senior in my position. The only way up now is management, which to me seems completely boring dealing with people problems all the time. So anything that simulates life will eventually get to that point, surely?

 

[9nines]

This might be one view but it is not the only view posted by efficiency players over the past couple of years (including back to A15 with its spam crafting mechanic). Besides if you can get to ferals and irradiateds in 5 game days then what's your complaint? You played how you wanted to get to the gamestage you desired. Now play with those tougher enemies and larger hordes.
No...by far the largest complaints from your group are that the early game is too boring and grindy because you are gimped as a character and they want to get past the vulnerability part of the game to the invulnerability part of the game as quickly as possible..and then they realize that a game with zero threat and risk is not as fun as they thought it would be...go figure.

They say things like the devs are lazy because they keep stretching out the early game instead of adding on even more challenging content to the end. But this is the big lie. If the developers added challenging content that threatened those players they would speed as fast as they could to get past those threats and again feel invulnerable and if they couldn't they would complain that the endgame is......grindy, boring, and unfair.

Then they would complain again and say that the new endgame content was no longer endgame and TFP should add on even more endgame content....

The game IS the journey from vulnerable to invulnerable and if that journey is not fun for you maybe it isn't the right game for you. Nothing wrong with that. I don't have fun with RTS games and I don't play them. I definitely don't play this one like an RTS...

If we are able to speed through early game it must not be that hard of a vulnerability as I normally can get a few forges up and running within a few hours if I really wanted.Heck I did a few trader missions and got steel tools or heavy armor for easy ones. I hate pretty much all games but survival ones. I quit warframe after maxing out everything back then in about 1k hrs for example.I have played rust for 2.5k and ark for 2.5k along with subsistence and subnatica. I am a survival player becuase I want a challenge and early game in most games is not a vulnerability but the easiest time in the game.

Need more ammo early game? Kill a vulture for enough arrows to handle most roaming hordes.

Need a good melee to hold out till you can craft better?Use the axe or a club to easily beat most zombies you will see.

Need iron? Smack a few boulders on the surface and youll have the same iron in 20mins that would take you hours underground.

Need food? loot a gas station or shamway or a bigger kitchened POI.

 

[madmole]

For the most part I'm liking the changes in this latest build. The only real issue I have (and it's not unique to B233) is the fact that I can't cook any food unless I buy a perk. I can somehow instinctively weave a set of clothing and a sleeping bag, boil up a pot of water and fill a bunch of jars with the clean water, but boiling a damn egg is somehow beyond me?
Can a Pimp please comment on this?

I guess you can cook charred meat and boil water. I can make boiled eggs perk less.

 

[Maynard69]

I can clear a dungeon from day 1, with rex and crusher.
Iron tools and a vehicle is not a minor achievement. Using both you can easily farm all resources in the game pretty much without any risk. A pack of wolves/dogs? hop in and you're safe and that's pretty much the only things that can kill you outside a dungeon.

You can cover more area, that means farm more resources, clear more poi's then you snowball pretty hard after you get to iron and vehicles.

I totally agree that all vehicles should be gated to lvl100. lmao

 

[Roland]

By end game I mean I can craft pretty decent tools, I can have a farm to get rid of any hunger challenges, game throws weapons at me more than I can sell so Im done with that too, Im couple levels away to craft a minibike. and that's at day 3 to 5 tops.
edit: I missed some of the questions you asked (gonna check them and edit again)

What level are you on by Day 5? (You need to be level 21 at a minimum to reach the max of one attribute tree with zero perks purchased) - round 20 without much effort

I disagree that level 20ish is endgame. There is still a lot of the game to explore and even a lot of your character to progress at that point. I can see what you mean by things are a lot easier by that point but that is only because you haven't even defended vs one bloodmoon yet and the first two bloodmoons are rarely as interesting as all the rest starting at day 21 once you've had 21 days worth of gamestage building.

When you say "clear a POI" do you mean loot it completely or kill every sleeper or both?both

I often leave sleepers behind. I loot and dodge and run over to another part of the building and loot some more while waiting for the zombies to catch up-- kind of Resident Evil style. I do kill as well but not exclusively and for me it makes each POI fun by mixing up how I do it. I try to put myself in each situation and ask myself if I would REALLY risk combating the zombies rather than avoiding them. I rarely stop to kill wandering zombies in the wildnerness...just leave them to eat my dust as I travel. Going out of my way to kill every zombie feel unnatural and really the only reason to do it is...to be earning xp efficiently.

How long are your days?60 minutes

What difficulty are playing?

warrior

What speeds are your zombies set to?

default

I highly recommend jog or run during the day. They make POI clearing a whole new experience.

How do you account for complaints from OTHER players that the new system is too slow? Why aren't they at endgame by day 5 and not only that why do they feel that endgame is way beyond the amount of time they can put in?some play badly and most really want play creative to build castles but they dont want set the game to creative or disable enemies spawn. so they complain game its too hard.

So here is the truth. They aren't playing poorly and you aren't playing wrong. People are simply playing how they play and it either brings them joy or dissatisfaction. I can tell you right now that it is going to be impossible to balance the game for the slowpokes and the speedsters in a way that will prolong the game to the satisfaction of the speedsters but not make it unbearable for the slowpokes. So the only recourse for those two extremes is to mod the game to support their playstyle or modify how they play to fit the intended pacing of the game.

 

[Roland]

I guess you can cook charred meat and boil water. I can make boiled eggs perk less.

make it use and consume a can of water....

 

[FileMachete]

I guess you can cook charred meat and boil water. I can make boiled eggs perk less.

MM, or maybe a non-Perked Fryed Egg if you have a cooking pot?

Edit: hmm... like the can idea, since no pot required(?) maybe allow the can to be dirty water? Gonna boil it anyway ...?

 

[Sarsante]

This might be one view but it is not the only view posted by efficiency players over the past couple of years (including back to A15 with its spam crafting mechanic). Besides if you can get to ferals and irradiateds in 5 game days then what's your complaint? You played how you wanted to get to the gamestage you desired. Now play with those tougher enemies and larger hordes.
No...by far the largest complaints from your group are that the early game is too boring and grindy because you are gimped as a character and they want to get past the vulnerability part of the game to the invulnerability part of the game as quickly as possible..and then they realize that a game with zero threat and risk is not as fun as they thought it would be...go figure.

They say things like the devs are lazy because they keep stretching out the early game instead of adding on even more challenging content to the end. But this is the big lie. If the developers added challenging content that threatened those players they would speed as fast as they could to get past those threats and again feel invulnerable and if they couldn't they would complain that the endgame is......grindy, boring, and unfair.

Then they would complain again and say that the new endgame content was no longer endgame and TFP should add on even more endgame content....

The game IS the journey from vulnerable to invulnerable and if that journey is not fun for you maybe it isn't the right game for you. Nothing wrong with that. I don't have fun with RTS games and I don't play them. I definitely don't play this one like an RTS...

I think we have enough end game content, the only issue is how fast we can get to it.

Let's think in a very reasonable middle term way, shall we? Please let me know what you think its just try hard or to be excessively efficient.

Considering default settings, for the first lets say 10 levels we can round it up to 10k exp per level, ok?

So day 1 you do your basic quests (+4 skill points) and clear one small POI with 6 zombies to spend the night and make your first base.

6*550 = 3,3k + 1k trader quest + idk 500 exp from the basics quests

5k exp by the end of day 1.

I feel it's pretty reasonable in 45 minutes of day light, an average player can clear 2 small POi's. That's what? Around 20 zombies, I think it's a fair number.

Also it's pretty reasonable consider a player can fight one wandering horde per day, another what? 10 zombies?

So we have 30 zombies kill minimum, by only playing the game. Not power levelling or anything.

30 x 550 = 16500 minimum, because some zombies give more exp.

By the end of day 2 21500 exp minimum.

At day 3, after clear couple poi's a bad player can probably clear 3-4 small poi's.

4 small poi's = 40 zombies

1 wandering horde = 10 zombies

50 * 550 = 27500

By the end of day 3 49k exp, consider couple trees and boulders 50k. So by the end of day 3, we're talking about 9 skill points to spend.

Same thing on day 4 and 5 = 55k exp

Day 6 we can see some progress and now he can go for a medium size dungeon. How many zombies you think it's reasonable? 25? Plus a medium POi with 12 of them, plus the wandering horde that we fight every day +10 = 47 zombies

47 * 550 = 25.8k exp

lets add everything: 50k + 55k + 25.8k = 130k

So by just playing the game an average dude can be level 13 by the end of day 6. thats 17 skill points.

We didnt even consider exp for anything else, like killing/harvesting animais, farming wood, stone, iron, doing any quest, selling anything.

So if I say I'll probably be around 20 clearing more POi's per day, I can't see how Im rushing. How Im doing anything wrong besides playing the game?

 

[Roland]

If we are able to speed through early game it must not be that hard of a vulnerability as I normally can get a few forges up and running within a few hours if I really wanted.Heck I did a few trader missions and got steel tools or heavy armor for easy ones. I hate pretty much all games but survival ones. I quit warframe after maxing out everything back then in about 1k hrs for example.I have played rust for 2.5k and ark for 2.5k along with subsistence and subnatica. I am a survival player becuase I want a challenge and early game in most games is not a vulnerability but the easiest time in the game.
Need more ammo early game? Kill a vulture for enough arrows to handle most roaming hordes.

Need a good melee to hold out till you can craft better?Use the axe or a club to easily beat most zombies you will see.

Need iron? Smack a few boulders on the surface and youll have the same iron in 20mins that would take you hours underground.

Need food? loot a gas station or shamway or a bigger kitchened POI.

I get it, I get it. You don't know how NOT to play excellently.

 

[FileMachete]

Question;

Previously there was a 'code(?)' thingy that only supported getting 1 'item' back from a "craft", right?

So the Boiled Egg couldn't return the Glass Jar.

Not a big deal now based on abundance of Water/Jars I've been seeing, but wondering if that limitation still applies?

 

[wolffblood]

My view:

That's a thing though, every game has an end, every single one. How long it takes and what you have to do is what matters. Most people don't keep playing after the end, and most games are not meant for that (most games have a New Game+ with much higher difficulty is all). Due to this, there should always be more in leading up to the end than the end itself. Even MMOs, there's a point you beat every raid and have all the best gear, you finally beat the game, it's done, any more playing gets you no where. Really, end game is also defined by content doable only at max level, which is not here since not many hit max level and the game is still in development. Really end game, currently, would be as SnowDog said, it's when you beat the highest game stage without losing anything hard to make on your base because it won't inherently get harder. At least for easiest definition and one that actually pertains to full end of the game play ability short of wanting to get literally everything in the game or have massive creations.

The rest is usually early, mid, late game. I feel like people will rush to late game (steel/military for this case) then hate and get bored of then progressing through levels and days to get to the highest game stage to finally beat the end game. That's at least my take on it all.

If there was more to do between starting and getting better gear, people would feel less inclined to rush to late game items. This is where their story line will come in that they are working on. Helps with the dialogue now working and how the new buff system is in place and all. They can now do awesome stuff that will take time. Maybe at some point create those "invulnerable" houses, make it to where you had to do a quest line to get a key that is used to go into this house, when you open this house, you have to clear it of the stronger zombies and once you get to the end, you open a door and it lets loose new zombies out into the world and now have to deal with that. And now you have new zombies that can spawn in biomes, hordes, etc. Doing things like that still gives people freedom to do what they want, but takes longer getting to the end since now quests, dungeons, etc. are now involved to open up to mid to late game. There's so much now they can do and I look forward to it.

Or maybe new gear at some point later on? New blocks? I don't know, but even if they don't, this game allows modders to be able to do all these things, and now they just made a game that can be used for hundreds of modders to work into their own game. I just see the possibilities this game can go even now if say TFP decided to quit. I can't wait to see what TFP decides, or Ravenhearts, Valmod, True Survival, etc. They're all fun and each is like it's own game.

 

[Roland]

I think we have enough end game content, the only issue is how fast we can get to it.
Let's think in a very reasonable middle term way, shall we? Please let me know what you think its just try hard or to be excessively efficient.

Considering default settings, for the first lets say 10 levels we can round it up to 10k exp per level, ok?

So day 1 you do your basic quests (+4 skill points) and clear one small POI with 6 zombies to spend the night and make your first base.

6*550 = 3,3k + 1k trader quest + idk 500 exp from the basics quests

5k exp by the end of day 1.

I feel it's pretty reasonable in 45 minutes of day light, an average player can clear 2 small POi's. That's what? Around 20 zombies, I think it's a fair number.

Also it's pretty reasonable consider a player can fight one wandering horde per day, another what? 10 zombies?

So we have 30 zombies kill minimum, by only playing the game. Not power levelling or anything.

30 x 550 = 16500 minimum, because some zombies give more exp.

By the end of day 2 21500 exp minimum.

At day 3, after clear couple poi's a bad player can probably clear 3-4 small poi's.

4 small poi's = 40 zombies

1 wandering horde = 10 zombies

50 * 550 = 27500

By the end of day 3 49k exp, consider couple trees and boulders 50k. So by the end of day 3, we're talking about 9 skill points to spend.

Same thing on day 4 and 5 = 55k exp

Day 6 we can see some progress and now he can go for a medium size dungeon. How many zombies you think it's reasonable? 25? Plus a medium POi with 12 of them, plus the wandering horde that we fight every day +10 = 47 zombies

47 * 550 = 25.8k exp

lets add everything: 50k + 55k + 25.8k = 130k

So by just playing the game an average dude can be level 13 by the end of day 6. thats 17 skill points.

We didnt even consider exp for anything else, like killing/harvesting animais, farming wood, stone, iron, doing any quest, selling anything.

So if I say I'll probably be around 20 clearing more POi's per day, I can't see how Im rushing. How Im doing anything wrong besides playing the game?

Not wrong. You are playing correctly for you except that you aren't happy with it.

I have never cleared 2 POI's on my first day. I usually take over the first one I come to which is usually one of the trashy non-level designed wilderness houses. I improve the upper floor and remove access to it, finish up my quest by placing a fireplace, replacing my bedroll, and crafting a chest to empty everything into. Then I spend the rest of the day gathering basic materials.

Day 2 I travel to the trader and often skip zombies I encounter in the wilderness. I hunt every animal I come across to the trader and back again to my initial camp. Then I start exploring outward and scavenging in POI's. I do not hunt down and kill every zombie. I let wandering hordes move past. When threatened I kill to defend. I also start working on making flagstone blocks in anticipation of my first base.

I usually stay in the first house until after Day 7 which pretty much hoses it. Then I move closer to the trader and build my own base. Week 2 is getting that base ready. I am usually level 8-10 by Day 7 and having a great time. I have zero complaints about my pacing or what the game throws at me. The game plays out like an apocalyptic story or an episode of The Walking Dead. But playing like this....letting zombies go by....would probably drive you crazy, eh?

 

[9nines]

I get it, I get it. You don't know how NOT to play excellently.

Na,I ♥♥♥♥ up at times as we are all not perfect but still early game is the easiest becuase its not hard to advance from a lump of wood and a bow. lol ps fun challenge,try to make lv10 with only using bone shiv as a weapon....gotta say that was fun yet annoying.