I made my anvil out of 5 or 6 brown wrenches I had to spare from looting apartments/hotels for dye and clothes. No mining required. Took no time because I was already looting for other stuff. That or I would have kept the anvil I looted from the tool shop if I would have realized the cost of it.
PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17
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MaxLawless
New member
Re Mac OS crashing - Since A17E I've been running it on bootcamp/win 10 (2017 mbp) - runs better than in OSX anyway 
I am also one who also dislikes the proportions of Dungeon POI vs Normal POI. I dont enjoy jump scares, and I tend to ignore alot of the dungeons because of that. I just hope this isnt working towards all POIs being dungeons and phasing out the old style. 50/50 I could live with.
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SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
I wish they had kept both versions of the ones that were converted to Dungeons in the game. The more variation the better - and yes... too many dungeons... they get old quick.
Not sure if it helps, but don't look too much at the xp. Perks are nice but to make a secure base you need the building materials and a good plan of defense.
In my SP (b199) I needed two days mining/chopping to produce enough cobblestone and spikes that worked well against the first blood moon horde. Imagine what you can build if you do 4 days of mining and chopping. It doesn't matter that your arrows do 10% less damage than mine if your base is twice as strong as mine.
It seems you can clear a dungeon POI by making loud noises (shooting, banging on the walls) and drawing out the zombies. Then kill them out in the open street. Then carefully loot it, there still may be zombies in there, but not many. You don't need to go loot every POI, but for better equipment you should from time to time.
Jugginator
Moderator
I've seen normal POIs but yeah, I think the dungeons are beautifully creative and fun, but they should be in addition to the normal ones.
Roland
Moderator
Attempt at having a serious discussion
I agree that some will move on and discontinue their association with 7 Days to Die. I don't think developers can worry about these people as they make decisions. They have to develop according to their own sense of what is right and then make modifications if those modifications can make the game more approachable and yet not compromise their vision. I see changing from level gates to point economy as an example of this. Their entire perk system is still in place with the exception of switching from an arbitrary gating mechanic to one that allows people to choose whether they spread out or specialize. There will be a need for tuning the new way of progressing through the perk system so that no part is overly marginalized or skipped altogether but that will take time. I also believe that people playing a game for 1000's of hours and ultimately stopping and playing a new game is perfectly natural and normal and not something that is bad or worrisome.
As for other changes, the pendulum is going to continue to swing. Default Vanilla does not denote extreme difficulty nor complete simplicity. But they can't find the midpoint unless they first find both endpoints. They will settle on something that is tough but not extreme. If that is going to destroy vanilla for you then why not mod more extreme difficuly into the game for those who want more extreme difficulty? Oh wait, that is exactly what you do.
Perks are completely different and much better implemented than A16
Progression through those perks is different than A16
Quests: maybe you don't like them but I do and they far exceed A16
Zombie speeds: recent change but a game changer compared to A16
Survival System: Hunger and Stamina and Health are way better than A16 regardless of needing more work
Bicycle: Love it and it makes A17 better than A16 by itself
Loot: Love finding guns rather than parts
Mods: These are one of the best additions to the game and more and more are coming. Nothing like it in A16
Crafting XP: Never got this in A16 but you do get it in A17
Parties: Sharing xp gains and working together on quests and specializing in different areas makes co-op better than A16
Temperature: It actually works with the way clothing is done. Way better than A16
Buff System: So many more buffs with more on the way to make life interesting
In addition, most of those systems can be modded for even more powerful and amazing results by whatever unjaded modders choose to continue. So I don't buy that A17 is less than A16 just because default numbers on wandering hordes and sleepers populating POI's have been reduced. That is simply one facet and frankly a facet that had its own group of people cheering for.
By the way it is random. I did get a realistic looking town including the skyscrapers again. Wait...is the inclusion of the skyscrapers a nasty backtrack to A16 too?
To me, this sounds like you believe the game is a lost cause and that you have completely figured out the way the game is headed and it is a bad place and that long time players like you aren't going to stick around because it is unreasonable for TFP to expect those who have followed their game to continue to have to adapt and change with the new iterations.
I agree that some will move on and discontinue their association with 7 Days to Die. I don't think developers can worry about these people as they make decisions. They have to develop according to their own sense of what is right and then make modifications if those modifications can make the game more approachable and yet not compromise their vision. I see changing from level gates to point economy as an example of this. Their entire perk system is still in place with the exception of switching from an arbitrary gating mechanic to one that allows people to choose whether they spread out or specialize. There will be a need for tuning the new way of progressing through the perk system so that no part is overly marginalized or skipped altogether but that will take time. I also believe that people playing a game for 1000's of hours and ultimately stopping and playing a new game is perfectly natural and normal and not something that is bad or worrisome.
Well I suspect that new people with modding skills will come along. It has already happened. Once upon a time for a long while Starvation and Valmod were THE overhaul mods to play. There were tons of smaller mods but those two were king. Then Ravenhearst came on the scene. Medieval Mod is growing in popularity and is relatively new. Next year there could be another new mod that sweeps the playerbase and the year after that another one. I don't want the developers checking with all the modders before they implement their vision to make sure nothing is going to make a popular author jaded and walk away.
Sorry but I disagree with you completely on your analysis of what we have. It is not "The new random gen". It is a step along a path that Kinyajuu is following. It does not add to any trend of returning to A16 standards because it is temporary. This is not a great case in point it is a horrible case in point.
I do notice a lot of posts saying they HATE this RWG. But those posts are worthless for feedback because the current implementation is not intended as the new direction. The pregenerated maps is brand new and Kinyajuu is trying to get RWG back up to par using this new feature. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if when he's done there won't be an option to choose North to South static snow to desert style maps or full patchwork random biome style maps. Probably a good question to ask and see what response we might get rather than ranting about backtracking.
As for other changes, the pendulum is going to continue to swing. Default Vanilla does not denote extreme difficulty nor complete simplicity. But they can't find the midpoint unless they first find both endpoints. They will settle on something that is tough but not extreme. If that is going to destroy vanilla for you then why not mod more extreme difficuly into the game for those who want more extreme difficulty? Oh wait, that is exactly what you do.
You are joking right?
Perks are completely different and much better implemented than A16
Progression through those perks is different than A16
Quests: maybe you don't like them but I do and they far exceed A16
Zombie speeds: recent change but a game changer compared to A16
Survival System: Hunger and Stamina and Health are way better than A16 regardless of needing more work
Bicycle: Love it and it makes A17 better than A16 by itself
Loot: Love finding guns rather than parts
Mods: These are one of the best additions to the game and more and more are coming. Nothing like it in A16
Crafting XP: Never got this in A16 but you do get it in A17
Parties: Sharing xp gains and working together on quests and specializing in different areas makes co-op better than A16
Temperature: It actually works with the way clothing is done. Way better than A16
Buff System: So many more buffs with more on the way to make life interesting
In addition, most of those systems can be modded for even more powerful and amazing results by whatever unjaded modders choose to continue. So I don't buy that A17 is less than A16 just because default numbers on wandering hordes and sleepers populating POI's have been reduced. That is simply one facet and frankly a facet that had its own group of people cheering for.
Okay. We'll see. It will be a combo break if so...
Was this particular line representative of you sincerely trying to pick Joel's brain or just an over reaction to a temporary step of development?
By the way it is random. I did get a realistic looking town including the skyscrapers again. Wait...is the inclusion of the skyscrapers a nasty backtrack to A16 too?
8bitkronik
New member
I really don't know who the developers listen to but it can't be this forum.
The skill/perk system wasn't t that bad to where the community wanted it to be reformed.
The community has issues on balancing and experience points and how pitifully having to fight zombies when you barely have a means to is not a pleasant gaming experience.
Alpha 15 sounds harder just because you can't jack a forge/workbench/chemistry station.
We can still have a game that challenges the community and is enjoyable at the same time.
The skill/perk system wasn't t that bad to where the community wanted it to be reformed.
The community has issues on balancing and experience points and how pitifully having to fight zombies when you barely have a means to is not a pleasant gaming experience.
Alpha 15 sounds harder just because you can't jack a forge/workbench/chemistry station.
We can still have a game that challenges the community and is enjoyable at the same time.
Roland
Moderator
Experimental isn't for playing normally. It is for the developers to test the bounds of what they wish to balance. They do what is best for development and we cope...or don't opt in since it isn't a forced update. True story, in earlier internal builds I was often forced to play in play-styles I was against because the devs would unhook things that made my normal play impossible. This is what testing a game is like and it is exactly what you paid for.
The passive xp should normalize soon once they can get a handle on it. Their intention is that you can play the game without having to engage constantly with zombies and still be able to level up and progress. The xp yields on crafting, building, harvesting, mining, looting, trading, etc. are lower than they want them to be but until they fix it and release it you will probably have to hunt zombies more than you enjoy if you want to continue testing A17 experimental.
Roland
Moderator
They listen to their own plans and hopes and make small concessions to the community when it doesn't interfere with their bigger plans. You are correct that the community was mostly fine with the old skill/perk system. It was not changed due to community feedback. It was changed due to them wanting something they liked better.
8bitkronik
New member
You seem to be one of the few who's responses I see are genuine. Thank you for all your time and effort.
Nakz
New member
oh i'm not complaining believe me..
the only thing keeping me sane is that i trust the devs will do the best for the game and players in the end.
I don't mind any of the changes they are doing, no clue why most people here are complaining about forges and rwgs and what not (just roll with it)..
I understand they will workout all the numbers eventually and thats great.
but if i don't voice my concerns on this forum which is to literally discuss our thoughts then i'm afraid they might keep things as they are..
and seeing as you completely avoided any mention of POI and having a dungeon fest, I'm afraid it will always be like this instead of bringing some back. (not asking devs to remove their hardwork on new POI, just throw a few old ones our way).
If not, then i guess it's like you said.. we're forced to cope. Also i get that alot of players are coming off angry at you but don't assume everyone here will threaten to leave or quit on uninstall like those minority lol. So i thank you and the rest of the devs for your work. and especially you on your Restraint,if it was me i'd banned most of them.
Boidster
New member
I will pour one out for <the post that shall not be named>. It was epic, but I unnerstand why it and its children had to go.
8bitkronik, you really need to go read more of Gazz's, fataal's, and (recently) Kinyajuu's posts. They give us feedback to our feedback, offer insights about game mechanics, correct our misunderstandings...heck they even agree with some of our frustrations.
We all made the willful decision to opt-in to the unfinished, unstable, work-in-progress experimental version of this game. We should stop dumping crap on the heads of the developers.
8bitkronik, you really need to go read more of Gazz's, fataal's, and (recently) Kinyajuu's posts. They give us feedback to our feedback, offer insights about game mechanics, correct our misunderstandings...heck they even agree with some of our frustrations.
We all made the willful decision to opt-in to the unfinished, unstable, work-in-progress experimental version of this game. We should stop dumping crap on the heads of the developers.
Just tried a b233 game. Please tell me the biome quilt is just a fluke. I was so excited to see A17 drop. b208->b221->b231 all seemed to be ironing out wrinkles as they appeared. I may have missed a post, I admit I don't get on the forums often enough to keep up with all of them, but why the return to the patchwork terrain? b231 IMO just needed the stamina drain tweaked and the floating POIs hammered out. (Though the idea of buildings in such sad shape that they collapse when you walk on/near them is kind of cool). I'm hoping the next build is back to the North-South spread that A17 originally had me excited over.
Roland
Moderator
I do believe that they plan to have most structures in the world be level designed. They love designing them and they love playing them. Now, the good news is that more and more people will start designing prefabs of their own and if all of these other people prefer open interiors there should soon be a nice prefab pack you can add to your game to get a much better mix for what you like. And as we move towards development end and Steam Workshop is enabled it will be just as easy as using an ingame options menu to do so.
8bitkronik
New member
Can you point me in the right direction? I don't know if you can tell but I'm a little wet around the ears here.
Most of the time I just see two separate parties argue something with increasing frustration here lol
Hek Harris
New member
As for the new POIs which are in abundance to the detriment of the old ones, it seems obvious to me that this is the only way for the devs to have them tested. Once done, there will be a balance in the distribution.
By the way, the current random generation is again full of reliefs and it's great. Once again, we test everything, and it's a chance for me to participate in an experimental and playable version.
By the way, the current random generation is again full of reliefs and it's great. Once again, we test everything, and it's a chance for me to participate in an experimental and playable version.
Welp, thats bad news for me. Cant stand jump scares. 90%+ of my playtime is on unmodded, vanilla MP servers where I dont get to choose to add prefab packs. I know there is other options like running my own server but thats not option for me either. Oh well :/
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