PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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A17 introduces the first iteration of a new random world generation system. People complain because it's not perfect the first time.
The devs explain they are working on it throughout experimental.

People complain.

The largest complaint was the biome placement (which for the record I liked).

The devs state they will return it to its former glory throughout experimental.

People complain.

Each build that comes out adds new random world changes.

People complain.

A new iteration of random world begins to bring back its "former glory".

People complain.

...if it was up to me I would either murder the lot of you, or ban you from playing experimental.

Clearly there is a large section of people that do not understand what work-in-progress means.

There is a huge difference between constructive feedback during experimental and complaining doing experimental.

Constructive feedback consist of stating what is changed, and why it does not play as well, and accepting an answer that states these features will be improved.

Complaining consist of stating what is not finished yet, and complaining that it is not finished yet, and expecting new systems to work straight out of the box.
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Players are going to complain when the games changes swing pretty fast and far. Gronk nailed it with his statement a few posts back.

 
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Now it's too random man.
The cities themselves are not as good as in the previous builds.

So.. Mixed feelings.

Please don't hit me.
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Lol. I havent played yet but I believe you.

However, I believe bad city gen is a seperate issue from random biomes. Should be possible for random biomes AND nice cities. I dont think they need to randomize biomes at the expense of everything else.

 
And how does complaining about the complaining fit in your schematic? ^^
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It's a ROCK solid strategy. Rock solid.

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Says the guy who bemoans leveled loot and a hundred other things
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Those were constructive critiques as evidenced by my suggestions having gotten into the game. =)

(that's my story and I'm sticking with it)

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Players are going to complain when the games changes swing pretty fast and far. Gronk nailed it with his statement a few posts back.
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Yeh people like to have a voice. My goal is to be the loudest. =)

 
A17 introduces the first iteration of a new random world generation system. People complain because it's not perfect the first time.
The devs explain they are working on it throughout experimental.

People complain.

The largest complaint was the biome placement (which for the record I liked).

The devs state they will return it to its former glory throughout experimental.

People complain.

Each build that comes out adds new random world changes.

People complain.

A new iteration of random world begins to bring back its "former glory".

People complain.

...if it was up to me I would either murder the lot of you, or ban you from playing experimental.

Clearly there is a large section of people that do not understand what work-in-progress means.

There is a huge difference between constructive feedback during experimental and complaining doing experimental.

Constructive feedback consist of stating what is changed, and why it does not play as well, and accepting an answer that states these features will be improved.

Complaining consist of stating what is not finished yet, and complaining that it is not finished yet, and expecting new systems to work straight out of the box.
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Clearly you do not grasp what "feed back" is! How people choose to express their passions about 7day changes will always have someone criticizing their methods - You call is complaining, i call is "feed back" which is what we are all supposed to do.

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It's not random now. If it was truly random the vast majority of seeds would have biomes that were all 1 or 2 blocks each arranged in a "shotgun" pattern.
If you want to see what truly random would look like, buy 6 different colored bags of play sand. Put it all in a cement mixer and let it run for a few hours. Grab a bucket full of the mix and throw it on a flat piece of cardboard. The result would be truly random biome distribution.
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The seed thats being generated for our server is exactly as you just described - so yes, some are giving us VERY random.

 
A17 introduces the first iteration of a new random world generation system. People complain because it's not perfect the first time.
The devs explain they are working on it throughout experimental.

People complain.

The largest complaint was the biome placement (which for the record I liked).

The devs state they will return it to its former glory throughout experimental.

People complain.

Each build that comes out adds new random world changes.

People complain.

A new iteration of random world begins to bring back its "former glory".

People complain.

...if it was up to me I would either murder the lot of you, or ban you from playing experimental.

Clearly there is a large section of people that do not understand what work-in-progress means.

There is a huge difference between constructive feedback during experimental and complaining doing experimental.

Constructive feedback consist of stating what is changed, and why it does not play as well, and accepting an answer that states these features will be improved.

Complaining consist of stating what is not finished yet, and complaining that it is not finished yet, and expecting new systems to work straight out of the box.
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The problem also mirrors a real world issue, being that, those with the most extreme opinions, tend to have the loudest voices.

Enabling a public forum for feedback will inevitably invite some people to respond constructively, some people to respond destructively, and some people to respond to the responses.

The vast majority of people will invariably not comment at all however, which is why it is important for as many differing opinions to be shared, to hopefully somewhat mirror the consensus of the masses, rather than just hear the voices of the few.

Unfortunately, in an anonymous setting such as an internet forum, this means far too many people will air their views with less decorum than they otherwise would in a face-to-face situation, and with the exception of 'murdering them all, or banning them from participating' there is limited scope in reducing such behaviours.

 
Nothing but strawman arguments.

He never said he wants a random mix of blocks, its easy to argue against that.

He said that having a fixed distribution of bioms on every map is not what he considers random generated and i totaly agree with that.

I more and more get the impression that a lot of you only post for the sake of defending the holy devs, why else would you use rhetorical tricks like that against people with legit points of criticism?

 
Clearly you do not grasp what "feed back" is! How people choose to express their passions about 7day changes will always have someone criticizing their methods - You call is complaining, i call is "feed back" which is what we are all supposed to do.
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The seed thats being generated for our server is exactly as you just described - so yes, some are giving us VERY random.
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Feedback, is, again, providing discussion, however it moves over to complaining the second it starts criticizing unfinished features.

Let's compare.

Level gating is very artificial and limits a players choices based on an arbitrary goal, and the end result is playing linearly. This is feedback, based on a system that's in place.

Random World doesn't work well yet. This is complaining, based on a system that isn't in place yet.

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Unfortunately, in an anonymous setting such as an internet forum, this means far too many people will air their views with less decorum than they otherwise would in a face-to-face situation, and with the exception of 'murdering them all, or banning them from participating' there is limited scope in reducing such behaviours.
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I'm a strong proponent of murder, it's true, but only for people I don't like. =)

 
Clearly you do not grasp what "feed back" is! How people choose to express their passions about 7day changes will always have someone criticizing their methods - You call is complaining, i call is "feed back" which is what we are all supposed to do.
- - - Updated - - -

The seed thats being generated for our server is exactly as you just described - so yes, some are giving us VERY random.
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I would like to see that seed because I'm pretty sure that what I'm describing isn't possible with their current algorithm. I literally mean 1-2 blocks(as in one meter) of each biome spread out evenly on the map. I've seen them with Snow biomes peppered throughout the desert biomes but that is still a lot less random than what I was describing.

And mentioning desert and snow, are they somehow linked in the new algorithm? I haven't found a seed yet that had snow that wasn't either surrounded by desert or bordered it. I haven't tried that many seeds so it could have just been luck of the draw but it was odd enough to catch my eye almost immediately.

 
Procedurally Modeled Terrain?
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The masses don't know what those words mean. Didn't you say something about hiding the complexity?

Nothing but strawman arguments...I more and more get the impression that a lot of you only post for the sake of defending the holy devs, why else would you use rhetorical tricks like that against people with legit points of criticism?
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For me, it's not so much "defending the holy devs" as "exposing the rhetorical tricks" that the complainers use to make their position more worthy. You provided a great example: Other people are using strawman arguments, but certainly not you and certainly not in the very same post in which you accuse them of such.

 
Nothing but strawman arguments.He never said he wants a random mix of blocks, its easy to argue against that.

He said that having a fixed distribution of bioms on every map is not what he considers random generated and i totaly agree with that.

I more and more get the impression that a lot of you only post for the sake of defending the holy devs, why else would you use rhetorical tricks like that against people with legit points of criticism?
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You and I, I think, have vastly different opinions on what constitutes "defending the holy devs".

I liked the biome placement, because biome randomization was dumb and I didn't consider its loss as meaning "random world is no longer random", especially since you still had random: Road placement, poi placement, water placement, terrain, trees/rocks/decor/etc... making biome placement more or less static was a brilliant move, because it got rid of sweltering in the heat one second, to freezing to death in another, just because you crossed a path.

I suppose they could include random object height as well, so that there are floating trees, rocks, hell, mountains, to make it even MORE random, but that would also be silly.

For the vast majority of us, it's cold in the north and hot in the south.

 
Nothing but strawman arguments.He never said he wants a random mix of blocks, its easy to argue against that.

He said that having a fixed distribution of bioms on every map is not what he considers random generated and i totaly agree with that.

I more and more get the impression that a lot of you only post for the sake of defending the holy devs, why else would you use rhetorical tricks like that against people with legit points of criticism?
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I'm one of the biggest proponents of the linear distribution of major biomes and so far today I've pretty much accused the devs of having a bipolar disorder and ADHD. I'm not really feeling that I'm blindly worshiping them.

 
And mentioning desert and snow, are they somehow linked in the new algorithm? I haven't found a seed yet that had snow that wasn't either surrounded by desert or bordered it. I haven't tried that many seeds so it could have just been luck of the draw but it was odd enough to catch my eye almost immediately.
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I've noticed this as well, but I think it might just be a product of their abundance and the problem of not having much else to border (the four-color problem that Gronk pointed out some pages ago).

 
You and I, I think, have vastly different opinions on what constitutes "defending the holy devs".
I liked the biome placement, because biome randomization was dumb and I didn't consider its loss as meaning "random world is no longer random", especially since you still had random: Road placement, poi placement, water placement, terrain, trees/rocks/decor/etc... making biome placement more or less static was a brilliant move, because it got rid of sweltering in the heat one second, to freezing to death in another, just because you crossed a path.

I suppose they could include random object height as well, so that there are floating trees, rocks, hell, mountains, to make it even MORE random, but that would also be silly.

For the vast majority of us, it's cold in the north and hot in the south.
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You can like it as much as you want, it is not random generated when its pre fixed and thats all that was said

 
I'm a strong proponent of murder, it's true, but only for people I don't like. =)
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My issue is that it has been so long since I came across a person that I liked, that if I prescribed to this attitude, I would treat real life the way I treat 7 Days to Die.

Hmm, now that I think of it, it might be time to head to the hardware store and pick up a good fireaxe.

 
I'm one of the biggest proponents of the linear distribution of major biomes and so far today I've pretty much accused the devs of having a bipolar disorder and ADHD. I'm not really feeling that I'm blindly worshiping them.
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Yeh I've called them retards, lazy and have been not exactly supportive of some of their business decisions, and somehow I get lumped into that group too, when I agree with something they've done.

Okay Gronk, so it's me and you... team "static biome placement"... we'll fight the world!

(or, 3 or 4 of its most vocal opponents)

 
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