PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[The Gronk]

Im asking everyone to give an example that shows im wrong, as long as nobody can provide that i consider what i say as right.

You have a team of two people, person A does the crafting while person B does the shooting and looting. There's no need for person B to spend any points in forge and it would be advisable that they spend those points on combat and scavenging skills.

With a few points in scavenging you can probably find something better than the crafter could create by looting a "working stiff" shop.

 

[Hek Harris]

Can anyone of you just give me a example of 7 perks that he considers better than rushing the forge and start day 2 with a full set of iron gear?Just one single example for a day 1 scenario that puts me further ahead then rushing a forge and grinding iron. How could i possible have a better start into day 2?

Iron tools are useless for me. My first week is devoted solely to exploration, looting and discovering the map. And you know what, after a week, I have iron tools because I found them. I have a lot of iron bars by dismantling workbenches and labs.

Having a forge is the goal of base builders who want to start mining right away. And for what I know of their way of playing, it's a good thing that they can have it as easily as possible. Without this, the forum would be the Wailing Wall. Oh, wait ...

 

[khzmusik]

New POI ? Bad omen ?

https://imgur.com/lNGslgv

Interesting - that was the end base in Neebs Gaming 7D2D series, I hadn't seen it in-game so assumed it was something custom they built.

(around 3:30 or so)

 

[JamsCB]

Well, haven't had a chance to play the new build yet, but I'm curious to try a game each way: day one forge with quality 3 iron tools and weapons (assuming I don't find one nearby) vs building a useful character first. I suspect for my typical solo dead is dead cautious play style, building a useful character will be more important, but I'll have to see.

 

[Sullen Skulls]

Im asking everyone to give an example that shows im wrong, as long as nobody can provide that i consider what i say as right.

Several choices personally:- (not necessarily in order, but first 7 points used could be)

(1) Boom! Headshot, Lucky Looter, Sexy Rexy, Pack Mule, Healing, Cardio, Chef

- if no cook pot found, swap chef for metabolism to get more out of what food/drink you are finding

- wanna play a bit more cautious, swap cardio for hidden strike, and crouch shoot for first attack

(2) Perception, Perception, Lucky Looter, Lucky Looter, Pack Mule, Better Barter, Motherlode

- why build a forge when you can get better loot, and sell it for more, to buy better loot

- if really unlucky enough not to get iron pick and fireaxe from first days looting, swap motherlode out for hidden strike, and use first night to kill rather than mine

Now don't get me wrong, being able to forge iron before day 7 horde makes a huge difference, and getting the ability to build forges yourself rather than finding them is definitely important, but to claim that it is the strongest way to spend your first 7 perk points seems to me to actually be a weaker strategy than many other choices.

 

[Gnomaana]

Roland is one of my favourite ass-hats. And I have plenty of those to choose from
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What happened to your avatar man? I liked it!

I never noticed it was gone. Lol I was poking around on my profile the other day and must've disabled it. I read the forum from my phone most of the time lately and never noticed.

Edit: Ah man!!! I reinstalled this machine a couple weeks ago and can't find that avatar pic now. I'll have to see if I saved it when I backed up before the reinstall.

 

[The Gronk]

<snipped for space>

Although I agree with you that the forge is the early goal for base builders I also agree with DaVegaNL that we're skipping an entire technological epoch.

At times like this I ask what I'd actually do in this situation.

Would I immediately build a forge with the idea of churning out tools? No.

Would I tie a knapped piece of rock to a stick in an attempt to cut down a tree? No.

Without a real axe to chop down a tree I'd improvise. An axe is pretty simple to fashion from a chunk of metal of the appropriate shape so I'd probably rip something apart to find one, sharpen the edge, and wrap something around the handle. Not perfect but it should work better than a frikkin' rock

I'm honestly on the fence on this one. We're skipping the stone age but then do we really need it? Isn't this thinking just a hangover from the minecraft mindset? Perhaps leave a neolithic zombie apocalypse to the modders?

 

[Gareee]

A17 Zombie Krampus confirmed.

I would LOVE this!

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what about those christmas add on, will they be removed in stable?

Stable is weeks away, and yes.

Interesting armchair quarterbacking. I think we need to actually play to day 29 or so to really get a feel for how things play out. We just hot day 28 on the last version last night, and had a blast. The wife was discovering the benefits of later game unlocked recipes, and we had just unlocked the cement mixers.

I only saw a mention from tin about editing rwg to get skyscrapers.. are they still not in this exp build?

 

[Maynard69]

It is not an argument that we, who dont like the change, dont have to play that way. Because it is very clearly the best possible way to progress in the game to start on day 2 with a full set of iron gear. You can explore, build and level way faster and saver afterwards and will probably just catch up in skillpoints. Anyway, there are no 7 perks in the game that match the value the forge gives you especialy since you most likely want it anyway sooner or later. There is absolutely no reason to not get it immediatly and increase stamina reg, backpack etc with the points you get afterwards.
Can anyone of you just give me a example of 7 perks that he considers better than rushing the forge and start day 2 with a full set of iron gear?

Just one single example for a day 1 scenario that puts me further ahead then rushing a forge and grinding iron. How could i possible have a better start into day 2?

I go for lvl3 agility and lvl2 Rule 1, Then I am not burdened by stamina at all. I can run off bear/wolf aggro and not die. Swing my stone axe longer for the meager materials that I need starting out. I can run easily to the trader to finish my quests. I dont have to worry about getting caught out at night as much (If I grow a pair early) Then I do 1 lvl of master chef (since charred meat is crap comapred to bacon and eggs and eggs are -1 inventory slot) Then I go for pack mule. Forge is not even on my mind until I find a place to settle anyway (and have enough mats to make a forge)

One thing is certain, I dont want to spend my first day digging and breaking rocks when I need a pot, food, and xp from kills. Forge is the last thing on my mind day 1.

Iron Armor is junk and not worth putting on unless you have a stamina pool and perks to back it up. Much easier on you to not get hit early.

 

[monkeyboy275]

I think having extra stamina regen while sprinting, using less stamina on melee and mining, having more inventory space, doing 50% more headshot damage and cooking bacon and eggs is a better use of points than having iron tools, you can find easily and iron armor, that drains stamina and makes you slower.
Good enough for you?

These are the skills i would also consider among the most important so lets go threw it.

1 point in cardio is nice but no gamechanger and pack mule is indeed very important but can wait till one level after the forge

sexrex with a stone axe and club against no perk and iron tools/weapons

50% headshot against iron arrows

too cook you need a cooking pot witch you can find on day one but dont nesserceiry do, you can forge one tho

And maybe you find some tools on your first day but the point is you have to find them first one by one. With a forge you get everything 100% sure with 0 risk.

And it makes a huge difference if you have stoneaxe and club or pickaxe and axe to farm, fight and destroy things. You do everything much faster with iron tools.

I also like to get my stuff by looting and questing. And thats why i prefer it the way it was on the last patch and dislike the change. It was fun that you had to loot and quest in order to get good equipment. This way everything you found felt more valuable and you had a motivation to go out and get in dangerous places.

Why should i loot dangerous places with poor equip to get better one when i can also just craft it for free and then go loot with better equip? Dont know if thats just me but i would feel stupid to search for stuff that i could also just craft. It doesnt make sense to me in the slightest even if you say i dont have to play it like that if i dont like it.

 

[Tin]

Although I agree with you that the forge is the early goal for base builders I also agree with DaVegaNL that we're skipping an entire technological epoch.
At times like this I ask what I'd actually do in this situation.

Would I immediately build a forge with the idea of churning out tools? No.

Would I tie a knapped piece of rock to a stick in an attempt to cut down a tree? No.

Without a real axe to chop down a tree I'd improvise. An axe is pretty simple to fashion from a chunk of metal of the appropriate shape so I'd probably rip something apart to find one, sharpen the edge, and wrap something around the handle. Not perfect but it should work better than a frikkin' rock

I'm honestly on the fence on this one. We're skipping the stone age but then do we really need it? Isn't this thinking just a hangover from the minecraft mindset? Perhaps leave a neolithic zombie apocalypse to the modders?

I don't think this game really lends itself on 'needing' a primitive stage. If we were drop in the middle of nowhere, and it took us a weeks in-game just to reach any semblance of civilization, then I think needing a primitive stage would be a necessity.

Since we can always find a town within a day or 2, or a trader, or a prefab with a forge, it's just a nice thing to have, but isn't really needed.

 

[Kage848]

These are the skills i would also consider among the most important so lets go threw it.1 point in cardio is nice but no gamechanger and pack mule is indeed very important but can wait till one level after the forge

sexrex with a stone axe and club against no perk and iron tools/weapons

50% headshot against iron arrors

too cook you need a cooking pot witch you can find on day one but dont nesserceiry do, you can forge one tho

And maybe you find some tools on your first day but the point is you have to find them first one by one. With a forge you get everything 100% sure with 0 risk.

And it makes a huge difference if you have stoneaxe and club or pickaxe and axe to farm, fight and destroy things. You do everything much faster with iron tools.

I also like to get my stuff by looting and questing. And thats why i prefer it the way it was on the last patch and dislike the change. It was fun that you had to loot and quest in order to get good equipment. This way everything you found felt more valuable and you had a motivation to go out and get in dangerous places.

Why should i loot dangerous places with poor equip to get better one when i can also just craft it for free and then go loot with better equip? Dont know if thats just me but it i would feel stupid to search for stuff that i could also just craft. It doesnt make sense to me in the slightest even if you say i dont have to play it like that if i dont like it.

Hey, I'm not saying your playstyle is wrong. I think it has merits. I'm just trying to open your eyes to the fact others play differently, and I would argue more efficiently. You can disagree, and I respect that. I just think you need to realize your way may not be the one and only way, or even the best way. Just a difference of playstyle. We get a whole hell of a lot out of our 7 perks points you dont because we didnt spec forge right away.

 

[lord_ahriman]

All I have to say: forge in B231 A17 it's the new "underground base A16.4". You absolutely can get forge day 1, but that's your option: you don't need to spend all your initial skill points to get a forge . You don't like it, play as B221. Seriously, some people can't understand that and only see his way.

 

[monkeyboy275]

To sum it up, imo all of these are nice things to have, but in the end only raised stats that can wait and no gamechanger like the forge.

 

[Hek Harris]

Without a real axe to chop down a tree I'd improvise. An axe is pretty simple to fashion from a chunk of metal of the appropriate shape so I'd probably rip something apart to find one, sharpen the edge, and wrap something around the handle. Not perfect but it should work better than a frikkin' rock

I'm honestly on the fence on this one. We're skipping the stone age but then do we really need it? Isn't this thinking just a hangover from the minecraft mindset? Perhaps leave a neolithic zombie apocalypse to the modders?

The thing is iron tools can be found, can be received as a quest reward or can be bought. Stone age is definitely more a concept than the reality - I mean the in game reality

IMHO, progression should be slowered by other means :

- wounds, infections or other diseases should be more common, to force us to be more careful and hesitant before each expedition. Only armors would reduce the likelihood of being injured.

- ressources like gas, nitrate, coal, lead should be more localized (ancien mines, quarries, derricks, all well guarded by frequent zombies spawns)

- without the good skills, farming should be very uncertain: animals that eat plants, diseases, growth failures ...

- Being poisoned by food should be more frequent. It's a post-apocalyptic world : everything is contamined.

- merchants should be more specialized (gunsmiths, farmers, doctors ...) and prices much better balanced. We become too fast and too easily rich. Since there are so many weapons involved, they should not buy them. Only items created by the player and of good quality should be resold.

Prudence and anticipation should be important points for a balanced progression. To own or not a forge seems to be a skewed way to slow down this progression.

Sorry for my English, I'm making progress every day but would be optimal only in 2032.

 

[Guppycur]

"Oh noes! The game plays differently than it did before! Rather than play it to accurately weigh the pros and cons I'ma hop on the forum to say it sucks!"

...I just hope that now that the lame, stupid level gates are gone, that the remaining balancing focuses on making the game more challenging elsewhere rather than just "well that didn't work, put the gates back".

Game can run faster now, in some areas, so make those areas harder not gated by level again.

Forge for example, is useless without recipes that exceed what we can build on the fly ... Make those more challenging. More mats, require books or some other attribute that you did NOT just dump your points into to get the forge... Anything is better than level gates.

 

[wolffblood]

Yeah, I'll probably just go the normal healing/chef/pack mule. Then get ranged headshot/sneak crit for POI. 1 in int just to get quality 2 items. And slow metabolism. That's typically my first 7 points. Can find most iron stuff by day 7 as is. Don't need iron spikes for first BM. Just a small base with lots of wood spikes around it. Usually don't need iron stuff till after first BM for me. Though my friend wants it asap, so I know he'll probably rush forge and all because he loves building. So just means earlier iron for me in that instance. Scavenge by day, harvest for him by night. He just builds all day and night with some harvesting in between.

--edit--

Though because of how little I play, I'll probably make it 2 points per level just so I can get a feel for all that due to having to wipe saves. Typically means I play maybe 10 days before the next build comes out. Many skills I haven't even got to put 1 point in yet to see if it's something I'd rather get over something else. Once it goes stable and no more restarts, then I'll keep it at the 1 per level.

 

[Roland]

Im asking everyone to give an example that shows im wrong, as long as nobody can provide that i consider what i say as right.

You are only right if efficiency is your only consideration. But roleplaying is another and plenty of people will want to try multiple replays by specializing in each attribute. I did this before the gates were in place (and incidentally) before the intellect attribute was hooked up. Playing the game by going all strength vs all agility vs all perception etc. makes for very different characters and very different games. Some people play to experience different character builds and not simply to find the one most efficient path and then claim to be forced to play that one way.

You say that choosing not to rush the forge is a non argument but for those who aren’t locked into an efficiency mindset there are TONS of choices to play as different characters available and choosing to play one way vs another is THE argument.

Also this isn’t the final draft either. It would take them five minutes to impose a level 10 or level 20 gate on just the forge if necessary. They’ll be assessing.

 

[meganoth]

Why on earth isn't a power attack used as a way of clearing blocks quickly without gaining many resources? I honestly thought that was where they were going with this. Make it really loud to add some balance.

Great idea.

How are folks going about mining ore veins?

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With changes to 'glue' it doesn't seem very workable to mine upwards? So need to go top down. Creating kind of a big ole soup bowl with you as the tasty morsel at the bottom...

...

Ye 'ol 'build a cheap wood roof' won't do much, heck, bet you can't climb a ladder 20 blocks before they'd break through. And I -really- don't want to spend ~2000 concrete to build a 3k hp 16x16x3-high wall that really won't do all that much against a wandering horde

Any ideas would be really appreciated

I assume you are asking how to make a safe mine starting at ground level?

I would surround the mine shaft with an outer row of barbed wire and inner row of spiked traps. Wires and traps will slow them down and make noise so you notice them.

The ladder up would go about 3 or 4 blocks higher than ground level on a short platform that allows you to jump over the spikes and any zombies there. It would be shaped like spring-board in a public swimming pool. It must be surrounded by blocks and some more barbed wire so the ladder is always safe.

At a point vis-a-vis the up ladder I would make a ladder to make sure zombies want to take that ladder down and leave the other ladder free for you to go up. This ladder can have a few more rings of barbed wire and spikes on ground level because it should be very desirable for the Z's anyway and it doesn't hurt to slow them down some more.

 

[The Gronk]

I don't think this game really lends itself on 'needing' a primitive stage. If we were drop in the middle of nowhere, and it took us a weeks in-game just to reach any semblance of civilization, then I think needing a primitive stage would be a necessity. Since we can always find a town within a day or 2, or a trader, or a prefab with a forge, it's just a nice thing to have, but isn't really needed.

Now you've just convinced me that although a neolithic stage isn't necessarily something every player has to go through it's useful to keep in as a backup system just in case you _do_ find yourself spawned in the middle of nowhere in just your scivvies. In _that_ scenario I'll be tying a rock to a stick. Hopefully RWG will again reach sizes where you can lose yourself in the countryside.