PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Crater Creator]

Problem is, if the ONLY threat we have is zombies and their ability to find you and reach you anywhere in the game, then that makes what was once a multi dimensional game into a one dimensional game, and that's a detriment to all, even if a select few can't understand that.
Pimps can always code zombies that always find and reach you, teleport to you, dig, fly, whatever, OR, they could include other threats that would add more depth and require varying styles of challenging gameplay, and I personally choose the latter (that's the 2nd one, to the reading challenged).

Digging zombies are the path of least resistance and are certainly the obvious solution to a particularly narrow minded way of thinking about zombie games, but I (and others) had high hopes THIS game would live up to its potential and be a true survival game, not JUST a zombie survival game.

Luckily, they're including the modability to do that, and for that, I am grateful.

Thing is, it is a zombie game. This is more than a philosophical question of identity. How many lines of code are in support of making gameplay versus zombies functional and fun? It affects virtually every system - not just AI, but weapons, traps, heat, stealth, vehicles, skills & perks... I don’t see using zombies as an underground threat as unimaginative. I see it as leveraging the most developed element of the game, instead of tacking on something less connected, less integrated with other systems.

You yawn, but as someone pointed out, many of the alternatives proposed wouldn’t be as actively, recurrently engaging as zombies. They’d be one-time obstacles you run into while first digging, or things requiring maintenance gameplay as exciting as ‘top off your generator.’

I think we’re in agreement that something is better than nothing. But compared to zombies, the alternatives to me are like fishing or trains. They’re suggested often and yeah, I guess they could be cool, but at the same time they’d feel like the game is losing focus.

 

[wildaxeman1]

By your definition anything is gaming them.. so if we go by that definition.. I guess I rather enjoy gaming them.. I just don't enjoy using unintended ways around the AI like the current stilt base. I plan to do the same underground, gaming, but not by some method that some would argue is an exploit.

there is no such thing as exploit. any base is matter of playstyle and still requires work. even 3 deep hole covered with frame. (sitting there is not profitable anyway) good gaming involves good thinking and using all ingame options. that includes underground and stilt bases.

 

[Guppycur]

Thing is, it is a zombie game. This is more than a philosophical question of identity. How many lines of code are in support of making gameplay versus zombies functional and fun? It affects virtually every system - not just AI, but weapons, traps, heat, stealth, vehicles, skills & perks... I don’t see using zombies as an underground threat as unimaginative. I see it as leveraging the most developed element of the game, instead of tacking on something less connected, less integrated with other systems.
You yawn, but as someone pointed out, many of the alternatives proposed wouldn’t be as actively, recurrently engaging as zombies. They’d be one-time obstacles you run into while first digging, or things requiring maintenance gameplay as exciting as ‘top off your generator.’

I think we’re in agreement that something is better than nothing. But compared to zombies, the alternatives to me are like fishing or trains. They’re suggested often and yeah, I guess they could be cool, but at the same time they’d feel like the game is losing focus.

I guess I remember a time when imaginations were running wild and the possibilities were endless...

It honestly sounds like some of you have given up. Rather, given into the "just get it released" mentality.

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there is no such thing as exploit. any base is matter of playstyle and still requires work. even 3 deep hole covered with frame. (sitting there is not profitable anyway) good gaming involves good thinking and using all ingame options. that includes underground and stilt bases.

This.

 

[khzmusik]

There has already been a lot of discussion on how to make bunkering a fuller more realistic experience. The conclusion from most people is that it is too easy to live underground, and that it needs to be made more challenging.

A while back, some kind of "oxygen" system was proposed, such that living underground would give you a debuff where you would not get enough oxygen to breathe (I imagine it would be some kind of stamina degradation, with loss of health in extreme cases).

The proposed solution required calculating "paths to air" that ended up being far too computationally expensive to be practical. But, there is another, simpler way to do it: base it on altitude. Altitude is static and doesn't need pathfinding calculations, so it shouldn't be too taxing.

This might be possible to mod via XML, except I don't think that altitude is available to XML. If it is, though, it should be a fairly easy thing to mod in.

That would, at least, discourage building your bases on bedrock (like I tend to do eventually). Combined with the fact that zombies dig now, and bunkering would be a lot less appealing.

 

[SnowDog1942]

This.

is wrong

 

[Katitof]

there is no such thing as exploit. any base is matter of playstyle and still requires work. even 3 deep hole covered with frame. (sitting there is not profitable anyway) good gaming involves good thinking and using all ingame options. that includes underground and stilt bases.

You are not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere.

If game mechanics allow you to bypass that principle, which was establishes already in A1, that's the dictionary definition of exploiting.

You exploit game mechanics to allow yourself something that isn't supposed to be achieved.

That's the precise reason why zombies are improved and will dig down to your sorry, hiding arse now all the way to bedrock.

Good survival gaming involve risk vs reward factor.

If there is 100% certainty of reward with absolutely no risk involved, then mechanic is flawed at best, utterly broken at worst.

In this particular case, zombi AI was easily exploitable to hide underground.

Soon no more.

 

[SnowDog1942]

You are not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere.
If game mechanics allow you to bypass that principle, which was establishes already in A1, that's the dictionary definition of exploiting.

You exploit game mechanics to allow yourself something that isn't supposed to be achieved.

That's the precise reason why zombies are improved and will dig down to your sorry, hiding arse now all the way to bedrock.

Good survival gaming involve risk vs reward factor.

If there is 100% certainty of reward with absolutely no risk involved, then mechanic is flawed at best, utterly broken at worst.

In this particular case, zombi AI was easily exploitable to hide underground.

Soon no more.

This.

 

[Gamida]

The way I see it the only percents that matter are 0 and 100. They are the absolutes. The others mean something could go either way even if it will be skewed in one direction or the other.

 

[trielkee]

Anyone who says hiding five blocks underground or on a stilt base on horde night in A16 (with the current zombie AI) is not an exploit is lying to themselves.

 

[SnowDog1942]

Anyone who says hiding five blocks underground or on a stilt base on horde night in A16 (with the current zombie AI) is not an exploit is lying to themselves.

This

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Now is there any plan, when A17 will be released, or at least a public dev-branch will be available?

Is there any chance, that it will be released before x-mas? Because we have a LAN-Party between x-mas and new year and we really would like to play A17 there.

Last "public" announcement i read was in august. Silence since then or where can i get the missing parts?

The Dev-Thread here is accidentially full of nonsense discussion which makes me unable to get reasonable information about the state.

 

[XCOUNTRY]

So what is the definition of 100% safe? Wouldn't hiding on the surface behind a 4 block thick wall of polished steel with blade traps and shotgun turrets not be the same thing? I've stood on a 8x8x8 reinforced concrete block with two rows of spikes around the perimeter and not had to do anything for several horde nights without repairing. I've also done cage pit traps to bed rock and barely kept up. Point: Eventually, nothing can harm you in this game and it used to not take very long to get to that point. I look forward to the new digger and AI challenge, but humans are just too darn good at figuring out how not to lose. Eventually we'll all figure it out.

 

[Quantum Blue]

Snip...
I think we’re in agreement that something is better than nothing. But compared to zombies, the alternatives to me are like fishing or trains. They’re suggested often and yeah, I guess they could be cool, but at the same time they’d feel like the game is losing focus.

How dare you! So, we can have zombies and gyocopters, but not zombies and trains?

1. Cuz trains don't exist and you would never try to use them or fight zombies on them, or...

2. I guess you have never seen "Train to Busan" and are not aware it was JUST announced a remake is in the works?

All humor my friend. When I use the 'when can we get trains' lines, it's massively rhetorical (I do have an understanding of what kind of herculean effort it would be, even if it was being considered), and used as MY way to participate by asking questions on this forum. It's the only thing I have ever asked for, and it's only fair as I have read all posts since A14 (including mod posts), and have seen how many times some of you long timers have to answer the same questions many times.

And, Cup of Tea, I'm with you. I don't want to fight zombies all the time, but I do enjoy the 'pressure' of something going to happen at some time, - just not all the time, so I can get some other types of things done. (7 days hordes have never 'bothered' me, but I don't enjoy wandering hordes 3x a day on 3 consecutive days. Especially in the first couple of weeks.

 

[Quantum Blue]

Been lurking again for a while and feel the need:

Madmole: Thanks an awful lot for the vids. I always appreciate the effort you put in for those.

Madmole, Gazz, Faatal, and Roland: Have always valued your responses in the forum. Whether they are super professional (when I probably would not have been) or even snarky. It does feel good when people 'in the know' add something to the conversations.

TFP: I have previously stated that 7D2D was up there with Civ, MOO, MOM, and a few others. Not any more. I Have 4000+ hours in. And am super eagerly awaiting A17. I know THIS is the best NOT-EVEN GOLD yet, game I have ever tested/played.

MASSIVE KUDOS.

Now, get back to work...

 

[Gamida]

I wish I could program/mod. I would like to have it so the danger was greater the closer you are to a city. I mean if I make a base in the middle of nowhere then there shouldn't be that big of a threat, even on horde night. But. If I want to get a specific part for something or anything at all really guess what....I have to go to the city where there is the greatest chance of finding it. Chance of finding a hammer in city, great. Finding a hammer 10 km in a forest, not so much. This way if you want some peace and quiet (aka safety) then go to the wilds, but be prepared to not have enough of anything. Want to be able to find all the good stuff you will need then build in/near a major town/city, but be prepared to have to fight tooth and nail for everything and to be safe.

 

[Guppycur]

Anyone who says hiding five blocks underground or on a stilt base on horde night in A16 (with the current zombie AI) is not an exploit is lying to themselves.

"Making best use of and derive benefit from" applies to using a mouse much less the game mechanics developed by the developers.

...now, obviously, tfp not only didn't want underground safety, they wanted zombies to be the underground threat... No one is arguing that.

I'm saying there are more creative ways to "put the pressure on" that isn't as linear as simply fighting zombies. All. Of. The. Time.

It gets old.

 

[DUST2DEATH]

https://twitter.com/joelhuenink/status/1054122995512266752

 

[wildaxeman1]

You are not supposed to be 100% safe anywhere.
If game mechanics allow you to bypass that principle, which was establishes already in A1, that's the dictionary definition of exploiting.

You exploit game mechanics to allow yourself something that isn't supposed to be achieved.

That's the precise reason why zombies are improved and will dig down to your sorry, hiding arse now all the way to bedrock.

Good survival gaming involve risk vs reward factor.

If there is 100% certainty of reward with absolutely no risk involved, then mechanic is flawed at best, utterly broken at worst.

In this particular case, zombi AI was easily exploitable to hide underground.

Soon no more.

did i say 100% safe??? no!!

being safe is relative.you need to work to achive that. being 100% safe in a16.4 meant, you need to dig 130 blocks from surface, to be undetected on hordnight. sure, you could be relatively safe in hole, but there wa still possibility to get attacked. if z-s stack and crawler is on bottom or there is lower place closeby. also after horde you need to fight off z-s, when you coming out.

any safe option needs work, that is, what the game is about. survive safest possible way. or take risks. up to every players wish.

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This.

is not wrong, just matter of opinion

 

[Guppycur]

Opinions that don't reflect the assumptions based the crumbs of information that drop off the licked boots of the pimps are invalid, didn't you know? =)

 

[wildaxeman1]

I would like to have it so the danger was greater the closer you are to a city

i belive, it is that way in a17

according to crumbs i picked (licked) :rapture: