PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17
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Gazz
Fun Pimps Staff
1. Making the game an asia-MMO grindfest is not on the feature list and I won't even look if that is still supported in code.
2. Anything that has a trigger can count up a variable and you can define something like "landing after a jump while holding raw meat and having more than 73% stamina and a sprained ankle" as your skill gain event that eventually unlocks whatever you want either automatically or by making a perk level available for purchase.
Gazz
Fun Pimps Staff
Using modified individual options has gotten a lot easier.I smell some #Gate forming so I'll just say: Options.TFP can have an extensive list of options and group them to 3 or 4 presets: Easy, Normal, Hard and... "Die you toilet looting scum!"
Also allow the player to modified individual options, so, no one could possibly complain, right?
A single line can now increase the damage you do to zombies with every weapon... or only with melee weapons... where previously you had to mod every individual weapon and do that all over again with every game update.
The issue people forget is the amount of point that are available vs the major nerving that has going on.
Currently you need close to 20 points simply to get several abilities you had before in A16-- back. Carry capacity level 2, head shots level 3, ... As we have seen with Joel in the Strength video, he was hitting even a soft zombie a dozen times because the lack of head shot damage. Anybody who has played 7D2D knows how much of a damage sponge zombie are without headshot.
So that means you are already investing 9 points simply in headshot perks when you start the game! Let alone the equivalent in pummel pet etc that people used to take.
So they replaced spam crafting ( what was easy to fix ) now with perk spamming because people will simply be forced to try and perk up as much as possible to even have a viable playing character that does not need to avoid every Z that even sneezes at the player. We also have seen how much more Zombies get hits in ( backstep reduced ) on the player.
A quick calculation shows that if we average 50 points over 7 days with 3 hours ( Joel his stats ). That means you do 2.3 points per hour. Lets assume you do 4 points at the start and you have a diminishing return on every hour after that. ( 4, 3.9, 3.8, ... ). After this ... You just spend 5 to 7 hours simply perk spamming to get your character to a level it was before in A16. Painful ...
People also overlook the hit you get when you die. It reduces the SPECIAL level by one. So your character can be reduced in damage output, stamina, run speed, carry capacity, head shot damage etc ... Because everything now is tied into these perks. Making dead extreme punishing, especially if you end up spawning outside a base or when your character is new. Naked with everything reduced, potentially even head shots.
I can work around that but you try telling that to new players, who never played 7D2D like the veterans. I feel a lot of people will give up in frustration. Complex crafting etc people can deal with but if one thing triggers people, is dying and feeling like a cripple. The old system was less punishing on this part.
It does not take balancing after release when the flaws in the system are even now visible. Frustration from lack of damage, potential heavy punishment ( even more impact on beginning characters ), AI more aggressive, Zombies able to put a lot of hits, step-over headshot is weakened ( head shot perk + Zombie do not lie down anymore + Zombie can attack when on the floor), Lack of Stun on Zombies.
Yes, the game will be harder for veterans but for new players it will be hell on earth and i see people easily quieting.
The Gronk
Colon Pounder
Glide is probably a bit of a gentle word for the process of landing a gyrocopter without forward thrust.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/05/helicopters-wont-just-fall-like-a-rock-if-the-engine-dies-they-usually-can-be-landed-safely-this-way/
You've got to keep the top rotor pointed slightly forward to keep you heading in that direction, if there's no air flowing over the top rotor you fall like a stone. An autogyro's steering is also entirely dependent on forward momentum, not enough speed and you start spinning in the opposite direction to top rotor. All of this while heading towards the ground at just under terminal vertical velocity because if you've got too much forward momentum when you finally hit you'll end up going beyond the end of the runway and eventually pull up at a motorway service station just outside of Surrey.
Not sure how many of those mechanics will be in the final game but in real life it's a little more complicated than "glide"
The Gronk
Colon Pounder
MadMole has already stated that a base headshot bonus is going back with the perk giving a bonus to the bonus.
Level cap isn't set in stone and may be removed or adjusted.
Everything else from spam-crafting to the punishment for death is matter of balancing, not because the system is fundamentally flawed. The system is simple which strangely enough makes balancing that much harder but it's a system widely used by RPG's not a completely new concept thought up over a bong and a bagel.
JaxTeller718
New member
I do agree (somewhat) with what you are saying but you have to remember that I'm probably the biggest champion of slowing down the beginning stages of the game. I wouldn't want new players going through the first quarter of the game quickly simply because I'm a firm believer in stopping and smelling the roses. My greatest joy comes from the struggle the first few days offer.
You are definitely on to something but my point was when you ask 20 people what a reasonable time frame is you may get 10 different answers. That is going to be the hard part and one where you will get the most variation of answers depending on what a player enjoys.
For me any game where I am over level 30 by day 21 was a game where id restart and go again until I finally just adjusted things the way I wanted them. For the vanilla experience, that's a tough one to pin down, especially when there is (currently) little to no end game goals to work for.
MidnightRook
New member
*cough* Yeah...things like slots for our undies!
JaxTeller718
New member
I don't see any flaw but then again I'm not a min/maxer who needs level 5 in everything. The whole point of there being a limit is to discourage a God Like character, because those are simply no fun. Lord knows I have dealt with those types of players in my mod and at some point you have to ignore them as they play on a wholly different level and do not represent the majority of players.
The things you are claiming we NEED to put points in right at the start i have zero interest in. Headshot Bonus? Meh, I'm a melee/bow combo so I don't NEED headshots. I also don't stuff my backpacks to the brim so I can definitely manage my bag without putting any points in encumbrance. I don't see ANY urgency at all to predestine yourself to one specific build.
JaxTeller718
New member
MASSIVE EDIT
Ok I re-read what you wrote three times. Its bed time and my brain was shot. It appears what I was asking IS still possible but in a different way.
Sorry Gazz, all of this is new for me (us) and we are just trying to get to know the system as it works now as opposed to how it did work.
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ParadiseLostUK
Active member
Just thought i'd repost this in case my question got missed in my wall of text:-
I do have one question though, after seeing the perk that increases your nearby allies stats I am wondering whether the quests are geared towards larger groups or if they are doable solo?
Further thought: Are there plans, for example, to have the enemies (particularly bosses) scale depending on number of players on the quest - diablo style? One thing that deterred me with Conan Exiles was that the bosses were often unkillable unless you were in a reasonably sized group.
I do have one question though, after seeing the perk that increases your nearby allies stats I am wondering whether the quests are geared towards larger groups or if they are doable solo?
Further thought: Are there plans, for example, to have the enemies (particularly bosses) scale depending on number of players on the quest - diablo style? One thing that deterred me with Conan Exiles was that the bosses were often unkillable unless you were in a reasonably sized group.
A Nice Cup of Tea
New member
Wait - is this death penalty (reducing your attributes temporarily, so you lose some perks for the duration) now confirmed?
Because I suggested it as being a good idea a number of pages back, and various people agreed that it would be good. But if there's been any confirmation that this is the actual death penalty then I've missed it.
Has there been a confirmation? Or is it just the usual story where things go from idle speculation to rumour to "fact" in the blink of an eye?
JaxTeller718
New member
MM definitely confirmed it by saying if you lose enough of your strength perk you could drop down a level. You did not have to rebuy the level but it would be greyed out until you unlocked it again via xp.
So it appears there is penalty for dying or getting wounded. It was why he removed the slots from backpacks and went with encumbrance. He said when he would drop down a level he would lose his items by losing that backpack space he purchased. So now its just a slow down of stamina in those slots so you do not lose items.
It was mentioned towards the end of the first Attribute video
DoctorGrey
New member
I totally agree with Subquake and Jax ...and many others who posted similar requests/questions.
@DEVS: Seeing the same questions appearing again and again, maybe you should consider this, while working on your perk-system.
Well, at least it will be modable, if I understood Gazz right.
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