PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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I dunno, Khaine, you're a helluva modder with "Darkness Falls" and your other projects, so I think whatever your crazy modding brain decides to cook up with A17, you should call it whatever you want to call it.

As a lowly pleb who nearly bent his mobo pins installing his new CPU, I'll play whatever you and our crazy-talented modding masterminds decide to cook up, no matter what filthy names you come up with for the TFP's dev cycle ;-)

 
I see that. Orderly, sensible...to a point. If they are replacing a decent system with one they find superior...and they can do it...why not do it? Just because it says Alpha we shouldn't do what is best for the game? (allegedly, its TFP prerogative to do what they feel is best)
Just taking Alpha out of it. If they are in "TFP stage" and that officially allows them to gut a system and upgrade...would their be less consternation?

That model just seems to be best for time crunches really from what I see...when you have publishers breathing down your neck for immediate results. TFP don't have that to answer to. And "near Beta" can mean anything...so its not a question of how much time it takes to actually get there. I mean, these "states" are meaningless when it comes down to it.

Having Labels drive action makes no sense to me...having actions create labels makes a little more sense in my opinion. I am not sure what the actual issue is here because I don't get anything on how calling it Alpha or Zeta or anything actually makes it better or worse. Can you help me with that point? How the name affects the actual action?
I don't see it as labels driving action. I see it as labels clearly defining at what point of development a piece of software is in so the consumer knows what to expect. :) The issue is that Early Access has corrupted the meaning of Alpha as most software in EA should be considered Pre-Alpha as per the definition supplied bu an industry dev.

Regarding the "Near beta" thing, it's because it's been stated twice now. I believe it was the video where MM was showing off his castle build and the copy rotation function for A16. He stated THEN that A16 was likely going to be the last Alpha... and then it wasn't. Now A17 is apparently going to be the "last Alpha" and we're looking at going gold in 2019. That's why I'm concerned about ripping things out and bringing out the actual definition of "Alpha Software" when people try to justify it with that reasoning.

That is not what Alpha is for. That is what pre-alpha is for. If people wish to defend the decisions that TFP make, at least say "Well it's early access" but I'm still going to counter with the evidence that we've apparently been "on the last alpha" or "close to beta" twice now. :)

I dunno, Khaine, you're a helluva modder with "Darkness Falls" and your other projects, so I think whatever your crazy modding brain decides to cook up with A17, you should call it whatever you want to call it.
As a lowly pleb who nearly bent his mobo pins installing his new CPU, I'll play whatever you and our crazy-talented modding masterminds decide to cook up, no matter what filthy names you come up with for the TFP's dev cycle ;-)
To be fair, I did that.

Don't drop CPU's onto sockets. It bends pins.

 
It was a very "who put all this poop in my pants?!" moment. I nearly learned that lesson the hard way. I guess those can be the best teaching moments. Gawd...

 
Roland, i have two questions.

First, about the cave system. Are you going to create something similar for better exploring? Imagine something like a metro or subways, it would be really cool and fun, giving even more inmersion to the game. Or even expanding caves, connecting to mines or bigger caves as well.

Second, about spider. How is progressing the movement? Does exist an animation for climbing walls Or kinda? Also do they suffer the ragdoll effect if we hit them with strong hits?

 
What's the point of nitpicking about the definition of alpha? Words change. Everyone with an Early Access game is calling it "alpha" whether they're correct or not.

What does Steam say about Early Access games when you go to buy one?

Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development.

Get immediate access to games that are being developed with the community's involvement. These are games that evolve as you play them, as you give feedback, and as the developers update and add content.
There is a "learn more" button on the page, covering more detail about what we're buying. Whether they call it alpha beta or banana, it's clearly stated by Steam what we may expect.

It's not as if someone could have bought this game expecting it to be finished.

I don't really care when 7D finishes - TFP have done a great job with it so far. I look forward to more alphas, because that means more content! When we hit beta and gold, new features may not be on the roadmap.

 
Roland, i have two questions.
First, about the cave system. Are you going to create something similar for better exploring? Imagine something like a metro or subways, it would be really cool and fun, giving even more inmersion to the game. Or even expanding caves, connecting to mines or bigger caves as well.

Second, about spider. How is progressing the movement? Does exist an animation for climbing walls Or kinda? Also do they suffer the ragdoll effect if we hit them with strong hits?
Like Minecraft! Would be cool to have a really elaborate cave/mine/subway/temple/graveyard-tombs/etc generation system like that. I always really enjoyed that aspect of Minecraft.

The Fun Pimps sort of starting to implement this already. I found an "abandoned mine", but it's just a small POI and doesn't go far. We'd need an actual generation system to get big and different mines, like what Minecraft does, similar to roads and other such things in 7DtD.

What keeps POIs the freshest is when they're more randomly generated like that. I know there is some of that, but I think the overall building structure is mostly all static as well as a lot of the smaller internals, so not that much variation. Seeing more POI randomization, for example a "store generator" that did different shelf layouts and different product areas, would I think be cool and would add quite a bit more personality to the game.

 
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Are all of these things like a rule? I've had this conversation in our Discord when people expect me, a modder who is definitely not a professional, expect me to stick to the same rules for my patches and updates. Which I always laugh off because, well, if I am doing the work I get to set the rules, not them.

It seems in this day of EA these rules are definitely changing across the board. Looking at Ark and Empyrion alone none of those companies follow ANY of those definitions.

Game development is a very different place today than it was 5 years ago and 10 years ago. I think the days of companies conforming to a single standard are definitely in the rearview.

 
I don't see it as labels driving action. I see it as labels clearly defining at what point of development a piece of software is in so the consumer knows what to expect. :) The issue is that Early Access has corrupted the meaning of Alpha as most software in EA should be considered Pre-Alpha as per the definition supplied bu an industry dev.
Regarding the "Near beta" thing, it's because it's been stated twice now. I believe it was the video where MM was showing off his castle build and the copy rotation function for A16. He stated THEN that A16 was likely going to be the last Alpha... and then it wasn't. Now A17 is apparently going to be the "last Alpha" and we're looking at going gold in 2019. That's why I'm concerned about ripping things out and bringing out the actual definition of "Alpha Software" when people try to justify it with that reasoning.

That is not what Alpha is for. That is what pre-alpha is for. If people wish to defend the decisions that TFP make, at least say "Well it's early access" but I'm still going to counter with the evidence that we've apparently been "on the last alpha" or "close to beta" twice now. :)
:) Thats cool. I understand what you are saying now so far as clear communication goes with the customer. That's all really marketing when it comes to conveying a state to the consumer. I can cede that part of this certainly. However, I would maintain my thought that, calling the stage alpha does not actually do anything for the production. If TFP have a workflow then they can technically arrange and name it however they want or not use names at all. At best its just stating round about where they feel they are in the process. The way I personally feel is that Alpha is for building, making systems, connecting things, testing how that works until you get the engine/parts working they way you need it. Beta would then be for the polish and fine tuning of established systems. But again, regardless of what I call these stages, it doesn't change what I am actually doing. I am just doing what needs to be done, or more accurately, what I want to be done. (In this case of course its what TFP want to do)

So my thought is, standardizing a general state of the game to the customer is a plus...agreed. But having the name of alpha telling you what you can and can't do as opposed to doing what needs to be done, I am not sold on. I feel TFP have explained to final points that this game is a work in progress and things are going to be added and removed until the mix feels right.

They are not mass producing cars on an assembly line like most AAA publishers do with their games...where you have a station for these things to be done, and on down the assembly line it goes from alpha to gold.

Think of this more as they are custom building a dream car...restoring an old classic or tricking out a new car of their dreams, (Dragula anyone? :) ) Soooo yeah, they are trying different pieces to make this car the exact car they want, seeing it come together, and taking liberties to go back and change some things to facilitate new stuff they still want to incorporate...there is no assembly line process for this because its a custom or even a "concept car". This is crafting a game...not producing a game. If they are saying they are somewhere near the stage where the engine is good, and all the doors and wheels are on but they need to go with a different hood or alternator or what not...they can do that without having to cause "backup" on an assembly line. It may slow them down from getting to the painting stage, sure...but its not like there is another car right behind it thats needing to be produced and shoved out the door....this is their DREAM game...levity to ignore the label of Alpha because its not following a paint by numbers production...this is custom. Alpha, Beta just doesn't really matter, its attaching arbitrary labels from one system of mass production to the process of hand crafting...its very approximate and that is all. Calling it spaghetti and meatballs as the current state it is in could be accurate, or Frankenstein state...it has no actual bearing on how they are doing it. From where I see it anyway.

Again, I see what you are saying about the label not matching the work lineup in what the industry has set forth...but they don't actually have to, or even benefit from a name. TFP = Rebels....and bless them for being so! :)

 
Are all of these things like a rule? I've had this conversation in our Discord when people expect me, a modder who is definitely not a professional, expect me to stick to the same rules for my patches and updates. Which I always laugh off because, well, if I am doing the work I get to set the rules, not them.
It seems in this day of EA these rules are definitely changing across the board. Looking at Ark and Empyrion alone none of those companies follow ANY of those definitions.

Game development is a very different place today than it was 5 years ago and 10 years ago. I think the days of companies conforming to a single standard are definitely in the rearview.
I champion this thought! :)

 
Having Labels drive action makes no sense to me...having actions create labels makes a little more sense in my opinion. I am not sure what the actual issue is here because I don't get anything on how calling it Alpha or Zeta or anything actually makes it better or worse. Can you help me with that point? How the name affects the actual action?
The sequence KhaineGB described is what traditional games developer use and there are good reasons for them using that. Think of it as best practices, at least for them.

But the word "traditional" hints at the problem of this way of development IMHO. It is a constrained model, useful when you make a game where you can make all design decisions on the drawing table and do only small refinements after playing the vertical slice.

And this old model doesn't work well when you are in Early Access. You can't give players a vertical slice. They have to be able to play the whole game. You have two choices:

1) Develop the game to a nearly finished game and only then go into EA. But you can't do that if you need the EA-money to finance the development. Really, TFP couldn't have done it this way and still have produced a game like we get now.

2) Built a minimal game, go into EA early and then upgrade, rebuilt and experiment, all in plain view of everyone. This is a different development model, more agile, less waterfall.

The words "alpha" and "beta" were defined by those old traditional developers for their development model and might have to be redefined for this type of development.

(EDIT: I see you are practically saying the same in post #33977)

 
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The words "alpha" and "beta" were defined by those old traditional developers for their development model and might have to be redefined for this type of development.
Agreed, though I would say, lets not simply redefine the meaning of a word and call it a day. The words, even redefined are too rigid for this style I would think. It is in many ways chaos. They are working on this game from a QUALITATIVE state instead of a QUANTITAIVE state. The same reason I hate psychiatry is trying to use a quantitative method to resolve a qualitative issue will never work right out of the box. Psychiatry can't be done on base logic of A+B=C. It is all personal and far too complex for a simple linear measurement. As I have said before, this is a custom car they are building, not an assembly line churn out.

Also, this isn't super important or something I am passionately discussing. I am not really trying to change minds or anything. I just like a good discussion. I learn so much from the likes of some people! :) Thanks to you and everyone for putting up with my random rant! :) *Hugs*

 
I'm going to pull from wiki because it's one of the first few links. However most of the first page results (with 1 or 2 outlyers) on google search + what I've learned from talking with other devs seems to largely match up with this.
Alpha

See also: Alpha release

Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented, and assets are partially finished. A game in alpha is feature complete, that is, game is playable and contains all the major features. These features may be further revised based on testing and feedback. Additional small, new features may be added, similarly planned, but unimplemented features may be dropped. Programmers focus mainly on finishing the codebase, rather than implementing additions. Alpha occurs eight to ten months before code release, but this can vary significantly based on the scope of content and assets any given game has.

Beta

See also: Beta release

Beta is feature and asset complete version of the game, when only bugs are being fixed. This version contains no bugs that prevent the game from being shippable. No changes are made to the game features, assets, or code. Beta occurs two to three months before code release.

Okay, you clearly can't see the difference. I doubt explaining it will help, but I'm gonna give it a bash anyways.

What they did with the vehicles gives us something that is largely the same. Yes, it was ripped out, polished up and even replaced in some regards. But a Minibike in A17 is the same as a minibike in A16. Why am I using that as an example? Because it's the only consistent thing between both alpahs.

The skill system? Totally different layout, only a few of the 0-5 perks from A16 seem to be present, most other things appear to be outright removed. THAT is the problem I have. From the few screenshots we've seen, roughly 75% of the current skill system is just not there for no logical reason that I can see other than "That's how TFP want it."

Which isn't a very good answer at this stage of development.

Now please stop making assumptions.
By your definition we shouldn't have a single system not already in Alpha 1.0 then. Find someone that has a copy and see how that would work out.

Also, I never made a single assumption. You are though. Namely that you know more about programming than a group that has sold millions of copies of their game. If you don't like the way they do Alpha then do it differently when your game goes Alpha. You will have the longest Pre-Alpha phase in history but that's up to you.

Also, don't you Mod? You should be ecstatic over the new buff system which, if I remember correctly, was what they have been needing to fix the skill trees. Everything sounds much more moddable now.

 
Like I said, this is less of a revision and more of a toss out and replace.
While it may be true(I don't presume to know). You have no way to know if that statement is even close to factual. The only way you could know is if you have both the old and new code base to compare.

 
Roland, i have two questions.
First, about the cave system. Are you going to create something similar for better exploring? Imagine something like a metro or subways, it would be really cool and fun, giving even more inmersion to the game. Or even expanding caves, connecting to mines or bigger caves as well.

Second, about spider. How is progressing the movement? Does exist an animation for climbing walls Or kinda? Also do they suffer the ragdoll effect if we hit them with strong hits?
Caves haven't been touched. They will be no different in A17 than they were in A16....pathetic. As to the future it just depends on what is possible and keeps the world together with players zooming around in different directions in 4x4s and also structural integrity for surface buildings. Minecraft has no structural integrity and therefore no problems with extensive caverns below the surface anywhere. 7 Days to Die has more of a problem in that regard and the problem hasn't been solved for A17.

Spiders will not move vertically in A17. The pathing system was completely rewritten and does not support zombies crawling up the sides of buildings. I'm sure it's on faatal's list for A18 though. All zombies ragdoll when stunned or killed.

 
I think the main point khaine is trying to make is why are they completely changing core gameplay systems when the game is going gold in less then 15 months according to madmole. Early alpha changes made sense but when it’s so close to being done seems strange to be changing the whole way the game plays so close to full release. Could be wrong but that’s kind of what I’ve taken out of what he’s said last few pages.

 
Khaine's definition of Alpha doesn't give you a playable game until YEARS into the dev cycle. EA is actually more work in a lot of way because there needs to be so many different playable stages along the way. There is a lot of work done to get to those stages that if you were doing only in house development you could just skip and let your play testers suffer through. For EA to be at all workable then Alpha is exactly what TFP is doing and Beta will be content lock and bug fixing. It would not work any other way for an EA game.

 
By your definition we shouldn't have a single system not already in Alpha 1.0 then. Find someone that has a copy and see how that would work out.
Also, I never made a single assumption. You are though. Namely that you know more about programming than a group that has sold millions of copies of their game. If you don't like the way they do Alpha then do it differently when your game goes Alpha. You will have the longest Pre-Alpha phase in history but that's up to you.

Also, don't you Mod? You should be ecstatic over the new buff system which, if I remember correctly, was what they have been needing to fix the skill trees. Everything sounds much more moddable now.
Technically you are correct. No we shouldn't and that goes back to the fact that Early Access is now considered an acceptable label to toss on an Alpha game and then totally change things, when pre-alpha would be more appropriate.

I am not making an assumption that I know more about programming than a group who has sold millions of copies of a game. At no point did I state that, nor imply it.

I have ONLY stuck to the phrasing and words used regarding the various development stages that a game goes through, with evidence to back it up. No assumptions made regarding my knowledge vs theirs, and CERTAINLY no mention of my PROGRAMMING knowledge vs theirs.

You're putting words into my mouth and making your own assumptions. Stop it.

While it may be true(I don't presume to know). You have no way to know if that statement is even close to factual. The only way you could know is if you have both the old and new code base to compare.
Look at the info dump posted earlier (which you referenced regarding me modding) and you'll see that quite a few skill effects are actually gone. On the plus side, we've gotten more and some of the ones that DIDN'T work before (like reload speed) now do, so that's good.

However the actual screenshots posted do appear to be a toss out and replace, which I did state was an assumption on my part in my original post. :)

 
Beta is feature and asset complete version of the game, when only bugs are being fixed.
Sure.

This version contains no bugs that prevent the game from being shippable.
Yeah, right. The bugs don't walk up to you and announce themselves. Betas contain numerous unknown bugs, some of which you would not ship a game with.

No changes are made to the game features, assets, or code. Beta occurs two to three months before code release.
Nice logic problem there. If no changes are made to the code, then the bugs are fixed by magic?

Beta occurs two to three months before code release.
No. Beta lasts as long as it takes to reduce the bugs to an acceptable level. Once done, release dates typically come down to marketing or financial reasons.

That mess needs to be rewritten.

 
Sure.


Yeah, right. The bugs don't walk up to you and announce themselves. Betas contain numerous unknown bugs, some of which you would not ship a game with.

Nice logic problem there. If no changes are made to the code, then the bugs are fixed by magic?

No. Beta lasts as long as it takes to reduce the bugs to an acceptable level. Once done, release dates typically come down to marketing or financial reasons.

That mess needs to be rewritten.
That's literally a quote from Wikipedia, so don't shoot the messenger.

Yes, it probably needs to be re-written. Yes, it's probably out of date (especially regarding time frames), however the logical progression of pre-alpha -> alpha -> beta -> whatever does appear to be verified by other folks in other forums and discussion threads. Some of the steps in-between are up for debate, but those are largely accepted as "correct."

As stated earlier, it's only Steam Early Access that has muddied the waters.

 
What they did with the vehicles gives us something that is largely the same. Yes, it was ripped out, polished up and even replaced in some regards. But a Minibike in A17 is the same as a minibike in A16. Why am I using that as an example? Because it's the only consistent thing between both alpahs.
No it is not. Minibike construction, handling, camera, sounds and code/xml are very different. The physics are a 100% different system.

 
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