PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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Okay... what you call a flaw, many others have defined as a desirable feature. And it's not just that.
And again, you're going down the wrong path of what my original point is while being one of the people who doesn't have the right to tell others how to play. Who are you people?

But enough of that... My original statement stands.
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It was called a flaw by developers themselves. Zombies standing right above you running in circles unable to do anything is bad pathfinding. Whether you want bad pathfinding or not (for some reason), is up to you, but it's certainly a flaw.

I'm not telling anyone how to play. I don't think others are, either. They're giving opinions. I didn't tell you or others "you can't do this in the game" or "you can't do that in the game".

We'll agree to disagree on your original statement. The game they're making is crystal clear to me. As for balancing and options, that will come after the alpha :smile-new:

This game was built, literally, on the Minecraft engine. So it is Minecraft....with sixteen alphas worth of improvements.

But who really knows at this point? The devs do. You and I we don't have a clue...But I'll admit it.
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Probably a poor choice of words on your side, but 7DtD is not at all built on Minecraft's engine; it's built in Unity. That is the engine. That both are voxel games is a different thing :p

 
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It was called a flaw by developers themselves. Zombies standing right above you running in circles unable to do anything is bad pathfinding. Whether you want bad pathfinding or not (for some reason), is up to you, but it's certainly a flaw.
I'm not telling anyone how to play. I don't think others are, either. They're giving opinions. I didn't tell you or others "you can't do this in the game" or "you can't do that in the game".

We'll agree to disagree on your original statement. The game they're making is crystal clear to me. As for balancing and options, that will come after the alpha :smile-new:

Probably a poor choice of words on your side, but 7DtD is not at all built on Minecraft's engine; it's built in Unity. That is the engine. That both are voxel games is a different thing :p
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It was originally. It is now in Unity, but was not in alpha one if what I have seen and read is correct. Read how I said "was" built and not "is" built. So I was not incorrect in that statement, but you did misread it. Possibly intentionally, possibly unintentionally. But now that I pointed out that it was written in the past tense, you may not make that mistake by accident, you could only ever intentionally misquote me at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

Some of you in need of a smilie? I think some of you need a smilie. Please, have a smilie from me.
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Is the smilie hidden behind your fist going "pow" in our faces?

 
It was originally. It is now in Unity, but was not in alpha one if what I have seen and read is correct. Read how I said "was" built and not "is" built. So I was not incorrect in that statement, but you did misread it. Possibly intentionally, possibly unintentionally. But now that I pointed out that it was written in the past tense, you may not make that mistake by accident, you could only ever intentionally misquote me at this point.
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I was simply not aware that Alpha 1 was built on Minecraft's engine. I mean, as far as I know minecraft was coded from scratch in Java, so I don't think there is even such a thing as "Minecraft's engine". Did TFP really code 7DtD in Java and then migrated it all to Unity and C# down the line?

 
The smilie was given. You just have to look for it. I just hope it effectively counteracts all the passive aggressiveness of the original message...

 
Unity is Java now?
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Come on, man, everyone knows Unity was built on the Java engine -- and the Java engine was built using the Minecraft engine. It's what they used to make Half-Life and Halo.

I'll stop now.

 
TFP, Roland... Thumbs down to you guys. I'm sorry. I don't care about a release date or anything like that. Figure out what game your making... And just balance it.
Do you want a Voxel game? Then build a Voxel game that supports a wide variety of game play. Otherwise, what the hell is the point? Other than you're overly invested at this point.

Do you want a straight up FPS game with zombies? Then just make it an FPS with zombies.

Do you want it a tower defense? Then make it a tower defense.

Do you want the game to be all of this and more? Then let it be all of this and more and ignore these people telling others how to play. You can't do this without a ton of options, usable at a menu. You just can't. If you're unwilling to build options to be a game that does everything with a menu that supports tweaking game play, then don't be a game that aims to do everything.

This is the heart of all of these arguments. Maybe it's time for a new game definition... That... or check yourselves for a moment. What... are you building? When's the last time you actually asked that to yourselves? Because right now? What the hell is 7D2D aiming for at this point?
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I personally think you brought up some great points man... What is 7DTD? Ive been asking myself why i love the game so much..

I cant get into a lot of games for very long. Rocket league, i enjoy.. but not for that long. I still play WoW. Horde side and yes, i still support sylvanans but not the writing from blizzard. I play a Diablo 3 a few weeks, path a few weeks, NMS a week or two and i get bored. Then i go back to 7DTD because its unique.

TFP built a zombie horror survival. It can be a tower defense, it could be a PvE shooter, it could be a Battle royale with zombies.. soon with quests, it could be an actual RPG.

I agree, i'd love more options via menu (Hp bars!). i think more otpions are ALWAYS better than fewer. i love factorio's options menu. pretty nice, maybe in the future... there'll be options for resources as well.

yeah, except for the people crying for a release sooner rather than later... the core of the arguments are whats the goal. Ultimately, that is the biggest question but TFP cant answer that.

Thats on us, the players.

The beauty of 7DTD, to me (key words), is that the game is basically a looter shooter mixed with tower defense. I always have a base underground for a lot of reasons, main one is... i use a *TON* of cement AND have a lot of forges going. I dont care too much about dealing with screamers in certain situations so i always go underground. Hell, my friends would make fun of me cause the first "main base" i build, is underground. everytime, without fail.

Specifically Roland...
Talking out one side of his neck that people shouldn't play a certain way, build a base a certain way, game the system a certain way. While out the other side of his neck he's saying that he's looking forward to the changes that make you build a new... certain way... a new... way to play the system... looking for new ways to game the system... which... is what all games ever have been all about.
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I havent read anywhere where Roland said anything of the sort. I maybe " White Knighting " (suck it Black Knight!), but I don't recall Roland telling people how to play, how to build etc. etc.

Everyone plays different ways.

But if its about the digging zombies... people like it, people dont. I, an aforementioned cave dweller, love the idea of digging zombies. Makes me figure out on a different build... should i make the zombies come to me on horde night? They funnel themselves easier, make a *MASSIVE* pit and let them fall. There are so many options, probably more with the digging zombies.

TLDR: hi.

 
The smilie was given. You just have to look for it. I just hope it effectively counteracts all the passive aggressiveness of the original message...
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I found the smilie :) Maybe it should have been a winkie ;)

 
Ahem.

Yeah static terrain will solve that :) Just teasing. Yeah eventually underground bases won't be as viable one way or another. Lack of oxygen, vitamin d deficiency, black lung from mining in enclosed spaces and better zombie pathing come to mind as the best solutions.
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Case closed!

 
Thanks for taking the time to read what I was trying to get at.

The beauty of 7DTD, to me (key words), is that the game is basically a looter shooter mixed with tower defense. I always have a base underground for a lot of reasons, main one is... i use a *TON* of cement AND have a lot of forges going. I dont care too much about dealing with screamers in certain situations so i always go underground. Hell, my friends would make fun of me cause the first "main base" i build, is underground. everytime, without fail.
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Agreed. I like screamers a lot. I like random hordes. I don't like not having time to go build/repair/etc because I'm being pestered by an army of what ends up feeling like toddlers forever wanting cookies. "Shut UP! I GAVE you cookies 5 minutes ago! GO AWAY!"

Screamers turned from an exciting "Holy crap! We got a problem!" to a... "Just... Just don't answer the door... maybe they'll go away... why?!?! QQ Why do they keep bothering me! I told them to take me off their list 100 times!". Just a frustrating annoyance now.

If they instead spawned to just gun shots outside of a horde night, I'd love screamers way more. So looting a POI suddenly becomes much more of an intense risk and enjoyment. If the house you're in turns into an epic explosive spray and pray fight for your life, you might want to head out the house from the roof top first...

But if its about the digging zombies... people like it, people dont. I, an aforementioned cave dweller, love the idea of digging zombies. Makes me figure out on a different build... should i make the zombies come to me on horde night? They funnel themselves easier, make a *MASSIVE* pit and let them fall. There are so many options, probably more with the digging zombies.

TLDR: hi.
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The main problem I have with diggers is all the broken legs that are going to come out of it.

* What's the place you frequent most? - Your base.

* Where's the majority of potholes going to show up? - Your base.

* Where are you most apt to break your leg in a random hole? - Your base.

And what's the reward for diggers? I get to fill potholes... So i don't do what?... Break my legs... If we keep on this path let's just turn this into farmville and make the game nothing but busy work. Screamers, base repairs, pot holes. Exploration? In... your.... dreams.

My concern with diggers is the silent threat that you can't defend against really. To a degree... Some of the potential risks are:

* Digger spawns, digs down, but you've left your base and don't know it's present. You explore for a few days. What do I come back to? Collapsed terrain? My entire base innards in shambles? All my loot gone? Because I couldn't be alerted to this threat?

* Especially with AI pathing now finding the weakest path to get to you, am I going to be stuck refilling an entire 20-N block long path? Or do I have to stuff a few concrete blocks here and there until I have a rubic cube perimeter around my base of patchy concrete blocks mixed with dirt?

It's all messy... The whole digger concept. Which is why I think a fair amount of games with sub terrain environments opted for a full sub terrain environment... Diggers, unless you're playing Dig Dug, aren't the most common feature in these games. Because digger MOB's are complex from an overall game architecture aspect. I don't think TFP gives the complexity nearly enough credit.

 
Ahem.

Yeah static terrain will solve that Just teasing. Yeah eventually underground bases won't be as viable one way or another. Lack of oxygen, vitamin d deficiency, black lung from mining in enclosed spaces and better zombie pathing come to mind as the best solutions.
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Case closed!
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Actually I do recall that... Fair point. Meh... I took much of it as talk at that point but that was Joel's/TFP's stated direction. I hoped that if it wasn't talk they'd actually look at the complexities. But *shrug*...

Good reminder TSBX... Much appreciated.

 
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Dude, take a break and wait, come back and see how it plays out.

Most of your complaints can be dealt with by clever base building.

I never build underground, and have forges running most of the time. Screamers come all the time and then kill themselves, never screaming. They are a non issue.

 
Thanks for taking the time to read what I was trying to get at.
It's all messy... The whole digger concept. Which is why I think a fair amount of games with sub terrain environments opted for a full sub terrain environment... Diggers, unless you're playing Dig Dug, aren't the most common feature in these games. Because digger MOB's are complex from an overall game architecture aspect. I don't think TFP gives the complexity nearly enough credit.
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A. You brought up a lot of good points that, personally, i think people havent actually asked themselves.

B. Yeah, i completely agree with the screamers.. Gun fires spawning screamers would change how you want to play. Risk spawning some to kill some radiated / ferals / zombie bears faster? The choices!

C. The diggers, if i remember correctly... are only if the zombies cant find you (and you're sensed / hunted). Which probably wont happen if you're at or close to bedrock.. or even if you're 10+ blocks below the surface. I think all zombies have a chance to dig, not a specific zombie that digs.

Think they add a much needed threat. Again, the way i play.. i like the threat, but i also love convenience of the cave.

If you're building a massive tower, and you're distracted and zombies out the base of your tower... you goin' down. will it happen? probably not.

I.. dont recall exactly how the wandering hordes are going to work with digging. They arent hunting you at the start, just moving to / at a specific direction / location.. so, i think thats safe. Safer than building up! Except for my tower of babel (which looked hideous :( )

I still plan on having a cave. its what i do! But i'll probably work on it later in the game.

If, in reality, the digging is just too strong and they can sense you from 40+ blocks below surface... maybe they might get tuned down? hopefully? I felt that the digging threat is primarily for horde nights.

Although yeah, with the new AI pathing, i hope that they dont just start digging, esp if im on a second story building!

 
Yeah I haven't decided to come back to 7D2D yet or not. I've been on a long break. A16 dulled quickly.

I'm a builder at heart. More so than an run and gunner or a scavenger. So I wouldn't be surprised if I did dip my toe into A17. With some strong hopes of being pleasantly surprised. I get urges to build something sometimes... meh...

I personally don't see 7D2D being done until something more like an A19 or an A20. I may wait until A18+ before trying it all out again. Who knows. I'm still really curious what the end result will be. I just wish there was more of a minecraft leaning I guess in building a game oriented to freedom of play as opposed to a narrowed style of play forced by the developer. *shrug*

 
Been playing since Alpha 7...I am so hip , I was there when it was square! (I would totally buy that shirt if they sold one!)

Do not have a thousand+ hours of playtime . I play each alpha till day 25 or so , in the older alphas...to around day 75 now in the A16...I then just quit and wait for the next release...I am not burned out on the game and just waiting for the next one to come out .

There are plenty of other games to play , working on my own Unity project solo as well...which takes up a lot of my time when I have it...work , going out , family , friends , amusement parks etc...

My point being...some people should just step away and do something else...the game is not even FINISHED yet...why burn yourself out on it? There are plenty of other things to do with your time until the next release!

 
That is not simple. Many values in XML.
Standard zombie:

<property name="MaxViewAngle" value="180"/>

<property name="SightRange" value="30"/> <!-- distance in m -->

<property name="SightLightThreshold" value="-2,150"/> <!-- how well lit you have to be for the zombie to see you at min,max range -->

<property name="SleeperWakeupSightDetectionMin" value="-40,5"/> <!-- Indiv.Random. sight capability - "I see you" light value at point blank -->

<property name="SleeperWakeupSightDetectionMax" value="340,480"/> <!-- Indiv.Random. "I see you" light value at "SightRange" -->

<property name="SleeperSenseSightDetectionMin" value="-10,0"/> <!-- same for groaning, not waking -->

<property name="SleeperSenseSightDetectionMax" value="200,300"/>

<property name="SleeperNoiseSenseThreshold" value="2,13"/> <!-- Indiv.Random. hearing capability - "I hear something" noise value -->

<property name="SleeperNoiseWakeThreshold" value="20,20"/>
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thank you, if I get this right, this particular zed can hear very loud noise up to 20 blocks away? trying to see how far underground people can be to not be detected. too many people seems concerned about that. now if I comb through the xmls with the above line highlighted I should find all the zeds max hearing range?

 
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