PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Jackelmyer]

I'm not sure why TFP should adhere to any standards in terms of genres, as opposed to making their own unique thing (which so far has been working out great for them). As for options, you realize we're still in alpha and with systems constantly changing? The options will, if anything, come with a full release, including a Steam workshop to add even further, easier customization. Complaining about options in an alpha when you actually have a metric tonne of them in the XMLs is silly.

I don't know when you came into all these conversations, but options, menu development, has either been stifled chatter or avoided.

And read.

I'm not asking for options. What I'm asking for them to decide what their building. Because right now, they're all over the place.

 

[Omega-Factor]

TFP, Roland... Thumbs down to you guys. I'm sorry. I don't care about a release date or anything like that. Figure out what game your making... And just balance it.
Do you want a Voxel game? Then build a Voxel game that supports a wide variety of game play. Otherwise, what the hell is the point? Other than you're overly invested at this point.

Do you want a straight up FPS game with zombies? Then just make it an FPS with zombies.

Do you want it a tower defense? Then make it a tower defense.

Do you want the game to be all of this and more? Then let it be all of this and more and ignore these people telling others how to play. You can't do this without a ton of options, usable at a menu. You just can't. If you're unwilling to build options to be a game that does everything with a menu that supports tweaking game play, then don't be a game that aims to do everything.

This is the heart of all of these arguments. Maybe it's time for a new game definition... That... or check yourselves for a moment. What... are you building? When's the last time you actually asked that to yourselves? Because right now? What the hell is 7D2D aiming for at this point?

This is basically Minecraft with guns for adults... and we all know how unsuccessful Minecraft was... oh, wait...

 

[Jackelmyer]

This is basically Minecraft with guns for adults... and we all know how unsuccessful Minecraft was... oh, wait...

You sure? Minecraft had underground terrain. Minecraft allowed you to play as you want. Minecraft let modders restrict and alter game play. Minecraft was built, literally to provide you a foundation to do what you wanted. Not restrict what you do.

I'd say it's more Fallout with digging than Minecraft with Guns. But who really knows at this point. The most we get in direction tends to be Rolands opinions on how the game should be played.

 

[Omega-Factor]

You sure? Minecraft had underground terrain. Minecraft allowed you to play as you want. Minecraft let modders restrict and alter game play. Minecraft was built, literally to provide you a foundation to do what you wanted. Not restrict what you do.
I'd say it's more Fallout with digging than Minecraft with Guns. But who really knows at this point. The most we get in direction tends to be Rolands opinions on how the game should be played.

If you feel like the game is going in a direction you are not happy with, and this is a trend since 20XX, maybe it's time to let it go. There are other games out there.

Not that I don't feel some of the same frustration that you are describing. I think Minecraft lost the thread and started getting worse with each new iteration, so the danger is there.

We are still so far from gold that I can't really despair at this point. I will just wait and see how it all pans out.

By all means, keep posting if you feel like it. Seems a bit like pissing into the wind at the moment though.

 

[Erik Louden]

I said noise level. Not the volume the sound effect is played at. Two different things.

I remember the days when the thunder crack would scare me outta my chair.

 

[Jackelmyer]

If you feel like the game is going in a direction you are not happy with, and this is a trend since 20XX, maybe it's time to let it go. There are other games out there.
Not that I don't feel some of the same frustration that you are describing. I think Minecraft lost the thread and started getting worse with each new iteration, so the danger is there.

We are still so far from gold that I can't really despair at this point. I will just wait and see how it all pans out.

By all means, keep posting if you feel like it. Seems a bit like pissing into the wind at the moment though.

Fair enough and fair points. I'm only hanging around today to keep the comment I made legit and respond if needed. And yeah, I've been leaning more and more towards let it go. But I have been involved here for a fair while now imo. I've put time into understanding some aspects of modding (at least XML), prefab building, game guts, server builds, etc.

Alpha is really meant to give a company funds to build the game. The next step after Kickstarter. But by doing so, they have to hang their tails in the wind and take the feedback. Because... we've literally invested in the game.

I know I ruffle feathers some times. And I've spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours on this game, thousands if I take the mod/prefab/knowledge sharing into account. By no means the heaviest 7D2D enthusiast. But I've infested.

So yeah, I've seen something in TFP and 7D2D that I really like. Who doesn't put up a little fight for what they like? *shrug* But yeah. I hear ya. It's about that time.

Edit: And regarding pissing in the wind? You're absolutely right. Which is really... really... disappointing.

 

[Chancer0076]

You sure? Minecraft had underground terrain. Minecraft allowed you to play as you want. Minecraft let modders restrict and alter game play. Minecraft was built, literally to provide you a foundation to do what you wanted. Not restrict what you do.
I'd say it's more Fallout with digging than Minecraft with Guns. But who really knows at this point. The most we get in direction tends to be Rolands opinions on how the game should be played.

Just throwing this out there.... stop playing then? Make your own game?

This is a community driven game and TFP have taken many suggestions from the community, BUT, ultimately it is sill their game to build the way they want. You can't satisfy all of the people all of the time and YOU are just one person.

I for one think they are doing a great job and I'm happy to see how A17 turns out and eventually the fully released game.

 

[Chancer0076]

Fair enough and fair points. I'm only hanging around today to keep the comment I made legit and respond if needed. And yeah, I've been leaning more and more towards let it go. But I have been involved here for a fair while now imo. I've put time into understanding some aspects of modding (at least XML), prefab building, game guts, server builds, etc.
Alpha is really meant to give a company funds to build the game. The next step after Kickstarter. But by doing so, they have to hang their tails in the wind and take the feedback. Because... we've literally invested in the game.

I know I ruffle feathers some times. And I've spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours on this game, thousands if I take the mod/prefab/knowledge sharing into account. By no means the heaviest 7D2D enthusiast. But I've infested.

So yeah, I've seen something in TFP and 7D2D that I really like. Who doesn't put up a little fight for what they like? *shrug* But yeah. I hear ya. It's about that time.

Edit: And regarding pissing in the wind? You're absolutely right. Which is really... really... disappointing.

You wrote this post while I was writing lol - fair enough but your first post came across harsh.

You don't see anything in the new stuff in A17 that might keep you interested? I see a whole lot of new things to look forward to.

 

[SnowDog1942]

Thank you for serving.

 

[Jackelmyer]

You wrote this post while I was writing lol - fair enough but your first post came across harsh.
You don't see anything in the new stuff in A17 that might keep you interested? I see a whole lot of new things to look forward to.

The only real meat you'll likely have ongoing appreciation for in A17 is the new AI.

You've had transportation. I love the new jeep and motorcycle. But... man I've been playing games for 30 years... I know what a new feature that piggy backs on an old feature feels like. Feels like the old feature... Even if prettier and neater is cool... After about a few hours of driving around in the Jeep, you may get a kick or two out of it going forward.

The other real meat of the game, you likely won't feel. The new buff system.

Things will look prettier... cool... Pretty games are nice... But game play is way more important... and not realism... not immersion. I bet you Solitaire will forever have more hours played than 7D2D, Minecraft, and WoW combined. It ain't pretty. It ain't built for immersion. It's a game invented to entertain. Which... is what games are for.

I know I came off harsh. And I know the 2nd sentence "I'm sorry" (ok... second statement) was weak. I rarely say things unless I feel they need to be said. And at this point, I think TFP could use a refresh on providing an overall picture of what they intend in this game and actually work to deliver that vision.

TFP is definitely hard at work on something. But what? Who knows.

Skill system totally revamped.

Weapon crafting totally revamped.

Buff system totally revamped.

AI system totally revamped.

Core... absolute core... game mechanics and game play impacting features... revamped. To me... that smells of... "We don't know what we're building.". Which... I thought they did. <shrug>

 

[Drithyl]

You sure? Minecraft had underground terrain. Minecraft allowed you to play as you want. Minecraft let modders restrict and alter game play. Minecraft was built, literally to provide you a foundation to do what you wanted. Not restrict what you do.
I'd say it's more Fallout with digging than Minecraft with Guns. But who really knows at this point. The most we get in direction tends to be Rolands opinions on how the game should be played.

Minecraft ignored modders for a very long part of its early development, where mods (not scripts) could not be used in MP, and they kept promising that they'd make a framework for that, which took forever. How is it any different? People can mod 7 days to die as well, and TFP have confirmed many, many, many times that there will be a Steam workshop and more moddability.

Why does the game have to be describable by other games? I really don't see where you think they're all over the place. Maybe if you brought specific examples to the table, it could be discussed. But as it stands, the game has always been about the same things.

EDIT:

Skill system totally revamped.Weapon crafting totally revamped.

Buff system totally revamped.

AI system totally revamped.

Core... absolute core... game mechanics and game play impacting features... revamped. To me... that smells of... "We don't know what we're building.". Which... I thought they did. <shrug>

Revamped doesn't mean they're no longer the same type of system. They're just improved. The game still has a clear direction. If what you mean is that it has taken them many iterations to get to something final, then sure, I agree. But most games go through that. You just don't see it because they're not all early access.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Minecraft ignored modders for a very long part of its early development, where mods (not scripts) could not be used in MP, and they kept promising that they'd make a framework for that, which took forever. How is it any different? People can mod 7 days to die as well, and TFP have confirmed many, many, many times that there will be a Steam workshop and more moddability.
Why does the game have to be describable by other games? I really don't see where you think they're all over the place. Maybe if you brought specific examples to the table, it could be discussed. But as it stands, the game has always been about the same things.

So... examples... And go ahead and use the Alpha card. Knock yerself out. Alpha to work through the vision is great. But vision... These examples seem to provide a notable wavering in vision IMO.

TFP is definitely hard at work on something. But what? Who knows.
Skill system totally revamped.

Weapon crafting totally revamped.

Buff system totally revamped.

AI system totally revamped.

Core... absolute core... game mechanics and game play impacting features... revamped. To me... that smells of... "We don't know what we're building.". Which... I thought they did. <shrug>

I don't see how Minecraft ignoring modders fits the conversation. Not meant to be a snarky response. I genuinely don't understand. The point I was making in my statement was that Minecraft built its way up to provide more and more ways to play. It didn't really go through much (and I'm having to recall way way back so I could be off) game play restricting releases.

Meaning, they provided features that would typically let you do more. Not features that let you do less.

And Omega-Factor mentioned this was like "Minecraft with guns". I deliberately kept the minecraft comparison out of my original post. Specifically because of your question "Why does the game have to be describable by other games?". Sure. lol. I wanted to bring up the Minecraft bit. But before I posted I double checked their Kickstarter page and the Steam Store page to be sure if they have Minecraft comparisons worded into the game description. Which, I couldn't find. So I didn't bring it up in my initial post.

EDIT: hahaha... forum conversations rule... lol

Revamped doesn't mean they're no longer the same type of system. They're just improved. The game still has a clear direction. If what you mean is that it has taken them many iterations to get to something final, then sure, I agree. But most games go through that. You just don't see it because they're not all early access.

Actually, they've specifically described skills as a very new system. Just because we invest points or something similar doesn't make it the same system at all.

Weapons is completely a new system.

Buffs they've stated is rebuilt from the ground up.

AI... erm... I don't recall faatal stating it was a ground up rebuild but I've gone back and forth with him on AI in forums here and it's pretty revamped. Which is great... buuuuut... it's revamped... vision... what vision we working toward?

 

[Drithyl]

I don't see how Minecraft ignoring modders fits the conversation. Not meant to be a snarky response. I genuinely don't understand. The point I was making in my statement was that Minecraft built its way up to provide more and more ways to play. It didn't really go through much (and I'm having to recall way way back so I could be off) game play restricting releases.
Meaning, they provided features that would typically let you do more. Not features that let you do less.

And Omega-Factor mentioned this was like "Minecraft with guns". I deliberately kept the minecraft comparison out of my original post. Specifically because of your question "Why does the game have to be describable by other games?". Sure. lol. I wanted to bring up the Minecraft bit. But before I posted I double checked their Kickstarter page and the Steam Store page to be sure if they have Minecraft comparisons worded into the game description. Which, I couldn't find. So I didn't bring it up in my initial post.

You just mentioned that Minecraft gave modders freedom as a counterpoint to 7DtD being a Minecraft with guns, so I felt the need to point out that this only happened late in development.

The systems are being revamped precisely to allow for more freedom. The buff system was already described as both lighter and with many more options; the gun system now has attachments, and more attachments will be able to be modded in, etc. When full release is out, I'm sure it'll be very clear that the developers did indeed put in time to give more and more freedom and options to players.

 

[Xeen]

I support your decision to make a mod. You obviously only care about server play. I am a SP local player who wants nothing from your opinion on underground threats, and I will be very dissatisfied with the idea of having to fight random worms or toxic gasses when I am collecting my resources for my Aboveground base applied to all gameplay from the devs. I like the idea of the regular zeds pounding downwards just as well as sideways. I don't care for your witch hunt of MP exploiters affecting my gameplay.

Yep which TFP fully supports through modding.

No matter which way the final version of the game shakes out you will be able to modify the game to suit your play style, you yours and me mine.

 

[Jackelmyer]

You just mentioned that Minecraft gave modders freedom as a counterpoint to 7DtD being a Minecraft with guns, so I felt the need to point out that this only happened late in development.
The systems are being revamped precisely to allow for more freedom. The buff system was already described as both lighter and with many more options; the gun system now has attachments, and more attachments will be able to be modded in, etc. When full release is out, I'm sure it'll be very clear that the developers did indeed put in time to give more and more freedom and options to players.

In some instances, like the revamped buff system, yes, that gives more freedom.

But the repeated pounding that people shouldn't be able to base build a certain way. Shouldn't be able to game the system a certain way. Talking out one side of their neck one thing, then out the other side of their neck, and pause.

Specifically Roland...

Talking out one side of his neck that people shouldn't play a certain way, build a base a certain way, game the system a certain way. While out the other side of his neck he's saying that he's looking forward to the changes that make you build a new... certain way... a new... way to play the system... looking for new ways to game the system... which... is what all games ever have been all about.

What is a game?

A series of rules that you learn to overcome. As an enjoyable experience.

I.E. You learn to game a system while having fun doing it.

Sure. There's limits to that. Just because Solitaire IRL lets you pick up a card and put it down, doesn't mean you can just pick up any card and put it anywhere you like.

Buuuut... Yeah... Take a look at my original post, reference below...

... edited ... Figure out what game your making... And just balance it. ... edited ...

 

[Chancer0076]

But most games go through that. You just don't see it because they're not all early access.

This, this is what I was going to say. It is a very valid point.

Playing early access games is a double edged sword though... for me, every time a new alpha comes out, it's like a reboot with new features and sparks my interest in the game again. For the time in between getting bored of it and the new alpha coming out - there are mods. The flip side of this is that we run the danger of being bored of a game before it's even fully released.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Yep which TFP fully supports through modding.
No matter which way the final version of the game shakes out you will be able to modify the game to suit your play style, you yours and me mine.

That is not accurate. And in fairness, you should be able to mod in more restrictive (threats add restriction) situations. It shouldn't be that people have to mod them out.

And the inaccurate aspect is, no, you can't mod everything. And if you say people should learn how to disassemble a DLL and recode it to work as they like... duuuuude... you really should learn more about consumers.

There is desire to provide more mod abilities as stated by TFP. It's not a promise. They've been incredibly careful promises since really their Kickstarter. So no. TFP does not fully support modding this.

If they implement an feature on a zombie you don't like, you have to remove the zombie. I can't mod the zombie itself.

If they implement an environment feature I can't mod it out. I.E. temperature management by zone. or radiation in the outlands (best relation to a toxic gas pocket).

Maybe I want worms, but I don't want them constantly digging through my walls. I can't mod out their pathfinding and spawn points in random world spawning.

no.... TFP does not fully support this through modding.

 

[Drithyl]

In some instances, like the revamped buff system, yes, that gives more freedom.
But the repeated pounding that people shouldn't be able to base build a certain way. Shouldn't be able to game the system a certain way. Talking out one side of their neck one thing, then out the other side of their neck, and pause.

Specifically Roland...

Talking out one side of his neck that people shouldn't play a certain way, build a base a certain way, game the system a certain way. While out the other side of his neck he's saying that he's looking forward to the changes that make you build a new... certain way... a new... way to play the system... looking for new ways to game the system... which... is what all games ever have been all about.

What is a game?

A series of rules that you learn to overcome. As an enjoyable experience.

I.E. You learn to game a system while having fun doing it.

Sure. There's limits to that. Just because Solitaire IRL lets you pick up a card and put it down, doesn't mean you can just pick up any card and put it anywhere you like.

Buuuut... Yeah... Take a look at my original post, reference below...

If you're referring specifically to the whole controversy of zombies being able to dig, well, that doesn't prevent anyone from building whichever way they want. It just fixes an AI flaw which is very basic. People aren't losing the ability to make underground bases at all.

As for Roland, I just see a human being like us with his own opinions. Maybe you feel that he's trying to tell you how to play just because he's a moderator, but as far as I'm concerned, he's just giving his views, like everyone else. If he's called out for telling people how to play, then everyone else on this forum with an opinion on the game should be called out just the same.

If they implement an feature on a zombie you don't like, you have to remove the zombie. I can't mod the zombie itself.If they implement an environment feature I can't mod it out. I.E. temperature management by zone. or radiation in the outlands (best relation to a toxic gas pocket).

Maybe I want worms, but I don't want them constantly digging through my walls. I can't mod out their pathfinding and spawn points in random world spawning.

Man, any new feature they implement, anyone could say this. That doesn't mean your freedom is restricted. If you don't like it whenever they add something, then 7DtD would have stayed in Alpha1 without evolving because every time a feature is added, people would want to remove it. Sure, the game isn't 100% moddable (not many games are). We will see if the devs do make it more moddable as it progresses. They have mentioned numerous times that it's what they want to do.

 

[Jackelmyer]

If you're referring specifically to the whole controversy of zombies being able to dig, well, that doesn't prevent anyone from building whichever way they want. It just fixes an AI flaw which is very basic. People aren't losing the ability to make underground bases at all.
As for Roland, I just see a human being like us with his own opinions. Maybe you feel that he's trying to tell you how to play just because he's a moderator, but as far as I'm concerned, he's just giving his views, like everyone else. If he's called out for telling people how to play, then everyone else on this forum with an opinion on the game should be called out just the same.

Okay... what you call a flaw, many others have defined as a desirable feature. And it's not just that.

And again, you're going down the wrong path of what my original point is while being one of the people who doesn't have the right to tell others how to play. Who are you people?

But enough of that... My original statement stands.

... edited ... Figure out what game your making... And just balance it. ... edited ...

 

[art336]

You sure? Minecraft had underground terrain. Minecraft allowed you to play as you want. Minecraft let modders restrict and alter game play. Minecraft was built, literally to provide you a foundation to do what you wanted. Not restrict what you do.
I'd say it's more Fallout with digging than Minecraft with Guns. But who really knows at this point. The most we get in direction tends to be Rolands opinions on how the game should be played.

Oh, and here I thought it was Fallout with building humongous skyscrapers and skybridges. There's digging in 7dtd? Huh, who woulda thought. Since being at max height currently is just as effective as being underground, most of us have built large sky palaces. I didn't even know you could dig.

I can play aboveground, I can play below. I can play in the sky, I can play on a river. I can never make a base, but just run around and kill zombies. I can build elaborate kill boxes. Modders can and do change things in this game, have you played some of the mods? What's the one that you can't upgrade wooden frames without building a construction kit? That is restricted.

This game was built, literally, on the Minecraft engine. So it is Minecraft....with sixteen alphas worth of improvements.

But who really knows at this point? The devs do. You and I we don't have a clue...But I'll admit it.