PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Cazmyr]

Progress takes time. Always.

Absolutely, always.

But in a game it needs to be balanced. It can't be tedious or overly burdensome or it will no longer be fun.

People leave games for all kinds of reasons and progression systems/ crafting systems that are so slow that it feels like there is no progress made is one of them.

I happen to not mind slower progress. I like Undead Legacy for example, but there is a line and finding that line is no easy task.

 

[The Gronk]

What issue? The question was if you have a ground level base of concrete on dirt floor would the zombies dig under the concrete instead of going through the concrete. The answer is no.
If you are in a basement under the dirt floor and the zombies detect you then they from what faatal said they still would probably bash through the concrete and then dig down through the floor once they are almost directly above you. Zombies on the other side of your base wouldn't dig diagonally down through the earth to come at you sideways in your basement. They would move sideways above ground and then dig vertically once above you.

Depends on whether the trigger is simply height or the actual angle between you and the zombie. I can see a situation where you nip into the basement to get some fresh ammo and this triggers the digging behavior. Although you've only been below the limit for a few seconds there are now several zombies starting a mining chain under your wall.

 

[Guppycur]

I stand corrected
Looks like the OP has their wish, for free. Ridiculously detailed textures and a free high-def texture pack in the works.

Oh, don't be fooled; the atlas is 8096, but the largest textures are only 1024... most are 512, with a lot of 256's (and maybe even some 128's).

 

[Zadwanaa]

Depends on whether the trigger is simply height or the actual angle between you and the zombie. I can see a situation where you nip into the basement to get some fresh ammo and this triggers the digging behavior. Although you've only been below the limit for a few seconds there are now several zombies starting a mining chain under your wall.

depends on how deep your basement is... and if theyve got augers, you'll be fine!

 

[Guppycur]

I think bears are a big miss because they don't stand up to rake you with their powerful claws as you're on some stairs plunking them in the head with arrows because their heads are stuck in a door (and thus their paws are).

 

[Roland]

Depends on whether the trigger is simply height or the actual angle between you and the zombie. I can see a situation where you nip into the basement to get some fresh ammo and this triggers the digging behavior. Although you've only been below the limit for a few seconds there are now several zombies starting a mining chain under your wall.

I see what you are saying and as you mentioned in your other post there are always going to be unintended behaviors that seep through but faatal has also mentioned that pathing is checked every 10 seconds? So if they started digging down once the pathing check ran they would then reorient on your new position.

Worst case is if they couldn't detect you after you emerged from the basement they would keep digging until the memory timer ran out and then they would go out of attack mode and stop bashing blocks altogether. Of course, this could all get buggered up by unintended behaviors that creep out of the code.

 

[Roland]

@fataal. I was reading through the AI thread (Holy heck Roland, well done putting that together!). One thing I was wondering is in the Zombie targeting logic. Is depth of blocks considered when pathing to a location, in "destroy mode", and choosing a block target? I don't know the names of the modes you have, but I saw you mentioned a wandering mode that block destruction wasn't allowed.
Reason I ask this, is I swear there were some exploit(ish) base build styles that used the Door targeting priority to essentially mess with Zombie AI and Pathing.

I'm guessing no, or at the very best, minimal depth and overall health of depth checking at best could be implemented. Just wondering if we're reintroducing behavior that was "resolved" at one point.

Thanks!

faatal said that the block breaking targets are the three blocks stacked in front of them. Normal priority is 2nd block (at their torso level), 1st block (at their leg level), and then 3rd block (at their head level) and this is modified by weakness of the block. So if you have concrete on the ground wood on top of that and a window on top of that they would break the window and then the wood block and then jump up to walk through that 2-block opening. But if you had wood on the bottom, then window, then concrete they would break the two bottom ones and walk through.

It seems to me that the new pathing AI will negate the "Door honey-pot" strategy because zombies won't just go for doors for the sake of going for doors. They will go for the player through the weakest obstruction in their sight range. So they will still choose doors over walls but sticking a door and a gas barrel in a field six meters out from your base isn't going to attract them anymore as those doors are not between them and your brains.

 

[meganoth]

Israeli forces cannot detect Palestinian tunnels under the border, but yes, zombies can detect you 60 blocks below the surface.
What happens if my entrance is a mile away?

Maybe you should reread that part in my post about the digging superpowers the player has or about approximation. In reality you would have no mile, no 60 blocks if you dug alone for 1 or 2 weeks. Palestinian forces had an army and machines(?) to work (how long? weeks? months?) and had an entrance faaaar away from the isrealis. The game approximates or shortcuts this "finding the entrance" because it can't (EDIT: or rather doesn't want to) really simulate it correctly. And that is because zombies outside of your perimeter despawn or don't exist at all.

TFP use a simple algorithm to make you feel you are in a world of zombies. So they only simulate the zombies which are near you. If they wanted to simulate zombies which could find your entrance holes miles away they would either need to simulate zombies everywhere (good bye to your fps) or maybe actually try to detect your entrance holes and make spawn points around that. Or they could just leave you with the decision to either accept this as an approximation of what the zombies really would do or accept superpowers in zombies too.

Intelligence got Saddam, he was not detected by a device. When they make those discoveries it is because of intel, not devices able to find the tunnels. Not even dogs can

How do you know? Did they try? Did they train a few hundred dogs for that? Did the dogs have a chance in that scenario? In a city of a hundred thousand people you need to give a dog something from the person who frequents the exit (which is probably not Sadaam himself) or he doesn't know which one you want to find. So did they know who this person was? How many dogs do you need to find a single spot in a city in acceptable time? Was it politically opportune to go into ALL private houses of the whole city with their dogs and sniff every corner?

In the zombicalypse the tables are turned exactly around. You have thousands of smell-sensitive zombies running around (well, only the ones near you are simulated, but still they are thought to be there) and they are looking for any living creature, not a specific person. So they are not distracted by other living persons or need a sample of your smell, no, any scent of a living person is accepted.

 

[Aldranon]

I'm looking forward to vertical and horizontal warfare.

Walls for above ground bases are vertical, so zombies need to attack horizontally.

Walls for below ground bases are horizontal, so zombies need to attack vertically.

So now you and the zombies can be considered somewhat like fighter aircraft.

You can make So. Many. Strategies!

That's all I'm saying on that until I can start playing.

****Formally Offers to play test the AI in a most serious and business like manner! I will do my best to enjoy myself as little as possible!****

You believe me, right?

 

[The Gronk]

I see what you are saying and as you mentioned in your other post there are always going to be unintended behaviors that seep through but faatal has also mentioned that pathing is checked every 10 seconds? So if they started digging down once the pathing check ran they would then reorient on your new position.

There we have an exploit. Keep popping up and down the ladder and the zombies will spend all of their time traveling between your wall and their mine, not actually having time to attack anything and giving you plenty of time to shoot them on the way.

 

[Zadwanaa]

wait, someone used a real-life example about digging and compared it to a game with zombies? sure.

also, will there be a boss zombie who has retained a small amount of basic intelligence who can command the other zombies? we need some of those

 

[faatal]

Interesting, so if you had a concrete base/wall on ground level with a dirt floor will the zeds just dig under your wall? And with the new pathing are they smart enough to dig a ramp/jump-able ledge to get back up into your base or will they just end up digging a pit to bedrock because they can't get back up?
Either way I'm up for the additional challenge.

To dig under a wall, they would have to dig 2 blocks down, then the next low/medium blocks x2, then the next medium (chest high) block, then 2 jumps to get out and that is provided there are not upper blocks they would have to destroy. I'm not planning on making them do all of that.

 

[Zadwanaa]

To dig under a wall, they would have to dig 2 blocks down, then the next low/medium blocks x2, then the next medium (chest high) block, then 2 jumps to get out and that is provided there are not upper blocks they would have to destroy. I'm not planning on making them do all of that.

make them farm the mats for steel shovels and have 'em dig and build their own pit base to gank players!

 

[Death2gnomes]

Generic zombies are the threat, not the reward.

Wait, what? Since when?

 

[faatal]

Oh, don't be fooled; the atlas is 8096, but the largest textures are only 1024... most are 512, with a lot of 256's (and maybe even some 128's).

Gold star! I was waiting for someone to figure that out, since I'm not going to point out every little detail with how this stuff works.

 

[Death2gnomes]

It's still a hacky approach to require an external / 3rd party program.
The most the player should be expected to do is clicking "I want that" in the Steam Workshop.

They may need to be some way to force a different load order but even that could use an intelligent default when modders get to leave a load order preference in a file somewhere.

Oblivion was a major headache to get the right load order...please make it simpler.

 

[Aldranon]

Wait, what? Since when?

Since they became smart. I think I can use that against them, but I will need to wait and see.

 

[The Gronk]

Gold star! I was waiting for someone to figure that out, since I'm not going to point out every little detail with how this stuff works.

So no chance of a truly high-def texture pack? That's gonna annoy at least two people.

 

[Roland]

There we have an exploit. Keep popping up and down the ladder and the zombies will spend all of their time traveling between your wall and their mine, not actually having time to attack anything and giving you plenty of time to shoot them on the way.

I think we are perceiving this in two different ways and it probably can't be resolved until we can actually get in there and play it and see whether the zombies can be gamed as you describe. I'm having a hard time understanding how you are shooting zombies that are outside your base while you are running up and down a ladder inside your base. And then where is your ladder? Against the near wall where the zombies are or in the middle of your base? If against the near wall the zombies at your far wall won't care about you going up and down and if in the middle then none of them will.

Experimental is going to be full of exactly that.

 

[The Gronk]

I think we are perceiving this in two different ways and it probably can't be resolved until we can actually get in there and play it and see whether the zombies can be gamed as you describe. I'm having a hard time understanding how you are shooting zombies that are outside your base while you are running up and down a ladder inside your base. And then where is your ladder? Against the near wall where the zombies are or in the middle of your base? If against the near wall the zombies at your far wall won't care about you going up and down and if in the middle then none of them will.
Experimental is going to be full of exactly that.

I usually have alternating thick and thin pillars which allow me to shoot through and collect loot relatively safely. There's also a ladder running through the middle of the base that runs from the basement to the roof.

Yeah, I'll be interested to see how it works in practice after all of this speculation and supposition.