PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[JaxTeller718]

Guns being simplified? What drugs you on, brah?
Now:

* The same four gun parts repeated for each specific gun that do nothing but craft the gun

* Crosshairs that are largely meaningless

* My yellow quality shotgun is exactly the same as your yellow quality shotgun

* Looting a crate might yield a hunting rifle stock that can only be used to assemble a hunting rifle.

* Assembling and upgrading guns consists of finding parts and improving quality by swapping out parts with those that are higher quality. "Quality" is an abstract value that affects damage and durability

Next:

* Dozens of unique gun parts that enhance different aspects of your weapon and that can be used for whatever weapon you own

* Crosshairs that dynamically reflect your ability to aim and hit your target

* My yellow quality shotgun is unique and personalized and there is the potential for dozens of different yellow quality shotguns all depending on the combination of mods added to those shotguns.

* Looting a crate might yield a hunting rifle with a random mod attached that can be removed and applied to a different gun.

* Upgrading guns consists of finding a wide variety of parts and improving quality and abilities of guns. "Quality" is defined by many attributes including reload speed, magazine size, fire rate, accuracy, and more.

Well I for one could take or leave different crosshairs. I already see the simplification by putting health bars on the screen so for me the idea that getting a mod to a gun that shows me more specific crosshairs, or widens the crosshair doesn't do much for me and thats just a preference so we can chalk that up for now.

These mods you are talking about? How many are there? We talking 10-15? Or 3-5? Because extended magazines, scopes and silencers add variety yes, but when we talk about attributes like accuracy, scope distance, durability etc that's what parts do now. So if I understand this right, each gun has a stat to them, and depending on quality of the gun the stat is effected.

Ok that's also what we have now. Youre saying that the landscape is broken wide open by the addition of these mod pieces, but I still don't really see how it's as complex or immersive as the parts system? Because you get a silenced weapon or an extended mag? Well i know its not in vanilla, but that's something we have been doing for years now WITH gun parts included.

Unless we are talking 20 different modifications for every single gun that can be attached, how is adding a silencer to the barrel "part" any different than adding a barrel to the barrel part? And why couldn't there be attachments on TOP of the gun parts. Now THAT would make for some crazy combinations of stats if each part held a stat, plus the bonuses from the attachments? It would be a stat lovers dream and it would give the player a lot more control over his weapons.

It could be that I am missing something. I guess I am trying to see the need for removing the entire parts system in favor of mods. The only way I see it as a better choice is if there are dozens of mods you can collect and add to the weapon. if this is the case then I am probably wrong in my assessment. But if there are only 5 attachments (extend mag, scope, laser sight, crosshair, stocks) then they system defaults to being simpler.

 

[Gazz]

And why couldn't there be attachments on TOP of the gun parts. Now THAT would make for some crazy combinations of stats if each part held a stat, plus the bonuses from the attachments? It would be a stat lovers dream and it would give the player a lot more control over his weapons.

Even if the parts had had randomised stats - there weren't enough stats to have you make a choice. 90% of a weapon's value was in the damage number. Anything else was "whatever".

The gun parts have never succeeded at their task of creating stat variations. They should have been cut long ago.

Some people make it sound as if gun parts had been any kind of gameplay system - they were not. It was pure micromanagement with zero choice involved.

How the mods would work was discussed in many meetings. Deciding to toss the old system out took a minute at best. It was that bad and we're absolutely positively not going back.

Mods are a completely different setup.

Now if you want to create a game mod to reduce gameplay/choice you still can!

Add a "pistol barrel" mod that is the only one with a damage component. You must have that mod or the pistol will be completely useless.

It's totally realistic - and terrible game design. (7DTD is not a firearms construction simulator. Just a reminder.)

Nothing stops you from doing so and there is even a tag system so you can decide which mods are shared between which weapons.

 

[DaVegaNL]

I again have to agree with Jax here. The whole system surrounding guns is being simplified.. Uh, I mean, overhauled. Uh, I mean streamlined.

 

[Maharin]

task list: "1st page"ohh... but they are editing it all the time if im correct. so they only edit it, after things are done or nearly rdy. i tought there is an another site where we can track what they are doing. task, to task. bcz the 1st page is just shows a bunch of things, an we have no idea about the workhours / what is done already

Do you really expect them to turn in their time cards to you or something?

 

[DaVegaNL]

Even if the parts had had randomised stats - there weren't enough stats to have you make a choice. 90% of a weapon's value was in the damage number. Anything else was "whatever".The gun parts have never succeeded at their task of creating stat variations. They should have been cut long ago.

Some people make it sound as if gun parts had been any kind of gameplay system - they were not. It was pure micromanagement with zero choice involved.

How the mods would work was discussed in many meetings. Deciding to toss the old system out took a minute at best. It was that bad and we're absolutely positively not going back.

Mods are a completely different setup.

Now if you want to create a game mod to reduce gameplay/choice you still can!

Add a "pistol barrel" mod that is the only one with a damage component. You must have that mod or the pistol will be completely useless.

It's totally realistic - and terrible game design. (7DTD is not a firearms construction simulator. Just a reminder.)

Nothing stops you from doing so and there is even a tag system so you can decide which mods are shared between which weapons.

You're not really convincing, I'm sorry to say. Gun parts did succeed at creating stat variations. The best part created the best stat. How will this be any different with mods? Will certain mods negatively impact some stats? If so, then good! If not, then it's the same system with the original gun parts.

 

[meganoth]

Even if the parts had had randomised stats - there weren't enough stats to have you make a choice. 90% of a weapon's value was in the damage number. Anything else was "whatever".The gun parts have never succeeded at their task of creating stat variations. They should have been cut long ago.

Yes. But it will be interesting to see how you can avoid these pitfalls with the mod system. Because damage still will be the defining value of a weapon. The parts system had no choice but at least every part contributed to the damage value meaning it was always possible to find a part that could improve your weapon.

I for one welcome our new mod overlords. But mods will only be better if you really drop any semblance of realism and go full "borderlands" style. I.e. let magazines or laser targetter have damage stats or (positive or negative) health bonuses for example, even if it makes no sense.

Otherwise I don't see where choice comes into play if the magazine mod slot just allows to put in magazines of different sizes. Obviously biggest magazine would win. (Choice into which weapon to put it is not really a choice in 99% of situations a player is in)

 

[Maharin]

You're not really convincing, I'm sorry to say. Gun parts did succeed at creating stat variations. The best part created the best stat. How will this be any different with mods? Will certain mods negatively impact some stats? If so, then good! If not, then it's the same system with the original gun parts.

You completely missed the important parts... under the current system all four gun parts had only one purpose and that was to affect the overall quality of the weapon. And that overall quality affected one stat: the damage of the gun. That's it.

With the new system you have a gun and mods. The mods could affect anything about the gun and possible affect the player as well. So maybe a gun is particularly heavy yet damaging with all the mods attached so when you have it selected and in your hands your stamina drops at a faster rate. Maybe a mod extends the barrel of the gun so it fires with greater accuracy. Maybe it has some big thing on the top of it that makes it easier to target and kill things while on the run. Who knows... there are so many new possibilities with this new system that I'm completely amazed that people are condemning it at all.

 

[Maharin]

Yes. But it will be interesting to see how you can avoid these pitfalls with the mod system. Because damage still will be the defining value of a weapon. The parts system had no choice but at least every part contributed to the damage value meaning it was always possible to find a part that could improve your weapon.
I for one welcome our new mod overlords. But mods will only be better if you really drop any semblance of realism and go full "borderlands" style. I.e. let magazines or laser targetter have damage stats or (positive or negative) health bonuses for example, even if it makes no sense.

Otherwise I don't see where choice comes into play if the magazine mod slot just allows to put in magazines of different sizes. Obviously biggest magazine would win. (Choice into which weapon to put it is not really a choice in 99% of situations a player is in)

But things like fire rate, draw time (how long it takes you to ready the weapon), range, accuracy, capacity, ... Point is there are a LOT of things you can mod a gun for and that isn't even getting into attachments like light sources (maybe a black light option to use on ferals?) and whatever. Maybe you have an extra magazine of bullets on the side of the gun so you get to fire twice the number of bullets with only a slight delay. The modders are going to have a field day with this system.

 

[Aldranon]

Yes. But it will be interesting to see how you can avoid these pitfalls with the mod system. Because damage still will be the defining value of a weapon. The parts system had no choice but at least every part contributed to the damage value meaning it was always possible to find a part that could improve your weapon.
I for one welcome our new mod overlords. But mods will only be better if you really drop any semblance of realism and go full "borderlands" style. I.e. let magazines or laser targetter have damage stats or (positive or negative) health bonuses for example, even if it makes no sense.

Otherwise I don't see where choice comes into play if the magazine mod slot just allows to put in magazines of different sizes. Obviously biggest magazine would win. (Choice into which weapon to put it is not really a choice in 99% of situations a player is in)

Modding the bullet would be the largest damaging "buff" then the barrel being long enough the maximize it's velocity.

Everything else is reliability, comfort and accuracy.

In other words: Boring.

So I'll take some weapons like Borderlands 2, it was fun. Altho the shortage of ammo in 7D2D has always been too extreme to have fun with guns IMO.

 

[Guppycur]

I again have to agree with Jax here. The whole system surrounding guns is being simplified.. Uh, I mean, overhauled. Uh, I mean streamlined.

Totally disagree, but I think it comes down to how we are interpreting the system differently. I see way more possibilities than with the current system.

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@meganoth that's exactly how it will be.

 

[Janna3921]

I'm not going to pass judgment on the guns until I see what all is being added and taken away. I'm just tired of opening a safe and finding parts, and more parts. We have guns in our home. Not parts, my dad over 20 guns in his home, not parts (not counting scopes). He had boxes of ammo, not just three or four bullets.

Personally, I don't see a need for several types of guns, a couple of rifles, couple of pistols. Who wants to carry two or three rifles, ammo for each, a pistol and ammo for the pistol? That is eight slots taken up. Watch videos and you will see a player doing so, yet run out of water or be overheating/freezing because they didn't want to take up space.

But, that is me; others don't mind so if they want that choice they are the ones who have to carry it all. But I go looting and open safe after safe and find short barrels, long barrels, receivers, and on and on of parts that are a waste of my time and space. Have completed weapons and some parts, higher level/perks can get higher levels of guns and parts. But getting those levels maybe needs to be reworked so a player in week two can't get the purple guns and pistols.

Just my opinion.

 

[unholyjoe]

Spoiler

I'm not going to pass judgment on the guns until I see what all is being added and taken away. I'm just tired of opening a safe and finding parts, and more parts. We have guns in our home. Not parts, my dad over 20 guns in his home, not parts (not counting scopes). He had boxes of ammo, not just three or four bullets.

Personally, I don't see a need for several types of guns, a couple of rifles, couple of pistols. Who wants to carry two or three rifles, ammo for each, a pistol and ammo for the pistol? That is eight slots taken up. Watch videos and you will see a player doing so, yet run out of water or be overheating/freezing because they didn't want to take up space.

But, that is me; others don't mind so if they want that choice they are the ones who have to carry it all. But I go looting and open safe after safe and find short barrels, long barrels, receivers, and on and on of parts that are a waste of my time and space. Have completed weapons and some parts, higher level/perks can get higher levels of guns and parts. But getting those levels maybe needs to be reworked so a player in week two can't get the purple guns and pistols.

Just my opinion.

what!!!! how dare you have an opinion. joking of course and yes you smiled i seen it.

choices are fine and that where it is all going... and my choice and my opinion (see what i did), is i choose a club/spike club - bow/crossbow for hordes. and you know... i have never had any brass or gunpowder issues with that setup.

 

[Tin]

Totally disagree, but I think it comes down to how we are interpreting the system differently. I see way more possibilities than with the current system.
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@meganoth that's exactly how it will be.

IDK, everything I've read about the new system means more things you can choose to build your character, not only with different guns and possible abilities/enhancements they can give but items as well. I didn't read anything that led me to it being simplified.

 

[Haidrgna]

All they need to do is add basic parts to the gun and we will still have gun parts that a weapon is composed off. The basic parts then can be replaced with the modified parts to increase the stats of the gun.

Attachments should go into extra slots that could be tied to the quality or type of weapon.

I really like the gun part system the game has, finding complete guns should not have to exclude finding parts. I use both systems in my modding and it works fine, that is finding a complete gun or finding parts of them. But it also has to technically work well and there might be the problem that it seems to take the place of the old assembly system rather than being added to it.

 

[Guppycur]

IDK, everything I've read about the new system means more things you can choose to build your character, not only with different guns and possible abilities/enhancements they can give but items as well. I didn't read anything that led me to it being simplified.

That's what I'm saying; I honestly don't know where Jax and DeVag are coming from...

 

[Roland]

Well I for one could take or leave different crosshairs. I already see the simplification by putting health bars on the screen so for me the idea that getting a mod to a gun that shows me more specific crosshairs, or widens the crosshair doesn't do much for me and thats just a preference so we can chalk that up for now.

That's because you are thinking in terms of how crosshairs work now instead of how they will work in A17. The size of the crosshairs will not just be an aesthetic difference. If the crosshairs is large then maybe only one in seven shots will land as a headshot. It would be total luck as shots will land anywhere withing the area defined by the crosshairs. If the crosshairs are small so that the entire area is comprised of the head then every shot will score a head shot.

The size of the crosshairs is affected by your skill, perks, weapon, mods, and whether you are moving or standing still. So on day one if you find a purple shotgun and you run around shooting zombies from the hip most likely you will waste all your shells trying to kill one zombie. But if you stop and aim and wait for the crosshairs to shrink in size then you will get more headshots and kill the zombie in fewer shots.

The size and shape of the crosshairs is going to change the gameplay more than you know and it is going to require some major adaptation which means there will be a lot of complaining from those who don't like the change from something that was very simple before to something much more complex in A17.

That is just one component of the new weapon overhaul.

Simplifying my ass....

 

[unholyjoe]

Simplifying my ass....

hey bud, there is no more simplifying your ass and your wife told me that too, she says youre too simple now. j/k

seriously tho...

on each new alpha some people have said its like playing a new game.... guess what they will be saying again when a17 knocks at the door.

 

[Gazz]

seriously tho...on each new alpha some people have said its like playing a new game.... guess what they will be saying again when a17 knocks at the door.

Maybe we should make them buy the next alpha as a new game. Then it would really feel like a new game to everyone!

 

[Maharin]

Simplifying my ass....

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Maybe we should make them buy the next alpha as a new game. Then it would really feel like a new game to everyone!

I'm in... I've more than got my money's worth so far.

 

[unholyjoe]

Maybe we should make them buy the next alpha as a new game. Then it would really feel like a new game to everyone!

i am up for it too... ark charged for some fixes and hid them behind new content.