Adam the Waster
Well-known member
with armor and a bomb on it. its the last boss of the game!
PC Demo zombies damage is stupid...
- Thread starter Haxoonie
- Start date
with armor and a bomb on it. its the last boss of the game!
Adam the Waster
Well-known member
no he has a pet mountain lion, with a Armored vest and spikes. his name is muffin
RipClaw
Well-known member
2-3 blasts are not much if you consider that you get 10-20 demolishers per horde in higher gamestages.
And most likely trigger the explosion.
If you can make AP ammo. You need a book to make AP ammo. The trader also sells AP Ammo but only in small quantities.
The problem here is that you cannot make a base any size. On the one hand, more blocks also mean a greater loss of FPS and on the other hand a large base can cause problems with the pathing of the zombies.
At the beginning of A17 players built so-called labyrinth bases in which the zombies were sent through long corridors. There were several points where the zombies could be shot with guns or you used traps.
But the AI was changed so that the zombies take the shortcut through the wall if the path is too long. So the labyrinth bases became useless because the zombies usually broke through the walls.
Basically it is all about finding a base form that is effective but has a reasonable consumption of resources.
You can defeat any horde if you throw enough resources at it, but it's no fun if you spend most of the week collecting the resources needed for the next horde.
For example, I have a base that works mainly with dart traps and electrical fences. Per horde this base consumes more than 90000 iron. This is not a big problem for me as I have a large production and like to be in the mine. However, if you don't like mining you would not use such a base.
Boidster
New member
So, with the caveat that my base has never been destroyed by a Demolisher, I'd like to say that the above description doesn't seem quite so bad? I'm not arguing that balancing isn't required (again, never had a base ruined by a Demo), but the general idea that
I ARE MINER
and
I LIEK QUESTS
would need to have somewhat different approaches to base designs doesn't seem to be a Bad Thing on its face? I say that as a player who likes mining (but also plays about 70/30 co-op - that is, 70% of the time I'm in the game alone, picking at my rocks and 30% of the time my co-op partner is in game and we're questing or prepping the base for horde night).
If the only way to defeat the Demo is to have a 90,000-iron-eating base, then yeah the non-miner is screwed. But would run-n-gun work? A pit base? Simpler labrynths? What about using concrete as the primary building material, would that be effective if there were several ablative layers to the base? So the non-miner could produce a couple thousand concrete (just sand and rock after all) for repairs and be on his/her way questing or whatever.
Anywho, my point is only that I don't think all base designs - or really all horde-survival techniques - need to be effective for all player types. The quester maybe should NOT be able to build the auto-trapped fortress, but instead must rely on better personal firepower (from all those quest rewards). The miner won't necessarily have the guns, but will have massive resources to repair and resupply ammo.
I dunno, maybe the first time my base is demolished, I'll be back here with **** Duke and **** immersion, get rid of the ******* Demolishers!
I will say that after reading these demo threads, I'm working on a pit base design for horde night. Double-walled concrete pit. If they blow up, eh I've got 10,000 concrete banked away for Day 36.
Ttocs
New member
Im glad you having trouble with them, if they didnt cause trouble there wouldnt be any point adding them to the game. By day 42 you should be pretty locked and loaded anyway. I dont use seperate gun with AP just change my normal ammo on the Mg42 to AP when i see one and focus it. If you hit the c4 its not great but if it didnt have it then itd just be another zombie skin.
Failing that you can edit HP and DMG easily in the xml?
Failing that you can edit HP and DMG easily in the xml?
Since the OP has specifically forbidden any defence of the issue I'll be brief - have not yet encountered anyone having a problem with demolishers which is not down to their own play style and ability.
You can turn down difficulty, slow down time, speed up time, increase or decrease block HP, increase loot, increase airdrops, speed up respawns of stuff and - if it comes to it - mod, roll back or use creative mode. There is no reason why you should be struggling to have the necessary ammo. traps and walls to put up a defense which will hold, or that you should be relying on an unbreakable base in the first place.
There are enough materials and is enough time to cope, and multiple strategies and back up to do so. Problems in this area are almost certainly your settings not suiting your ability or you trying to play a very specific style based on older alpha's, and are refusing or declining to use the new stuff.
In the meantime the Demolishers need balance, and will be balanced as time progresses, but nobody has yet put forward any compelling evidence that they are fundamentally broken - just a lot of players struggling to cope with something new - and every one of them that I have spoken to or read is insisting on making it harder on themselves with settings or rigid playstyle.
You can turn down difficulty, slow down time, speed up time, increase or decrease block HP, increase loot, increase airdrops, speed up respawns of stuff and - if it comes to it - mod, roll back or use creative mode. There is no reason why you should be struggling to have the necessary ammo. traps and walls to put up a defense which will hold, or that you should be relying on an unbreakable base in the first place.
There are enough materials and is enough time to cope, and multiple strategies and back up to do so. Problems in this area are almost certainly your settings not suiting your ability or you trying to play a very specific style based on older alpha's, and are refusing or declining to use the new stuff.
In the meantime the Demolishers need balance, and will be balanced as time progresses, but nobody has yet put forward any compelling evidence that they are fundamentally broken - just a lot of players struggling to cope with something new - and every one of them that I have spoken to or read is insisting on making it harder on themselves with settings or rigid playstyle.
Viktoriusiii
New member
It is kind of amazing... everything you said was a nonargument and could have been shortened to "get gud".
Criticism of design does not equate whining about beeing too hard.
One of the reasons why I hated breaking floors in A16&17 was that there was no warning. No hint. You had to know the spots or you would either break a leg or similar effects.
That does not mean that I was too bad. After 10 hours I knew basicially all POIs so I never fell for it again. That didn't change that it was bad. Every feature that is supposed to challenge the player needs (this is grossly compensated and only to show why criticism is not the same as whining about difficulty):
-a goal (what is that challenge accomplishing; like drive them to explore or give them a reason to build a base; sometimes this reason can be very small like expanding on another system)
-a specific set of rules (if it changes randomly without reason, it becomes frustrating RNG; this does not apply for certain challenges like enemy moveorder (in fighting games) but overall it holds true
-and most importantly, it needs counterplay. A challenge that can not be overcome is unfair. There are different ways to give a challenge counterplay, but I'll cap it here because it is too vast of a discussion.
So when we look at the demolisher:
What is his goal?
To challenge people that 'turtle' behind huge walls that can't be breached with normal zombies anymore.
What are his rules:
He will path the same as other zombies, but if you trigger his C4, he will blow up in a few seconds.
What is the counterplay:
Don't shoot his C4 at all.
Shoot it while he is far away.
If you shot it by accident, kill him before he can blow up.
So now we could conclude that he is well designed. And he is, for the most part, but if we look closer, his counterplay is more or less nonexistent.
"Don't shoot his C4"
Blade traps trigger it, so you cant build those anymore.
Turrets trigger it, so thats not going to work.
Weaponspread of the shotgun always triggers it.
Recoil means that you often hit it by accident with automatic weapons.
So there is only Pistol and rifle left. Pistol doesnt do enough damage and rifle is hard to aim when he is in full sprint, since he often does weird movements. Also you need to kill him before he reaches the wall bc he deals massive blockdamage.
So this isn't a counterplay.
"Shoot it while he is far away"
Probably the only counterplay worthy of the name. But since he is never alone and there will sometimes be multiple or simply other Z's that draw your attention, it is hard to trigger him from far away, since he can run so you need to basicially focus him as soon as he spawns.
Insufficient.
"Kill him before the C4 explodes"
Actually a good idea and a valid counterplay... IF he didnt have 5000 HP and 40% armor. He is too tanky to kill him fast enough when he first spawns. You would need something like a rocket launcher while traps are damaging him. It is possible, but uses up a crapton of ammo and draws attention away from other Z's.
So what he is meant to do:
Breach walls and other defensive lines.
But what he actually does is everything. He draws attention to it, he destroys defenses, he is the bullet sponge of bullet sponges, he is fast enough to reach the walls even when focusing fire on him, and he even deals massive damage without his explosion.
So there is definatly reasons for why you can criticise him. Just because I don't have a problem with him doesnt mean that I cant see the problems he has.
HungryZombie
New member
Nevermind I misread
It is amazing - everything I said is no 'get gud' - an argument I never resort to - rather 'explore the options available to you' - something I have not yet found anyone willing to do who is still making threads and posts like this - will change your experience... have you tried it?
You may think that all these options are non-options; but that's down to you - you are choosing to limit your own options by playing that way instead of using the options the Devs have left open to you.
I never 'learned' the floors - a player can develop a sixth sense, intuition, spot suspicious looking floors or just have fast enough reactions. I did not 'have to know' and you did - that's down to your ability and play style.
There is counterplay to the demolishers - plenty of youtubers and players are using it; the only people I have encountered who have not found a balance are either playing at needless high difficulty, needlessly late game stage or are deciding to limit which traps, guns, strategies and options they are willing to use. Here you go;
electric fences, ramped approaches to blade traps, switch off-able turrets and AP ammo.
Manageable with just electric fences and AP ammo, to be honest.
I'm not saying 'git gud' - I'm saying that getting gud, in combination with multiple other decisions factor in to the difficulty of your game, and so far every person who I've encountered saying the Demolisher needs tweaking, I agree with, but everyone saying it's broken, stupid or needless OP is doing something to make it harder than it needs to be - and that's NOT a design problem, that's just a player having to face the consequences of their ingame choices.
linewalker
Member
have zero issues killing them near base with ak47 or m60
or with using sniper at distance with nvg
RipClaw
Well-known member
If you have to use Creative Mode to be prepared for a horde night, you're either lazy or the balancing is way off. As an average player you should not have to resort to any options when the balancing is spot on.
One problem I see is the demolisher is very surprising for a player who doesn't inform himself. There is a huge gap between the demolisher and other zombies in terms of the damage it does, the HP it has and the massive armor. As a result, players who don't inform themselves are not prepared for what to expect.
Many who are active in this forum read the developer diary and are therefore informed about new developments early. However, this is not the majority of the players. They only read the release notes, if at all.
How this looks like when one or more players don't know what to expect you can see here:
In the multiplayer game a so-called group gamestage is calculated. This can lead to the fact that in the one horde night the group gamestage is below 150 and the next horde night then over 200. You skip the phase in which the player first gets to know the demolisher. Not really a nice surprise if you have multiple demolisher in your horde.
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Yes, that ONE specific thing out of multiple options which I mentioned as a 'if it comes to it' last resort is not ideal, but everything else is there to be explored to a players satisfaction; and if the player has failed to explore those options then it cannot be realistically framed as anything other than a player fail.
As for the ill informed - yeah, some noobs who played Fallout NV headed north and got killed by Deathclaws. Is that stupid? Should Deathclaws be nerfed / removed?
I'm all for the difficulty curve being reasonable - but not for pandering to someone playing blind and then throwing a tantrum because something unexpected happened. We're barely out of the 'prepare to restart your world every week' phase and people are getting precious about having their bases destroyed?
Yes, In multiplayer the problem is magnified, but then so are the players advantages; and the same strategies apply. But the OP was very specific they only wanted discussion of SP so let's stick to that.
AP Ammo, electric fences and balde traps; you'll be fine if you use them right.
DiscipleOfBryan
New member
Wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that Demolishers are severely overpowered in that they render reinforced concrete and Iron Garage Doors (v1, 2.5k hp) utterly useless.
It wouldn't be as bad if, say, the explosion damage were reduced to 4000 and we were able to upgrade Garage Doors to steel or "reinforced iron", granting 4.5k hp (so that Zs still prioritize the door over rConcrete), without the need to utilize Steel Garage Doors which are one-way only due to the need for electricity (unless someone can fill me in on how to make a 2-way, powered, Steel Garage Door?)
It wouldn't be as bad if, say, the explosion damage were reduced to 4000 and we were able to upgrade Garage Doors to steel or "reinforced iron", granting 4.5k hp (so that Zs still prioritize the door over rConcrete), without the need to utilize Steel Garage Doors which are one-way only due to the need for electricity (unless someone can fill me in on how to make a 2-way, powered, Steel Garage Door?)
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RipClaw
Well-known member
I don't see it as a problem that they got rekt because they were playing on a high difficulty but that they didn't know what they were dealing with. These are typical players who just play the game without paying much attention to any written information.
When the demolisher exploded, they didn't know what happened. Also, the players tried to shoot the demolisher with a shotgun, which is completely pointless.
The demolisher is so different from other zombies that it is not possible for an uninformed player to adapt to it or be prepared for it.
An uninformed player does not know that the demolisher deals 5000 explosion damage. He does not know that he deals 5000 damage per hit. He does not know that he has 1000 HP and that his armor reduces the damage by 40%. He does not know that spikes are completely useless against the demolisher and that he simply tramples them down. And most of all he doesn't know that most traps trigger the explosion of the demolisher.
Imagine how an inexperienced player tries to adapt to the Demolisher and fails time and time again. The demolisher must seem like an unstoppable juggernaut to such players. I imagine that this as very frustrating and not very beneficial for the fun of the game.
Prisma501
New member
Ghostlight
New member
Isn't this a contradiction in terms? If we are trying to balance these enemies, the last thing we want is players tampering with mods, XML files or creative mode as a means to handle them. Otherwise how can you balance?? This is why many of us reject the idea of touching the XML or using mods while the game is still alpha....WE are the main testers for TFP and balance is very much part of that testing effort.
No one has said they are fundamentally broken. The main complaints are:
- They take a lot of the fun things in the game off the table when designing defenses (e.g Blade Traps, front-facing Turrets, use of Shotguns)
- They take a lot of fundamentally enjoyable base builds off the table
- They costs too much to fight in terms of the repair/ammo bill following horde night.
- They massively promote exploits as they are easily handled with exploitative base designs.
All of these complaints point to bad design to me, and NOT "fundamentally broken". Anything that greatly limits player choice in a game like this is bad imo.
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Ghostlight
New member
Very very good point. I would add that in multiplayer, it is VERY easy to hit GS 153 for the day 14 horde, even on default difficulty. Most multi-player teams will be nowhere near ready for full engagement of Demolishers by that timeframe.
Workround to avoid Deathclaws: do not head north
Workaround to avoid Demolishers coming on horde night: kill yourself enough to keep GS under 153
Comparable??
I would say the fair number is 2499. That way Iron Bars can take 1 explosion and be left on 1 HP (thus repairable for alert and quick-witted players), and Re-enforced Concrete can take 3 explosions.
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Ghostlight
New member
The other thing about Demolishers is the players' abiity to handle them is very much a function of how many of them come at the same time. One of them is not a massive problem, really, but the danger grows exponentially with each additional one.
When you play multiplayer 7Days, not only is your GS scaled higher for each additional player, but also:
1) MaxAlive setting is per player. If you set this to 24, and play solo, you will have 24 enemies max at a time on horde night. If you set it to 24 and play 2-player, you will have 48 enemies max at a time. This GREATLY increases the chance of multiple Demolishers at one time.
2) Each player gets their own personal horde. So if the total horde for the blood moon is 300 zombies, that's what a solo players gets...300 zombies. On the other hand, 2-players co-op will fight 600 Zombies. Again this further increases the chances of the dreaded multiple Demolisher situation. We have fought 6+ at the same time fairly often. It is not pretty.
When you play multiplayer 7Days, not only is your GS scaled higher for each additional player, but also:
1) MaxAlive setting is per player. If you set this to 24, and play solo, you will have 24 enemies max at a time on horde night. If you set it to 24 and play 2-player, you will have 48 enemies max at a time. This GREATLY increases the chance of multiple Demolishers at one time.
2) Each player gets their own personal horde. So if the total horde for the blood moon is 300 zombies, that's what a solo players gets...300 zombies. On the other hand, 2-players co-op will fight 600 Zombies. Again this further increases the chances of the dreaded multiple Demolisher situation. We have fought 6+ at the same time fairly often. It is not pretty.