PC Demo zombies damage is stupid...

[Grolbu]

I have an underground base - there's a steel lined open-top 4x4 shaft going down to bedrock, at the bottom of the shaft is a 15x15 room on bedrock with a ledge running around it 12 blocks above floor level with 4 SMG turrets pointing down onto the floor at the bottom of the shaft. The working parts of the base are down a side tunnel, and there's a catwalk suspended from the ceiling 2 blocks back from the edge of the shaft. Around the top of the shaft are a row of wedges and a row of wedge tips, and the catwalk is directly under the wedge tips.

So the zombies try to get into the same square as me, which means they walk out onto the wedge tips, and wheeeeeee ... bang bang bang ... no more zombie. My game stage is over 300 and my hordes are set to 64 zombies. On horde nights it basically rains zombies down the hole, including plenty of demolishers.

If I'm playing solo I'll normally turn the turrets on and stand on the catwalk letting the turrets do their thing and only open fire myself for fun or if there are so many Zs they start to stack up towards me. If friends have joined me or I get bored I'll leave the turrets off and we just stroll around the ledge shooting and tossing down mollies and grenades. If demolishers want to blow up they're welcome to. The ledge and catwalk are above the blast radius, they can't damage the floor, they can't reach anything important, the only thing we have to watch for is cop vomit then after the horde jump down into the pit and fill in any holes they made in the walls before something shot them.

It's worked well so far !

 

[zainias]

First time poster, long time player here.

I love the addition of demolishers, but I feel they get beaten too easily to dart traps. I play the hardest difficulty with my two brothers and we don't use cheese tactics. We don't have a trap hole or anything dumb like that, we just have a base entrance surrounded by trenches and thick walls so they pick a main entrance filled with electric fences and dart traps. The darts don't trigger their explosion so they die easily and we dont have to shoot them at all, in fact we just sit there, its kinda boring.

If I were to request any changes it would be to nerf dart trap potency and maybe make them trigger demolishers. Also, I think a combo of the old ai from a16 and new ai would be interesting; a set of zombies that just want to rush towards you and destroy everything in their way, and another set of zombies that try to get to you via the path of the least amount of resistance...that would really force us to change our base design into something multi layered and adaptable.

I don't see the point in cheesing the game, if you really hate bloodmoons you can just fly around in a gyro all night.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I think the main problem is that when they start coming, often too many of them come too fast. A single demolisher isn't that bad at all. A few hordes later, make it a chance for two... and so on.

 

[HungryZombie]

However, if there is only one or two tricks to stop it, the concept is flawed. Then we're back to the days of one or two concepts (stilt base or similar). I have to agree with people stating that the demolisher is simply over the top in its current state.

Fair enough but that is moving the goalposts on my comment. I merely pointed out that saying there is NO way to defend against Demolishers is not really true.

What you are saying may well be true was besides the point.

Happy New Year!

 

[Boidster]

I play the hardest difficulty with my two brothers and we don't use cheese tactics. We don't have [a design that puts zombies in a disadvantageous position] or anything dumb like that, we just have [a design that causes them to] pick a main entrance filled with electric fences and dart traps.

The obsession with "cheese" makes me wonder if most people who play 7D2D are from Wisconsin. There is no "cheese". If you survive the night, it is a good design. TFP gave us a world with zombies; we can defeat them however we want within the rules of that world.

 

[RipClaw]

The obsession with "cheese" makes me wonder if most people who play 7D2D are from Wisconsin. There is no "cheese". If you survive the night, it is a good design. TFP gave us a world with zombies; we can defeat them however we want within the rules of that world.

I agree that the term cheese is heavily overused.

One problem with strategies that use edge cases in the Zombie AI is that a small change in the AI can make it stop working.

The zombie force field from JaWoodle is a good example. As soon as the developers fix the zombie behavior it is ineffective.

Sometimes this can mean that your whole base concept not working anymore. For example, if zombies would attack open doors, the base of Z-Nation would collapse.

 

[ShadesOfKnight]

IMLTHO, Demolishers - like many other "special" zombies - utterly destroy the immersion of the game (pun not intended).

The OP has an excellent point - how did a massive, heavily armored, brute zombie get a suicide vest on them?

Another example of how the devs lost their way from the roadmap - AFAICT, there was never anything in the original roadmap that said "we'll provide zombies you can't kill before they destroy your base."

 

[Roland]

IMLTHO, Demolishers - like many other "special" zombies - utterly destroy the immersion of the game (pun not intended).
The OP has an excellent point - how did a massive, heavily armored, brute zombie get a suicide vest on them?

The Duke is not above creating such monstrosities by equipping them before they are intentionally turned and then unleashing them. That such a thought never crossed your mind shows what a good person you are. Villains like the Duke can be quite beyond our comprehension.

Another example of how the devs lost their way from the roadmap - AFAICT, there was never anything in the original roadmap that said "we'll provide zombies you can't kill before they destroy your base."

1) you again are making the mistake of thinking that every little detail must be included in the roadmap. The list of special infected mentioned in the stretch goal was never meant to be a limit but more of examples of what we would see.

2) you are making a second mistake in thinking that the roadmap is not a living document that has certainly evolved beyond the original publicly shared document. The original still holds true in a general sense but the details of how it is to be done has changed as technology has advanced and testing has proven better ways of doing things.

3) There are two examples posted in this thread that prove that people are finding ways to kill the demolishers before they destroy your base. I’m betting more will come especially as the devs continue to balance and tune the demolishers.

 

[Adam the Waster]

The Duke is not above creating such monstrosities by equipping them before they are intentionally turned and then unleashing them. That such a thought never crossed your mind shows what a good person you are. Villains like the Duke can be quite beyond our comprehension.


1) you again are making the mistake of thinking that every little detail must be included in the roadmap. The list of special infected mentioned in the stretch goal was never meant to be a limit but more of examples of what we would see.

2) you are making a second mistake in thinking that the roadmap is not a living document that has certainly evolved beyond the original publicly shared document. The original still holds true in a general sense but the details of how it is to be done has changed as technology has advanced and testing has proven better ways of doing things.

3) There are two examples posted in this thread that prove that people are finding ways to kill the demolishers before they destroy your base. I’m betting more will come especially as the devs continue to balance and tune the demolishers.

wait i thought the demolishes were Military Ordnance specialist not a Bandit made Monster.

THAT MEANS I CAN GO CRAZY ABOUT IDEAS FOR ZOMBIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LIKE A zombie with gloves/gauntlets with Blades on them and also armored!

Me very happy

:biggrin-new:

 

[ShadesOfKnight]

The Duke is not above creating such monstrosities by equipping them before they are intentionally turned and then unleashing them. That such a thought never crossed your mind shows what a good person you are.

You're very kind, but giving the Duke superhuman powers of prescience (so he knows which victims will mutate into superzombies and which ones will not), and giving the Duke superhuman powers of control (the ability to keep the superzombies from blowing up as soon as they're turned, destroying his own base) is just plain silly.

1) you again are making the mistake of thinking that every little detail must be included in the roadmap. The list of special infected mentioned in the stretch goal was never meant to be a limit but more of examples of what we would see.

Maybe true, but the corollary is also true. Just because they say "crafting will exist" doesn't justify nonsense crafting decisions. Just because they say "there will be zombies" doesn't justify there suddenly being superzombies that have magical powers.

2) you are making a second mistake in thinking that the roadmap is not a living document that has certainly evolved beyond the original publicly shared document.

If this is true, then no one should EVER point at the "easily found roadmap" as justification for ANYTHING... because it evolved privately and by definition that is not an "easily found roadmap." Pick your poison: Either it's easily found and justifies the decisions made, or it's privately edited and we don't get to talk about it.

3) There are two examples posted in this thread that prove that people are finding ways to kill the demolishers before they destroy your base. I’m betting more will come especially as the devs continue to balance and tune the demolishers.

No doubt. Human ingenuity is only exceeded by human stupidity.

 

[Adam the Waster]

You're very kind, but giving the Duke superhuman powers of prescience (so he knows which victims will mutate into superzombies and which ones will not), and giving the Duke superhuman powers of control (the ability to keep the superzombies from blowing up as soon as they're turned, destroying his own base) is just plain silly.

i dont think its "super human powers" i think its more of a psychopath that wants to weaponize the very thing that around him.

think of it like this. he finds someone, chains/ties them up, equip them with some gear bombs, armor , bladed gauntlets etc, infects them in some way (injecting them with infected blood or some other way), drop them off some were when there turning like a pit or cage. repeat

hell sounds like something i would do!

 

[Roland]

You're very kind, but giving the Duke superhuman powers of prescience (so he knows which victims will mutate into superzombies and which ones will not), and giving the Duke superhuman powers of control (the ability to keep the superzombies from blowing up as soon as they're turned, destroying his own base) is just plain silly.

You are the only one ascribing superpowers to the Duke. There are ways he could weaponize people with the zombie virus. We already know there is a serum that started the virus. The picture of the scientist in so many homes is the guy responsible for the outbreak. If the Duke has him who knows what else he has been able to get out of the guy. It just takes a bit of imagination. Of course, if you're against the inclusion of demolishers for whatever reason then it also is easy to refuse to imagine how they came to be and just say, "They don't fit! Scope Creep!!!!!"

Maybe true, but the corollary is also true. Just because they say "crafting will exist" doesn't justify nonsense crafting decisions.

One man's nonsense is another man's fun...

Just because they say "there will be zombies" doesn't justify there suddenly being superzombies that have magical powers.

If they had only said "there will be zombies" you might be right. But they said from the start that there would be special infected and they even listed some examples of what they would add right in their original document. Zombie Cops that vomit block melting acid were in the game from the very start. Screaming scouts and wall climbing spider zombies soon followed. You might as well complain they added an M60 to the lineup of weapons as complain that they added the Demolisher to the lineup of special infected. And as for "suddenly"....Madmole has been talking about adding a tank zombie that does massive structural damage for over 2 years now. There really is nothing suddenly about the Demolishers.

If this is true, then no one should EVER point at the "easily found roadmap" as justification for ANYTHING... because it evolved privately and by definition that is not an "easily found roadmap." Pick your poison: Either it's easily found and justifies the decisions made, or it's privately edited and we don't get to talk about it.

When I look at the original roadmap I don't see any real departure from the stated goals. I don't agree with you that additional content within a category that was mentioned in the roadmap is going outside the scope of the game. You want to say that Demolishers are a sign they've gone far afield of where they started. In my opinion, Demolishers are just enriching the category of special infected that ARE mentioned in the roadmap. They keep the details of what they are adding secret until they choose to reveal them but that doesn't mean the original roadmap isn't generally being followed. And they do resist and deny suggestions for features that are not in their original goals. Animal pets, ziplines, fishing, and procedural caves are examples of major features not in their plan but very much requested. Some of those things they looked into and even started experimenting with but ultimately cut them as being beyond the scope of the game.

 

[Hazeree]

**** Duke and **** immersion. This is a point of about simple game balance. I dont give two ****s about the fact I can carry 20 metric tons of rock in the same space as a stack of paper. A true gamer knows that game mechanics is about making the challenge worth it.

Right now the Demolisher invalidates more than half of the horde defense items put into the game. Thats pretty piss poor game dev right there. And its obvious from your statements that you have an issue with people who build passive defenses, so I can only garner that opinion might be shared with MM as well. Granted, my favorite horde bases are ones where you have to run around like a squirrel juggling between shooting and repairing to just barely keep the horde back.

The problem is as what people have already said. Instead of slowly and creatively building up a defense that handles the increasing pressure laid down by the hordes, you get forced into using the most basic of defenses, or outright exploits.

And dont you dare make the mistake that I havent tried dozens of approaches. I have quite few horde designs that handle these Serious Sam ripoffs. And I didnt lazily come up with them using creative mode. My success and failures have been through standard gameplay and grinding resources.

But as mentioned earlier, all it takes is the kill corridor and 3 blade traps/electric fences, and you can AFK a hundred Demlishers. Or better yet, just dig a hole to bedrock. Who needs to build anything anymore?

3 years and this is what we get. The modders came up with much better designs than this thing.

Again, game balance. The effect on the game by adding this particular element has been to remove the ability to use: turrets, mines, bars, steel walls, concrete, junk turrets, and shotguns. And its direct counter is digging a hole in the ground, or even further exploiting AI.

Good job.

 

[RipClaw]

But as mentioned earlier, all it takes is the kill corridor and 3 blade traps/electric fences, and you can AFK a hundred Demlishers. Or better yet, just dig a hole to bedrock. Who needs to build anything anymore?

I'd be careful with those blade traps. They could trigger the explosion. Besides, they need constant repair.

You can put 1/2 blocks on the floor and place the blade traps at a height of 3 blocks so that they only hit the head of the demolisher. But it sometimes happens that the Demolisher gets knocked over by the blade trap and then stands up floating a block high in the air and gets with the chest into the blade trap which can trigger the explosion.

Blade traps are also very vulnerable to the spit of cops. If you don't constantly repair them, it can happen that the blade traps are destroyed by cops spit.

 

[Boidster]

And dont you dare make the mistake that I havent tried dozens of approaches.

Or what, exactly? Good heavens dial it back a bit, dude.

 

[ShadesOfKnight]

You are the only one ascribing superpowers to the Duke. There are ways he could weaponize people with the zombie virus. We already know there is a serum that started the virus. The picture of the scientist in so many homes is the guy responsible for the outbreak. If the Duke has him who knows what else he has been able to get out of the guy. It just takes a bit of imagination. Of course, if you're against the inclusion of demolishers for whatever reason then it also is easy to refuse to imagine how they came to be and just say, "They don't fit! Scope Creep!!!!!"

It is easy to refuse to imagine it when it requires no imagination and only requires the game itself. If, across all of Navezgane, a player can't find this mythical mechanism that would allow him to weaponize the virus - call it "serum parts," if you really want to fit the game - then the Duke can't either. Imagination is nice, but when it requires one set of global rules for the players and another set of global rules for the imagination, it starts being more "plan 9 from outer space" than any decent kind of imagination.

PS - If I am the only one ascribing superpowers to the Duke, how the heck did I post this under your name: "Villains like the Duke can be quite beyond our comprehension."

One man's nonsense is another man's fun...

True... but the nonsense that sticks is that which is at least consistent to itself - Firefly is a decent example of what I mean about consistency, while Star Wars has become the kind of punchline of something that doesn't.

When I look at the original roadmap I don't see any real departure from the stated goals. I don't agree with you that additional content within a category that was mentioned in the roadmap is going outside the scope of the game. You want to say that Demolishers are a sign they've gone far afield of where they started. In my opinion, Demolishers are just enriching the category of special infected that ARE mentioned in the roadmap.

Then by that logic any sort of fireball-flinging magical lich that MadMole can come up with is just "enriching," not "scope creep." I'm sorry, but that kind of apologetics isn't what I think of when I think of "enriching."

They keep the details of what they are adding secret until they choose to reveal them but that doesn't mean the original roadmap isn't generally being followed.

But it does mean that the "easily found roadmap" is not necessarily a valid argument for what is and is not part of the design. I'd accept that it's someone else's game and we're just living with it - but that means we shouldn't have to hear any defense other than "it's his." The rest is just apologetics.

 

[ShadesOfKnight]

i dont think its "super human powers" i think its more of a psychopath that wants to weaponize the very thing that around him.

think of it like this. he finds someone, chains/ties them up, equip them with some gear bombs, armor , bladed gauntlets etc, infects them in some way (injecting them with infected blood or some other way), drop them off some were when there turning like a pit or cage. repeat

hell sounds like something i would do!

I don't deny it sounds like fun, but in the case of the Demolishers it doesn't make sense. He'd have to strap suicide vests to a lot of people, because he wouldn't know which ones would become tanks and which would be just "normal" zombies, and then he'd have to build a containment facility that defies the rules under which we build defensive structures... Adamantium cages, maybe?

 

[Adam the Waster]

I don't deny it sounds like fun, but in the case of the Demolishers it doesn't make sense. He'd have to strap suicide vests to a lot of people, because he wouldn't know which ones would become tanks and which would be just "normal" zombies, and then he'd have to build a containment facility that defies the rules under which we build defensive structures... Adamantium cages, maybe?

MAGIC duuuuuu

but i really dont know. maybe he hanged them up in the air and strapped it on?

i still believe though that its a military ordnance's worker due to the armor

 

[Boidster]

I don't deny it sounds like fun, but in the case of the Demolishers it doesn't make sense. He'd have to strap suicide vests to a lot of people, because he wouldn't know which ones would become tanks and which would be just "normal" zombies, and then he'd have to build a containment facility that defies the rules under which we build defensive structures... Adamantium cages, maybe?

I was going to snark about your lack of imagination, but lo! There is no lack - look at you go! Maybe he does try his twisted machinations on hundreds or thousands of poor survivors only to get a few Hulking Brutes (as he calls them)! Or maybe he's refined his process to a precursor and an activator, such that if the precursor doesn't produce immediate growth of the subject, the activator is withheld and the test subject is sent for extra irradiation to become a glowing zombie?

Adamantium - good idea! Or maybe the vests have a remote arming system which he activates after he sends his minions on their path, so they are i no danger of exploding until he is safely ensconced with his hairless cat* in his underground lair just outside the border of your world?

*NB: all cats in the zombie apocalypse are hairless, due to radiation, so really The Duke's cat is just a normal cat.

 

[Pichii]

I agree... mostly...I do like the concept of the demolisher. But I already explained why he is not good design, since he is everything:

He is a tank, he has dmg and he has an ability to demolish bases.

He should have one or two of those things. But he is just an all in one boss.

At least they already nerfed him by not letting him explode anymore when he is already dead. So "counterplay" is to kill him quicker then he can detonate. But since he has massive HP and armor, that negates that counterplay.

If there was ever only one of them... but sometimes there is multiple.

So first what I like:

I like the mixup. I like that there can be something that can ruin plans.

I like his looks and I like his detonation dmg.

I also like that he is only coming very lategame, so you should have tools to deal with him (somewhat)

What would I do to fix him:

a - reduce his HP/armor, but increase his speed slightly (more like an urukhai suicide guy in LotR)

b - Make his C4 either easier OR harder to trigger by trap. Somehow you never know if a trap (blade or dart) will or will not trigger it and it is in a weird spot where sometimes he will blow up and sometimes he wont.

z - rework him into a fully blown tank, where he has 5x the hp/armor that he has now, make him 10x slower but leave his melee damage, remove his C4 and give it to something small and nimble that can run at the base with full speed.

I like this the most, but I know they wont ever do something this massive for what they consider "little change".

No troll;

Steel reinforced concrete can take 2-3 blasts from his bomb and still be standing.

Turrets wreck that zombie still.

AP rounds from your firearm FURTHER devistate this creature.

Its more about having multiple layers of fire points rather than building an impermeable wall now.

-Best wishes in your further attempts survivor.