PC Death Debuff - Possible Suggestion - Please Consider and/or Comment!

[Yamamoto80]

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TL: DR at bottom of the post, if you must.

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Hey there Survivors! And Pimps! And Survivor-Pimps...?

My apologies if this has already been brought into the spotlight; I did a few searches of the forums to see what I could find, but alas they are quite large, and after about 15 minutes I decided I would make a quick post.

Back in December when there was a lot of feedback going on regarding the NearDeathTrauma debuff or "Death Debuff" I read an interesting idea from someone commenting on the patch notes. Some players, myself included, aren't terribly fond of it, but like the concept behind it. Death is a persistent reality in 7DTD and in a zombie survival game you should face some consequences/setbacks for dying.

Now, that said... Let's look objectively at this situation; if players are to be penalized for dying in a survival game, can the opposite be true? Rewarding a player for maintaining long periods of survival equally serves as an incentive to play safe and make good choices. With Alpha 17 bringing with it a new specialization system, XP is ever in high demand. It takes quite a bit longer, by design, to hit some of those Milestones (i.e. Iron working, Steel, Munitions, etc.) than in previous Alphas. Some players love it, some hate it, and some don't really mind.

The concept, if you haven't already deduced it, is two-fold; Allow players XP modifiers for good survival practices and longer "time-alive" streaks, while implementing a negative XP modifier for a period of time after the player dies, resetting the modifier to then be worked back up.

Example) After x amount of "time alive" the player's base XP modifier goes from 1 (or 100% of default value) to 1.05 (105% of default value). Zombies, mining, crafting, and anything that yields xp would be at an extra 5% XP gain. Then when the poor player is set upon by unfortunate circumstances, such as a pack of 12 dogs when he or she has no energy (RIP), they lose the progress gained towards their XP modifier and it drops down to X value (a negative value such as .90 instead of 1.0) for X amount of time.

I think this is a simple, albeit effective way to encourage players to play smart while also implementing consequences that don't make them feel like they're "USELESS" for 30 minutes. For me it kinda stinks to think that people have so much fun playing this game, then they die (which is part of the game...) and immediately feel like TFP is kicking them in the balls. I seldom die anymore, even when playing on the higher difficulties, but I do sympathize with the other players.

As for how high the XP modifier can max out at, the negative value that your modifier would drop back to upon death, how long it stays negative, how long it takes before you reach the next "time-alive" bonus/increase, etc. would be worked out by TFP, but I think the idea is worth considering. I would even like it if it became harder and harder to get your modifier to increase (i.e. maybe it takes 2 days to go from 1 to 1.05, but it takes another 3 days to reach 1.10, then 4 days, etc. or a formula that does this instead of increments)

Anyways if you took the time to read all of this babbling then Thank You! I do appreciate it. If you have an idea or opinion on it please share it with the rest of the class

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TLR

Allow players to gain more XP the longer they are alive, and to receive less for a period of time after they die, instead of making them feel "USELESS" with the current Death Debuff. (I say "useless" because you're not really useless, things are more difficult."

EDIT:

Ideas:

"Time-Alive" Corresponds to bonus XP modifier, Negative and Positive depending on recent death(s).

The XP modifier can not be increased until a certain amount of "Time-Alive" has passed, AND the player has accumulated X amount of XP, to prevent AFK sitting in base to get an XP bonus.

Death, and penalties associated with it, should be customizable by the player/server host to allow for more uniquely tailored experiences, not a "one-size-fits-all" solution.

 

[RipClaw]

TLR

Allow players to gain more XP the longer they are alive, and to receive less for a period of time after they die, instead of making them feel "USELESS" with the current Death Debuff. (I say "useless" because you're not really useless, things are more difficult."

I agree that it is usually better to reward someone for the right behavior than to punish them for the wrong behavior.

A counterargument, of course, could be that players then will tend to play a low-risk and rather boring gameplay. However, I believe that players who have fun fighting and looting POIs will always take the risk of losing the bonus instead of being affected in their gameplay.

 

[bdubyah]

I agree that it is usually better to reward someone for the right behavior than to punish them for the wrong behavior.
A counterargument, of course, could be that players then will tend to play a low-risk and rather boring gameplay. However, I believe that players who have fun fighting and looting POIs will always take the risk of losing the bonus instead of being affected in their gameplay.

Eh, as long as it isn't a ridiculous increase, and takes a while to get a decent bonus going it should be fine. Also maybe cap it to 25% or so, no matter how long you live. Besides, it's up to the players on how they will play.

Just don't make it so OP and easy to get that camping your base for a few days will then let you go out and gain way more XP in the following days than you would've already gained had you not camped.

I do think that it is a good idea though.

 

[RipClaw]

Eh, as long as it isn't a ridiculous increase, and takes a while to get a decent bonus going it should be fine. Also maybe cap it to 25% or so, no matter how long you live. Besides, it's up to the players on how they will play.
Just don't make it so OP and easy to get that camping your base for a few days will then let you go out and gain way more XP in the following days than you would've already gained had you not camped.

I do think that it is a good idea though.

It doesn't have to be a big bonus. Just something to show the player what he's doing right. A little reward.

Maybe 1% XP bonus per survived real time hour. Then you have after 10 real time hours a 10% bonus and that could also be the upper limit. That would be identical to the nerdy glasses that give you the exact same bonus just by wearing them.

 

[RestInPieces]

I'd only enjoy a DP that kicks me hard in the balls and makes me feel the pain - no way around it, unfortunately! To appreciate light, you have to know darkness, to enjoy life, there has to be death, *insert generic facebook quote with a sunset background here*, I am on a roll of profoundness today...

In a few non-asinine words, the less painful the DP is, the less value staying alive and every kind of means that help you stay alive have.

What you suggest in fact, is more of a trick of the mind. You feel useless because you have gotten used to being like that. If you had gotten used to getting bonus exp, you wouldn't view what you suggest as a bonus, but as a very annoying penalty as well.

I have no idea why players seem to take the DP personally, as some kind of "punishment" that mean TFP inflicted upon you for being not good enough or something. Take it as a natural consequence. Your normal state, without a penalty, is enough of a reward already.

 

[Yamamoto80]

I agree that it is usually better to reward someone for the right behavior than to punish them for the wrong behavior.
A counterargument, of course, could be that players then will tend to play a low-risk and rather boring gameplay. However, I believe that players who have fun fighting and looting POIs will always take the risk of losing the bonus instead of being affected in their gameplay.

Definitely my thoughts as well, as the game is inherently designed for players to loot and explore. Not everyone does this, per say, since some people thoroughly enjoy building and crafting. But for those playing for the entire experience and not just building, you will almost always be out looting and explore during some points of game play.

Else what are you going to do? Spend ages trying to shoot that annoying bird circling overhead with your plant fiber bow and arrows? xD

 

[Yamamoto80]

Eh, as long as it isn't a ridiculous increase, and takes a while to get a decent bonus going it should be fine. Also maybe cap it to 25% or so, no matter how long you live. Besides, it's up to the players on how they will play.
Just don't make it so OP and easy to get that camping your base for a few days will then let you go out and gain way more XP in the following days than you would've already gained had you not camped.

I do think that it is a good idea though.

As for my main post, I think TFP will/could likely do a lot of balancing with the buff to ensure that players feel they're being rewarded for "Time-Alive" streaks while making sure that it won't provide an increase that offsets the mechanics they've set forth already.

Player's will, of course, look for ways to abuse the system. However one way to deter this may be to implement an XP threshold that has to be met in order to move up to the next bonus in the modifier. This way players will not AFK their games and sit in base for 2-3 days (hours) to achieve a bonus; they will have to earn X amount of XP before the next increase in the bonus unlocks.

 

[Yamamoto80]

I'd only enjoy a DP that kicks me hard in the balls and makes me feel the pain - no way around it, unfortunately! To appreciate light, you have to know darkness, to enjoy life, there has to be death, *insert generic facebook quote with a sunset background here*, I am on a roll of profoundness today...
In a few non-asinine words, the less painful the DP is, the less value staying alive and every kind of means that help you stay alive have.

What you suggest in fact, is more of a trick of the mind. You feel useless because you have gotten used to being like that. If you had gotten used to getting bonus exp, you wouldn't view what you suggest as a bonus, but as a very annoying penalty as well.

I have no idea why players seem to take the DP personally, as some kind of "punishment" that mean TFP inflicted upon you for being not good enough or something. Take it as a natural consequence. Your normal state, without a penalty, is enough of a reward already.

I totally understand where you're coming from! Like I put in my larger post above, I have over 1400 hours (and likely many more to come) of gameplay on 7DTD and as a result I rarely die anymore. That said, I do sympathize with the players who say they feel "useless" because of the Death Debuff since I want everyone else to enjoy playing as well. I love a challenge, and often employ some of Sphereii's mods to make the game more difficult/interesting.

In my opinion, the current Death Debuff and the one I'm presenting both are concepts that are simply interpreted differently by the mind. The main difference is that mine sets a goal for players to work towards with a measurable benefit (i.e. staying alive longer to get a bonus) versus the current Death Debuff which simply inflicts a minor setback. And in a game that is about Survival, I feel that continued survival should be rewarded.

That said, I completely understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with your opinion that "Your normal state, without a penalty, is enough of a reward already". I do appreciate the input, though

 

[RestInPieces]

I totally understand where you're coming from! Like I put in my larger post above, I have over 1400 hours (and likely many more to come) of gameplay on 7DTD and as a result I rarely die anymore. That said, I do sympathize with the players who say they feel "useless" because of the Death Debuff since I want everyone else to enjoy playing as well. I love a challenge, and often employ some of Sphereii's mods to make the game more difficult/interesting.
In my opinion, the current Death Debuff and the one I'm presenting both are concepts that are simply interpreted differently by the mind. The main difference is that mine sets a goal for players to work towards with a measurable benefit (i.e. staying alive longer to get a bonus) versus the current Death Debuff which simply inflicts a minor setback. And in a game that is about Survival, I feel that continued survival should be rewarded.

That said, I completely understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with your opinion that "Your normal state, without a penalty, is enough of a reward already". I do appreciate the input, though

The current DP is only a minor setback indeed (was just talking about it in another thread). And it's true that these concepts are differently interpreted by the mind - mostly because of prior experience. I believe as well that the benefit/penalty aka difference must be substantial. Your xp accumulation idea to get rid of the penalty is pretty insightful too.

However, I believe the penalty must, in some way, be debilitating. Reducing/freezing/nullifying the xp rate, from a buffed or not state, hardly seems like an impactful penalty - merely stalls character progression, without any GS scaling. The DP as it was introduced in 17.0 (half attributes gone when stacking), was pretty impactful/painful for every gameplay aspect. There is surely room though for an even better, more intuitive, but just as impactful way to penalize/reward players.

 

[Yamamoto80]

It doesn't have to be a big bonus. Just something to show the player what he's doing right. A little reward.
Maybe 1% XP bonus per survived real time hour. Then you have after 10 real time hours a 10% bonus and that could also be the upper limit. That would be identical to the nerdy glasses that give you the exact same bonus just by wearing them.

I think the real trick here is make the negative multiplier suck for a period of time, but make the loss of that higher positive multiplier, and the work to reacquire it, REALLY suck. This also shifts the focus off of the "I'm useless because my stats are nerfed" excuse and encourages players to continue pushing on to work back up to where they were.

 

[RipClaw]

I think the real trick here is make the negative multiplier suck for a period of time, but make the loss of that higher positive multiplier, and the work to reacquire it, REALLY suck. This also shifts the focus off of the "I'm useless because my stats are nerfed" excuse and encourages players to continue pushing on to work back up to where they were.

Whatever follows death should definitely ensure that the player is motivated to continue and improve. Punishment usually has the opposite effect.

Especially when the penalty is higher every time, you get blunted and maybe even resigned. The consequence would then be that the players would turn to another game.

There is a good video that analyses how to get players to do what the developers want them to do. It also highlights that punishment is rarely an option and that rewarding the right behavior is much more positively received by players.

There is also an example that resembles your idea. It's about in WoW obviously you get a bonus if you don't play for some time because the developers wanted people to take a break.

 

[Yamamoto80]

The current DP is only a minor setback indeed (was just talking about it in another thread). And it's true that these concepts are differently interpreted by the mind - mostly because of prior experience. I believe as well that the benefit/penalty aka difference must be substantial. Your xp accumulation idea to get rid of the penalty is pretty insightful too.
However, I believe the penalty must, in some way, be debilitating. Reducing/freezing/nullifying the xp rate, from a buffed or not state, hardly seems like an impactful penalty - merely stalls character progression, without any GS scaling. The DP as it was introduced in 17.0 (half attributes gone when stacking), was pretty impactful/painful for every gameplay aspect. There is surely room though for an even better, more intuitive, but just as impactful way to penalize/reward players.

Agreed.

Another important thing to bear in mind I feel is that everyone has a different expectation regarding what they enjoy in terms of "difficulty" and "punishment". Now that I've thought more on it, with regards to your input and mine, it seems unlikely that there will ever be a "one-size-fits-all" solution to this situation. What one person may perceive as outlandishly difficult another may tackle with ease and enjoyment.

Although I know some people may hold this idea with contempt, but allowing players flexibility and customization to choose the level of punishment they receive from death might be the best path forward. Being able to implement or remove multiple settings, and how impactful they are, would likely lead to the best player experience for everyone.....

 

[Yamamoto80]

Whatever follows death should definitely ensure that the player is motivated to continue and improve. Punishment usually has the opposite effect.Especially when the penalty is higher every time, you get blunted and maybe even resigned. The consequence would then be that the players would turn to another game.

There is a good video that analyses how to get players to do what the developers want them to do. It also highlights that punishment is rarely an option and that rewarding the right behavior is much more positively received by players.

Very interesting video. I encourage anyone reading these posts to take a few minutes and watch it. VERY relevant and insightful (and it covers much much more than just World of Warcraft).

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Limdood]

In Subnautica, when you die, you lose any resources you've acquired since the last time you left your base.

- lose some carried items

- respawn in base

In terraria, you lose your carried items and your carried money on medium difficulty.

- your carried items.

- respawn at last bed or world center

In raft you lose your carried items when you die.

- respawn on raft

In Minecraft, you lose your carried items when you die.

- respawn at last bed or random location

In the forest, you get 1 "extra life," after which, dead is dead.

- lose NO items (once)

- "respawn" at a specific location, reflecting being captured (once)

7dtd when you die you lose all your carried items, and your stats are further reduced for in-game time.

- lose carried items

- further in-game penalties to gameplay

- respawn at bedroll

With the exception of the forest, ALL of those other survival games think that simply removing your carried items is enough punishment. The forest doesn't even remove your items (though you can only "die" once, it's cool how it treats "death" as a furthering of the story).

Why does 7dtd need to punish players for dying disproportionately to the other games of the genre? Because people are using death to teleport? So? they can't take any items with them, so the use is really limited. To remove a debuff? why not make broken legs and illness persist through death?

btw, as far as the "reward" goes for staying alive - the framework already exists in game. it's just implemented backwards. Gamestage. Your gamestage is a combination of your level progression and days survived...so why not make gamestage have a benefit. Currently the sole purpose of gamestage is - again, not a surprise in 7dtd - punitive. It's the reflection of an increasing difficulty curve, and since zombies don't drop loot (which i'm fine with...its not the point of the comment, but it does impact it), and higher difficulty zombies don't have PROPORTIONALLY larger xp rewards, this is solely a detriment to progression. Currently gamestage is only SOUGHT to make the game harder through means that are otherwise not available to players, or for bragging rights. Make it a benefit to have lived a long time and levelled up

 

[Katitof]

Why does 7dtd need to punish players for dying disproportionately to the other games of the genre? Because people are using death to teleport? So? they can't take any items with them, so the use is really limited.

Ummm...... you do realize that dropping stuff on death is completely optional and server admin decides on that?

If you think its too punishing, turn item drop on death off.

This is literally how free teleport back to base exploit emerged, you lost literally nothing and saved time.

In these other games, you habe NO options to turn item drop off, in 7d you can do it almost since the beginning.

Death penalty needs to stay, don't like dropping items? Turn it off.

 

[myrkana]

Ummm...... you do realize that dropping stuff on death is completely optional and server admin decides on that?If you think its too punishing, turn item drop on death off.

This is literally how free teleport back to base exploit emerged, you lost literally nothing and saved time.

In these other games, you habe NO options to turn item drop off, in 7d you can do it almost since the beginning.

Death penalty needs to stay, don't like dropping items? Turn it off.

this. and the debuff can be removes/extended/shortened by server admins irc.

 

[Roland]

So my question is this. The game offers the highly punitive "Destroy All on Death" option. Is everyone already playing with that enabled regularly? If not and they are wanting more punitive death penalties why aren't they playing with the worst one we already have? I think all death penalties should be optional so people can choose how afraid they are of death.

Drop Items on/off

Destroy Items on/off

Persistent Buffs on/off

Max HP/Stamina at 50 on/off

Near Death Sickness on/off

Erase World on/off

 

[Limdood]

In these other games, you habe NO options to turn item drop off, in 7d you can do it almost since the beginning.

Subnautica has lower difficulty levels that make death near impossible (or actually so) and the lost items are LEAST significant in that game.

terraria has the option to not lose items on death.

Minecraft has a "keep inventory on death" option.

admittedly, raft does not.

Again, 7dtd punishes DISPROPORTIONATELY to other survival games. You're making a strawman. If people were turning off drop items on death, then they were already saying "we want to play with less punishing death"

The issue is that 7dtd has MORE penalty for death than the survival genre at large, and makes a POINT to allow the same "keep items on death" (but not really...the only vanilla options are drop all, drop backpack, drop belt, delete all...no drop nothing option) that the other games allows, but does NOT offer the option of turning off the death penalty.

why? Is it trying to be "more hardcore?"

Then why go half-assed? make death be final if you insist on it being so nasty.

But if you intend people to continue playing after death, WHY the insistence on punishing players more than dropping items when the other successful survival games don't? And if players are turning off item drops on death - turning OFF the death penalties they have access to - what possible justification is there to including that option, but not letting death penalty be turned off?

 

[Yamamoto80]

So my question is this. The game offers the highly punitive "Destroy All on Death" option. Is everyone already playing with that enabled regularly? If not and they are wanting more punitive death penalties why aren't they playing with the worst one we already have? I think all death penalties should be optional so people can choose how afraid they are of death.
Drop Items on/off

Destroy Items on/off

Persistent Buffs on/off

Max HP/Stamina at 50 on/off

Near Death Sickness on/off

Erase World on/off

Roland! Good to see you! Hear you..? Same thing.

This is slowly the same conclusion I have been coming to as well, the more I have engaged with others on the topic. Regarding my reply to RestInPieces, I do not believe there will be a "one-size-fits-all" solution to this situation. Everyone has their own interpretations of what is Too Hard or Too Easy, and whether they feel like they're being punished or pushed to improve. I feel a customizable way of handling death is the only way players will be able to have their expectations uniquely addressed. There are far too many players with varying expectations to be able to fulfill them all in a singular fashion.

Thanks for popping by and giving some feedback

 

[Roland]

Subnautica has lower difficulty levels that make death near impossible (or actually so) and the lost items are LEAST significant in that game.
terraria has the option to not lose items on death.

Minecraft has a "keep inventory on death" option.

admittedly, raft does not.

Again, 7dtd punishes DISPROPORTIONATELY to other survival games. You're making a strawman. If people were turning off drop items on death, then they were already saying "we want to play with less punishing death"

The issue is that 7dtd has MORE penalty for death than the survival genre at large, and makes a POINT to allow the same "keep items on death" (but not really...the only vanilla options are drop all, drop backpack, drop belt, delete all...no drop nothing option) that the other games allows, but does NOT offer the option of turning off the death penalty.

why? Is it trying to be "more hardcore?"

Then why go half-assed? make death be final if you insist on it being so nasty.

But if you intend people to continue playing after death, WHY the insistence on punishing players more than dropping items when the other successful survival games don't? And if players are turning off item drops on death - turning OFF the death penalties they have access to - what possible justification is there to including that option, but not letting death penalty be turned off?

None of the others have “Die” in their title?