Because that is effectively 1 giant skill tree, and it incentivizes taking the perks from each stat that enhance the sphere of the game you’re focusing on to the detriment of every other sphere. The concept you’re talking about isn’t hard to understand, i just simply don’t agree.
PC Current state of class system
- Thread starter Shijune
- Start date
Roland
Moderator
I don't care who brought it up in the first place. It was you I was quoting and whether Mega brought it up in some misunderstanding of your point, you still responded to him as you did and it was your response that I quoted and spoke to. Why ask the rhetorical question of why can't a sniper be good at farming or why can a sniper be better at finding loot if your point wasn't that such things are ridiculous and shouldn't be? I was answering THAT point which YOU made and maybe you made it in response to someone else but it was definitely you that posted it and you who ended up in my quote box.
How can you not understand that this is exactly what I answered and even gave a couple of modding solutions {that I have no idea are possible or not)? What you are saying when you say you want to cross skill with no wasted points is that you want all combinations of selectable perks to be equal in cost. You don't want it to be more expensive to put sniper together with farming than it is to put sniper together with looting if that is what you want to be able to do. I get it. Everyone is getting it. You just don't like how we are answering I guess and you want to snarl that nobody is understanding what you want.
Its just an economic gate for certain combos and that's it. You can do anything you want but some perk combos are going to be cheaper and others more expensive. That's how I look at it. I decide what I want to do and then I pay the cost. Back in the 90's if I wanted to throw down a card that cost more mana I tapped more land and didn't complain (much) that that card was more expensive to cast than some other one. The way games work is that once you understand the costs for the abilities you want you work at paying those costs and go with it. As I see it the fact that some of that extra cost gives some residual benefit that if I happened to pick up a weapon I wasn't focusing on I might get some little extra boost to that too-- that's a good thing.
They are gates pure and simple. They aren't arbitrary as many of the perks really would be governed by the attribute those gates are named for but some obviously don't fit and needed a home somewhere and I do agree that it can be jarring to the immersion senses. But each gate has a group of perks that if you stick to that gate you will be able to specialize in those particular areas earlier in the game. If you cross over into another gate the cost for mastering your custom group of perks is going to be higher and it will take longer.
BFT2020
Well-known member
It is possible (at least from the brief look I did in the xml file). I was thinking about doing a simple mod (or simply change the xml file) to change the perks around (I looked at making all the weapon perks under Perception and all the melee perks under strength - though I moved Sex Rex to Fortitude and such). There is a lot of changes having to be made and one thing I noticed was the settings on when things unlock. You can make all the perks unlock at lower levels if you want to. I am confident it can be done as some other mods out there already introduced their own perks and even tied them into existing ones.
You can simple change the level the perk unlocks (for example, change all of the Living off the land to the first tier so all of them unlock at the beginning - no need to spec into fortitude at all). Living off the Land has 3 perk levels (one at 1, one at 3, and the last one unlocks at 5). Simply change the 3 and 5 to 1 and see what happens. Though I am more of a computer hack than a computer genius so doing so may break your game
Yes I think removing the attribute requirements for perks would provide a great deal of freedom. And as I said earlier attribute points, if they continue to exist, can serve as a secondary bonus that enhance the character for further customization.
BFT2020
Well-known member
So instead of just talking about it, I made some quick changes to the progression file and made all 3 perks for Living off the Land unlock at level 1. Changed the file and started a new game. Finished the starter quests and got my free 4 points. I was able to unlock all 3 at Level 1. The description still states they are unlocked at levels 1, 3, and 5; but as soon as I placed my first point in the first perk, the second perk was unlocked (same thing for the final perk).
I bet I can also change the description if I wanted to (when they unlock) but the objective of this quick trial was to see what would happen when I took a couple of minutes and changed two values.
I bet I can also change the description if I wanted to (when they unlock) but the objective of this quick trial was to see what would happen when I took a couple of minutes and changed two values.
Roland
Moderator
That's great but then it brings in another problem that the economy was handling and that is rushing up the perk tiers on Day 1. It is way OP to be able to spend all four points in one perk on Day 1 like you described. There still needs to be a balancing cost associated with moving deep within perks so that the best rewards can't be accessed so early and then there is no challenge. I finally got to tier 4 on my blade perk on Day 30 and with a machete right now on Day 41 I am OP compared to the zombies. I tear them apart without effort. Now on Day 1 there would be no machete but I'm betting with the bleeds and the dismemberment probability even a bone shiv is going to be amazing-- which feels good at first and then quickly renders the game boring.
BFT2020
Well-known member
Correct. While it is possible to do so, it does reduce the costs of the current system - so increase benefits, less cost. That is something I am worried about if I change the perks around the various trees to consolidate the firearms into one tree and the melee weapons in a different tree. For me this was just a quick exercise to see if it was as easy as I thought it would be, I wouldn't play it this way as I could be OP very quickly (which is why I backed up the original file so I can replace it after I experiment around). The nice thing is I can do the complete opposite too. I can now make rank 2 unlock at level 5 and so on. Or maybe make the first 2 levels stay the same and increase the cost for the final levels. To be honest, I never had an issue with the current perk system. For me, this was a fun quick activity to see what I can do.
Gazz
Fun Pimps Staff
The reason for attributes (feel free to call them any other name) is that they add replayability.
A character build requires rules. Without those there is no incentive to try something new instead of the clearly optimal a-la-carte rangertankmage.
It's also makes it quick and easy to tell who can do what in a group without a one hour discussion about all of their super special GURPS builds.
When focusing on one tree you get a lot from this one tree earlier and cheaper and that incentivises playing more than one game. With a-la-carte systems players tend to gravitate towards their comfort build if they hit even minimal resistance - instead of embracing the new build and using the different approach that it favours.
I did not read all the suggestions for How It Should Work Instead. At a glance, some of them are definitely meandering all over the place without getting to a point and if the pitch is already confusing there is no chance whatsoever that the design will work in a game. =P
A character build requires rules. Without those there is no incentive to try something new instead of the clearly optimal a-la-carte rangertankmage.
It's also makes it quick and easy to tell who can do what in a group without a one hour discussion about all of their super special GURPS builds.
When focusing on one tree you get a lot from this one tree earlier and cheaper and that incentivises playing more than one game. With a-la-carte systems players tend to gravitate towards their comfort build if they hit even minimal resistance - instead of embracing the new build and using the different approach that it favours.
I did not read all the suggestions for How It Should Work Instead. At a glance, some of them are definitely meandering all over the place without getting to a point and if the pitch is already confusing there is no chance whatsoever that the design will work in a game. =P
Liesel Weppen
New member
No, you didn't get it, and your answer proofed that again.
There is a huge difference between "making equal" and make something "not feeling wasted".
Combining sniper with farming is still more expensive as combining sniper with looting, because you still need to skill fortitude in addition. BUT those points needed to spent in fortitude have at least an effect for everybody then, even if they didn't intended to directly use that.
You just don't like what i suggest.
But ok, this disussion is over here for me. Since people ignore half posts, ignore development of the discussion and just blame "but you wrote that (and i ignore all the rest)" and in the end everybody just ended up with saying "i understand everything but you just don't like that", it makes no sense to keep going.
Basically it would have been better if i dropped it once i read a restriction was seen as a feature.
Over and out.
theFlu
Well-known member
I'm working under the assumption that madmole hasn't changed his mind about the skill trees being "feature complete". Thus, this far I haven't bothered trying to craft an actual idea. That in mind, a "small tweaks" version popped to my mind over this discussion; without further ado.
Core point is
"give the player Something that feels like it relates to the Attribute from the attribute." As in, make STR give something that feels natural to a strong person.
That might require scrapping the weapon-specific headshot multiplier and dismemberment from Attributes. Balance it out in base damage or other skills. Or keep it in, but it doesn't really feel that "sane".
I'm putting my draft into a spoiler, just to point out: don't waste your time here, there's nothing to be gained from reading this.. I just had to put it on paper
Core point is
"give the player Something that feels like it relates to the Attribute from the attribute." As in, make STR give something that feels natural to a strong person.
That might require scrapping the weapon-specific headshot multiplier and dismemberment from Attributes. Balance it out in base damage or other skills. Or keep it in, but it doesn't really feel that "sane".
I'm putting my draft into a spoiler, just to point out: don't waste your time here, there's nothing to be gained from reading this.. I just had to put it on paper
The "small tweaks" version would be to move a skill from under the attribute to the attribute itself; this would mess up the current balance the least, while maybe getting to a more "feels right" direction.
Perc: Could give either lucky looter, salvage or tracker. Each feel like a base perception thing, numbers would need to change of course. I'd go for Tracker, to leave the mats improvements in the skills, but it doesn't fall into 10 easy steps, so something like "range steps" might be needed.
Str: Best would be Pack mule, it feels like the purest base str skill. That will mess a bit with the Pocket Mods, but give the early points one slot per and the later ones 2, that way you'll want a full str build to skip the pockets.
Agi: The stealth perk (sneaking, not damage). Parkour might feel the best for Agi, but not everyone wants it (it'll mess your jumps and possibly your base design)
Fort: Injury resist or Gut improvements; the damage resistance might feel a little strong.
Int: Meds, but this is a tricky one; since most of them are crafting, there's no good candidate. Glorious Leader would be fine, but it's MP only and would require significant rework. Maybe give it something new?
As to tweaking the weapons to correct for the lost headshot damage, make the tweaks emphasize their "style":
Rifles: removed headshot from Perc, increase base headshot damage a bit and add the rest to the rifle perk. This could be used for the default treatment..
Shotties: move toward the mass splatter; remove the extra headshot bonus, but give improved dismemberment at base and at the skill. Blowing off arms and legs is a little pointless, but the overall wreckage would be fun..
Autorifles: improved stun ability... spray and pray a crowd, they'll start toppling on each other
Pistols: recoil reduction (essentially removal), no need to do more per hit if you get less missed heads..
etc..
Perc: Could give either lucky looter, salvage or tracker. Each feel like a base perception thing, numbers would need to change of course. I'd go for Tracker, to leave the mats improvements in the skills, but it doesn't fall into 10 easy steps, so something like "range steps" might be needed.
Str: Best would be Pack mule, it feels like the purest base str skill. That will mess a bit with the Pocket Mods, but give the early points one slot per and the later ones 2, that way you'll want a full str build to skip the pockets.
Agi: The stealth perk (sneaking, not damage). Parkour might feel the best for Agi, but not everyone wants it (it'll mess your jumps and possibly your base design)
Fort: Injury resist or Gut improvements; the damage resistance might feel a little strong.
Int: Meds, but this is a tricky one; since most of them are crafting, there's no good candidate. Glorious Leader would be fine, but it's MP only and would require significant rework. Maybe give it something new?
As to tweaking the weapons to correct for the lost headshot damage, make the tweaks emphasize their "style":
Rifles: removed headshot from Perc, increase base headshot damage a bit and add the rest to the rifle perk. This could be used for the default treatment..
Shotties: move toward the mass splatter; remove the extra headshot bonus, but give improved dismemberment at base and at the skill. Blowing off arms and legs is a little pointless, but the overall wreckage would be fun..
Autorifles: improved stun ability... spray and pray a crowd, they'll start toppling on each other
Pistols: recoil reduction (essentially removal), no need to do more per hit if you get less missed heads..
etc..
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Roland
Moderator
This right here is most likely the problem rather than any lack of understanding. We just have different philosophies about game design. In my mind, restrictions ARE a feature related to player choice and balance. If you don’t want restrictions then give yourself skillpoint through the console, turn on god mode, and/or enable the creative menu. No more restrictions.
it may seem counter intuitive but giving the player full freedom actually reduces tough choices and options to challenge themselves. Sorry that our perspectives are too different to be able to have this discussion.
Roland
Moderator
I just want to add that there can be rules and mechanics that make a game feel too restrictive and I understand that. Each player is going to have their own sense of how far is too far with restrictions. Obviously, @Liesel Weppens line is drawn in a different place than mine. I didn't like the level gates that TFP previously had implemented as that felt way too restrictive to me. But there were others who liked having level gates as a goal to work towards.
So I'm not saying that Liesel probably wants the game completely unrestrictive, its just that the current mechanic feels to restrictive to them but not to me. But I also wouldn't be angry if they made it less restrictive towards some of the suggestions that Liesel made such as having attribute bonuses affect all weapons. Something like that wouldn't go to far in permissiveness and freedom as far as I can tell-- for me.
So I'm not saying that Liesel probably wants the game completely unrestrictive, its just that the current mechanic feels to restrictive to them but not to me. But I also wouldn't be angry if they made it less restrictive towards some of the suggestions that Liesel made such as having attribute bonuses affect all weapons. Something like that wouldn't go to far in permissiveness and freedom as far as I can tell-- for me.
It’s just a matter of balancing numbers. Perks can cost more with each level. Also there could be diminishing returns. Another way to help balance it out would be to double the number of levels for a perk but half each levels benefit.
however, I get what @Gazz is saying when he says that without attribute requirements people would just chose the same thing they always do with each play through. I remember playing Oblivion and I always chose heavy armor, repair, blades, etc and pretty much never deviated since there was nothing to prevent or discourage me from doing so.
So in the end, I guess someone (not me lol) will have to make mod and then I’ll see how it feels.
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uncle.heavy
New member
Me neither but as I had pointed out, that change in its present form would just redistribute the costs.
To be equally sufficient with any one weapon as just maxing out its current category and perk, several categories would have to be maxed out - plus the current category and perk.
This is just to prevent someone spending months of modding to discover they have gone nowhere at all
starscream
New member
you could disassociate perks from attributes, but then you would need to gate them under something else. either character levels or increased cost for perks.
eg:
level 1 = 1 point
level 2 = 2 points
level 3 = 6 points
level 4 = 8 points
level 5 = 10 points
this way, even if you rush dump all your points into one weapon perk, you will only be able to max it out at level 23 and you would do so at a great cost of having all your other skills gimped. i think the above is balanced, since you could still max out a weapon relatively early, but playing with a more balanced spread of perks, it will take around level 60 to 80 to max it out, which is reasonable.
eg:
level 1 = 1 point
level 2 = 2 points
level 3 = 6 points
level 4 = 8 points
level 5 = 10 points
this way, even if you rush dump all your points into one weapon perk, you will only be able to max it out at level 23 and you would do so at a great cost of having all your other skills gimped. i think the above is balanced, since you could still max out a weapon relatively early, but playing with a more balanced spread of perks, it will take around level 60 to 80 to max it out, which is reasonable.
uncle.heavy
New member
I guess that would be one ( the?) logical continuation of the idea.
I do not know about about the playership in general but I think I felt a great relief in the force when explicit level gates made their good-bye, so cost maybe seems more appropriate?
Maharin
Well-known member
I'd even favor a steeper curve for some skills to promote a more well rounded character, which a "real" zombie apocalypse would require for survival.
Odetta
Tester
Never in all my years have I agreed more to what you just said. This and your spongebob quotes of course.
starscream
New member
i thought about that. with this 2x multiplier implementation, it is actually 1 point more expensive to max out a combat skill than the current attribute system, even more expensive if you include the fact that the user can wear magic glasses to shave off some more points from the requirement.
having a bigger multiplier, like 3x (which was my original plan) would discourage anyone from accepting this system over the vanilla implementation.
actually coming up with a new system and playtesting it might be a fun diversion until next alpha comes along.