PC Crafting Gates
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wordwaster
Refugee
realism doesn't matter to me, my only concern is whether i enjoy playing. also; i'm aware that the game isn't anywhere close to being balanced around that method, but it is what i'd prefer.
Blake_
Captain Obvious
Dear Mr Roland. I read your post and I feel that the changes regarding level gating and books are, as always,a well thought and welcome adition as the ability to have access to every crafting station was mandatory, and item rarity should speak by itself when crafting something.
There is only one particular set of items that need revisiting though: armors. They must have clear differences between them (other than weather protection and a few unimportant elementary defenses ) and pros and cons to incite and lure players into the choice to pick one or another. Otherwise they would have to be gated to force players to use them in order (does it really have to be one?) and that scks. I'm talking : run faster with light armor/slower with heavy kinda thing PLUS mods.So leather armor CAN have this steel scale upgrade but iron armor won't for example. cheers to the devs and tammer Roland.
There is only one particular set of items that need revisiting though: armors. They must have clear differences between them (other than weather protection and a few unimportant elementary defenses ) and pros and cons to incite and lure players into the choice to pick one or another. Otherwise they would have to be gated to force players to use them in order (does it really have to be one?) and that scks. I'm talking : run faster with light armor/slower with heavy kinda thing PLUS mods.So leather armor CAN have this steel scale upgrade but iron armor won't for example. cheers to the devs and tammer Roland.
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warmer
Hunter
Maybe a nice solution to the level gating and schematic requirements would be a level lowering bonus for finding the schematic.
Compound Bow
Required Craft lvl: 4
Schematic Bonus:-1
Effective Crafting lvl req: 3
A Compound Bow would have a weapon crafting gate at level 4 in weapon crafting you auto unlock a compound bow, but finding the schematic makes you able to craft it at weapon crafting 3.
The difference in complexity between a simple bow and compound should make a lvl requirement be in place. To powerful for lvl 1.
Compound Bow
Required Craft lvl: 4
Schematic Bonus:-1
Effective Crafting lvl req: 3
A Compound Bow would have a weapon crafting gate at level 4 in weapon crafting you auto unlock a compound bow, but finding the schematic makes you able to craft it at weapon crafting 3.
The difference in complexity between a simple bow and compound should make a lvl requirement be in place. To powerful for lvl 1.
padybonder
Refugee
I prefer the books and schematics, at least for very "technical" recipes, like forges, compound bows, cement mixer. The current solution in A16 is to gamey for me.
But then you'd have to address the frustration coming with RNG (like the forge book). Some ideas:
- A specific book could be crafted out of specific pages. Pages would be much more common, which could give a sense of progression. And crafting the book would take a lot of time to simulate the actual studying. And the crafting could stop when you're running, using a tool or a weapon.
- There could be a primitive version each item available from start. Primitive meaning: takes more time and resources to craft something / inflicts less HP / has less durability. We have it already with the wooden bow / compound bow, we could also have a primitive forge / forge
There could also be a studying mechanism: when standing in front of a let's say a car, you could study it. You'd earn mechanical skill points as time passes by. After having earned x mechanical skill points you could buy the skill 'craft a minibike'. Having a 'Mechanical book' in your hand would accelerate the studying process.
But then you'd have to address the frustration coming with RNG (like the forge book). Some ideas:
- A specific book could be crafted out of specific pages. Pages would be much more common, which could give a sense of progression. And crafting the book would take a lot of time to simulate the actual studying. And the crafting could stop when you're running, using a tool or a weapon.
- There could be a primitive version each item available from start. Primitive meaning: takes more time and resources to craft something / inflicts less HP / has less durability. We have it already with the wooden bow / compound bow, we could also have a primitive forge / forge
There could also be a studying mechanism: when standing in front of a let's say a car, you could study it. You'd earn mechanical skill points as time passes by. After having earned x mechanical skill points you could buy the skill 'craft a minibike'. Having a 'Mechanical book' in your hand would accelerate the studying process.
I voted for option 4. I was not around when the forge ahead book was required for the forge, but it sounds to me like much more of a pain then it was really worth.
As for level gateing, yea thats a big no for me. It forces you to play a certain style. Level 60 or so for steel smithing? Yea best way was to go kill zombies. Idk how killing zombies would MAGICALY give you the knowledge of making steel tools. Same for tool/weapon/armour/misc crafting upgrades.
A16 imho was a huge let down. I have easily put more than 10x the amount of time on the console version, because it feels MUCH more immersive. Yes, theres no guns/turrets, but I never use them anyway when I am bored enough to play on pc. Now, if they update the console version to what the current failed skill sstem is, I would prob just unisntall it, and ask for my money back from ps4 (not that I could, mind you).
Anyway, like I said, I voted for option 4.
As for level gateing, yea thats a big no for me. It forces you to play a certain style. Level 60 or so for steel smithing? Yea best way was to go kill zombies. Idk how killing zombies would MAGICALY give you the knowledge of making steel tools. Same for tool/weapon/armour/misc crafting upgrades.
A16 imho was a huge let down. I have easily put more than 10x the amount of time on the console version, because it feels MUCH more immersive. Yes, theres no guns/turrets, but I never use them anyway when I am bored enough to play on pc. Now, if they update the console version to what the current failed skill sstem is, I would prob just unisntall it, and ask for my money back from ps4 (not that I could, mind you).
Anyway, like I said, I voted for option 4.
Kubikus
Refugee
I voted that I don't like any of it. I think it should be possible to actively work towards goals, instead of relying on luck. I also think that work should be specific, instead of just having the player "level up".
Quest are a good way to unlock important recipes, like the workstations, steel- and cement-recipes, possibly vehicles (they could be rare and you get one as a reward for a difficult quest).
Recipes can be sold at a very high price at traders.
Where it makes sense, recipes can be unlocked by increasing the skill. For example, start with a wooden club and the more zombies you kill with clubs, the more club-recipes you unlock. Same with armor, unlock recipes for better armor by killing zombies in close combat.
Immersion is always great. Luck can still be used for recipes that are not essential. Interesting weapon modifications, particularly good tools. Things like that.
Quest are a good way to unlock important recipes, like the workstations, steel- and cement-recipes, possibly vehicles (they could be rare and you get one as a reward for a difficult quest).
Recipes can be sold at a very high price at traders.
Where it makes sense, recipes can be unlocked by increasing the skill. For example, start with a wooden club and the more zombies you kill with clubs, the more club-recipes you unlock. Same with armor, unlock recipes for better armor by killing zombies in close combat.
Immersion is always great. Luck can still be used for recipes that are not essential. Interesting weapon modifications, particularly good tools. Things like that.
I would have liked random books for everything (instead of level/skill gates) if it was possible. But it isn't, a recipe that 5 people should have difficulty to find in a co-op game would then be nearly imposible to find for a single player.
Random works well sometimes, for stuff where you always have alternatives or the thing is optional. Weapons for example, you might have to wait a long time for the recipe for your prefered weapon, but using other weapons instead is always an alternative.
Random works well sometimes, for stuff where you always have alternatives or the thing is optional. Weapons for example, you might have to wait a long time for the recipe for your prefered weapon, but using other weapons instead is always an alternative.
Exxodous
Refugee
I'm not real sure what beating zombies over the head with a club would have to do with and increased knowledge in making the clubs? One is combat and the other is craftsmanship. I knight with a sword sure isn't the blacksmith who forged it right?
The only way I see to advance your knowledge in something like that would be experience (ie spam crafting, which I do not like) or learning via a book or something. I mean I've learned how to do a lot of things by watching a youtube video or reading like car repairs or how to cook a specific meal. But even after learning the skill generally I need to practice or do it multiple times before I really become proficient at it.
So maybe some sort of system that allows you to learn a recipe from a book or quest but the more times you make it the durability is increased. Or in the case of things like food or healing items the amount healed or fullness values increase with "practice". That would still bring back some spam crafting but surely some balance could be figured out there. With things like clubs maybe only repairing it increases the durability but you can only repair it once it is down to 25% or something that way you can't just sit around all night making clubs but the ability to improve your skill is still there?
Spitballing obviously.
Kubikus
Refugee
But the knight with a sword will tell the blacksmith what a better sword could look like. It probably wasn't the blacksmith who inveted hand guards. It was the knight who got his hands hurt in combat.
Clubs: You start out with basically just a branch. Beat zombies over the head, but dang, the just wooden stick breaks. What do? Maybe reinforce it with some metal. Then you're using that, and wish you had an even more efficient club, so you think about way to make a club more efficient. Barbed wire comes to mind, so you use it.
The quality of the club depends on craftsmanship. The idea to make a better club comes from beating zombies over the head.
Have a control to counter the random when rngesus hates you.
Leave it a random chance like it is in A16 where some items n such are just hard to find but also have the Traders "Teach" whats in certain books/schematics as quest rewards for completing certain quests. Not as items to "Buy" to be used later but "Taught" on the spot for that individual player, so as to counter ppl just buying the book/schematic for another player.
Obviously have hard to get items available as well as quest rewards as an option as well. So, Even if you find or Buy the correct tool from the Trader you won't be able to make what you want quite yet, till you also find the book/schematic or were "Taught" by the Trader from a quest reward.
This way some players can still go about trying to find everything without using the Traders and other players can use the Traders as a "Safety Net" if it starts to get over the top in that some items/books/schematics just doesn't want to drop. They'll still need to complete quest to gain access but if it's the last resort..
Leave it a random chance like it is in A16 where some items n such are just hard to find but also have the Traders "Teach" whats in certain books/schematics as quest rewards for completing certain quests. Not as items to "Buy" to be used later but "Taught" on the spot for that individual player, so as to counter ppl just buying the book/schematic for another player.
Obviously have hard to get items available as well as quest rewards as an option as well. So, Even if you find or Buy the correct tool from the Trader you won't be able to make what you want quite yet, till you also find the book/schematic or were "Taught" by the Trader from a quest reward.
This way some players can still go about trying to find everything without using the Traders and other players can use the Traders as a "Safety Net" if it starts to get over the top in that some items/books/schematics just doesn't want to drop. They'll still need to complete quest to gain access but if it's the last resort..
Exxodous
Refugee
Lol, while I do not disagree with this statement the fact still remains the knight didn't make a better sword or the hand guards. I've had lots of ideas over the years about how I wished something worked better but not the means or experience to actually build it.
I cut a lot of trees down as a youngster with a chainsaw and consider myself pretty handy with one, but it wasn't until I was an adult that I tried to sharpen a blade. Guess what? Even after 100's of hours using a chainsaw I was a miserable failure trying to sharpen the dang thing. I had to have someone teach me and then I.....practiced multiple times before I go good at it.
So "using" a club (chainsaw) sure as heck won't teach me to build (repair) one. It may make me think of things I'd like to improve or have in a club, but without actually building it through trial and error (spam crafting) will I ever get better at it.
To think just using something will help you create something is ludacris in my opinion. I haven't gotten one iota better at building a computer while using it to reply to you have I?
Although I worship at the altar of rngesus, I think that this is how I feel about it as well.
One thing that I have long desired is for the skill progression to have a requirement group in the same way that the quest objectives do.
With quests, you can specify <requirement type="Group" id="requirementGroupName" value="OR"> and provide a list of optional requirements.
If such a thing could be done with skills as it is with quests, then it wouldn't require much effort to build in a control:
Skiil requirement 1: Read the book
Skill requirement 2: meet such and such prerequisites
Alternatively, the Trader can be used as another control. This is a matter of balancing the availability.
Kubikus
Refugee
I agree when it comes to things like concrete mixing, making anti biotics, biofuel, steel, mechanical parts and so on. I would gate this behind quests. But reinforcing a piece of wood with metal shards and barbed wire? Hardly computer science. Cutting and sewing leather to make armor is probably a little more difficult, yet I'm fairly confident I could make myself leather armor of low quality without having to read a book or have someone explain sewing to me. And with practice, I'd get better at it.
Knowing how it's done does not make you good at it, therefore you a) unlock the recipe and b) have to get better at the actual crafting.
- - - Updated - - -
I'm using a half-heartedly implemented mechanic that feeds a "Nerd" skill with a point whenever you read a book. And then, beginning around 100 points, it starts unlocking recipes, including every book-based recipe, in case the player was unlucky.
canadianbluebeer
Refugee
I like both actually.
Books to give you the skill now. Just like you know, reading a book.
Level gates for things that don't need a book, but do need skills.
Minibike: read the book. assemble the bits. ok. (just like reading a manual on your car. it works. I know, I get the how to fix it book for every vehicle I've owned, and have done some of my own repairs. BRAKES I leave to the pros)
Steel: level/skill. Learn to make iron first yadda, then steel.
Cement Mixer: yes, you're gonna need mining, and a lot of it, if you plan to make a lot of cement.
Books to lower the level or increase the skills: Some mods have those.
The way Valmod does it for cooking and medicine is great!
Increase your skill, learn new recipes, and in the case of cooking, make it faster.
Solely behind perks, and very limited perks.. um... not a fan, but mods will give ways to get all the skills.
Not being able to learn everything leads to classes, and that's fine for multiplayer (is very good for that),
but in SP, um.. need to be very careful. As long as the basics can be done though... will have to see.
tl;dr: read it.
:der:
Books to give you the skill now. Just like you know, reading a book.
Level gates for things that don't need a book, but do need skills.
Minibike: read the book. assemble the bits. ok. (just like reading a manual on your car. it works. I know, I get the how to fix it book for every vehicle I've owned, and have done some of my own repairs. BRAKES I leave to the pros)
Steel: level/skill. Learn to make iron first yadda, then steel.
Cement Mixer: yes, you're gonna need mining, and a lot of it, if you plan to make a lot of cement.
Books to lower the level or increase the skills: Some mods have those.
The way Valmod does it for cooking and medicine is great!
Increase your skill, learn new recipes, and in the case of cooking, make it faster.
Solely behind perks, and very limited perks.. um... not a fan, but mods will give ways to get all the skills.
Not being able to learn everything leads to classes, and that's fine for multiplayer (is very good for that),
but in SP, um.. need to be very careful. As long as the basics can be done though... will have to see.
tl;dr: read it.
:der:
Qyzer
Refugee
I'm a big fan of most of what you say here, but I'm not opposed to learning new perks later. I intensely dislike the level gating, but I'm somewhat OK with perks requiring other perks as long as you have the points.
Agreed, except for the parts that involve traders
If we must have traders in the game I'd be happier if they were for basic things you grind for rather than the special things that would be best found by exploring and looting. But I mostly think traders are a horrible addition to the game.I think quests are a good way to integrate RNG, schematics/recipes, and allow directed research. Making books provide extra research on a quest for a recipe seems the best route to me. As long as the books are more general (like science, tools, melee, armor, guns, etc...) and don't become wasted so much later (and let them be scrapped for LOTs of paper not a piece or two).
skullpoker
Refugee
Neither will making a simple Wooden Club make you better at crafting Iron Reinforced Clubs. It would improve your ability to craft a simple wood club that you could reinforce, but only practice at reinforcing and repairing a reinforced club will help you learn to make a better reinforced club. This would mean that while basic book or perk could teach you to craft a handgun, you would then need to practice to get better at making handguns, and possibly another skill for Firearm Modification. This points to a need for many different crafting skills per weapon/tool/science/medical... crafted item. On one hand, this would make the skill menus much more complicated. On the other hand, code-wise it doesn't add a large amount to the game.