PC Clarification on Health and Stamina

[Roland]

^^ lol...I know what you mean. There's a lot of cross-over discussion of several issues being had across about five threads that are updating at a fast rate and it's hard to keep track if you're reading them all and then feel inspired to stick your iron in the fire.

I solve it by sticking irons in all of them.

 

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

Complicated =\= Bad designYou don’t like it =\= Bad design

Can we get this stickied at the top of the forum or something. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen people conflate "it's not my preference" with "it's bad design", or worse, "it's lazy design" (whatever that's supposed to mean).

Anyway, the new system sounds good, but I'll reserve judgement till I've played it. I'm a bit concerned that the new system will pretty much require you to use first aid items - and so is dependent on you finding enough of them (whereas in the old system they were good for emergencies but you could heal back to full without them so they weren't as necessary).

It might also depend on what the death penalty is, but since you guys are keeping shtum about that it remains another unknown.

 

[Roland]

Thanks Roland!
So water can heal you too?

Also - is it possible to have the 'non-usable' slots in the backpack 'invisible' so to speak until you actually purchase them?

Water doesn't heal you. Temporary damage heals over time naturally. If you are 100% hydrated your healing rate will be faster than if you are at 20% hydration. The same is true of stamina. If you are thirsty your stamina will refill at a slower rate and if you are not thirsty it will refill at a higher rate.

I don't know about non-usable slots being invisible instead of locked out.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Because having it there breaks immersion, and it's not like there aren't sound tells for it also.

Does it break the immersion any less if these values are replaced by constantly changing positive and negative rates? I can get behind the arguments Roland put forward, but the immersion-breaking aspect is, respectfully, bovine-feces, in my opinion.

 

[OneArmedBandit]

for what it's worth: to me the new system sounds great. it's different to all "health" systems I know from other games and it seems ledgit that your ability to work hard is lessened when you are hungry.

so let's see how it works out in the field

 

[TyrantXP]

4 Bars - How much of Health, Stamina, Water, Food - " in real life " i know definitely these things. Done.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Well, as with all things, I try not to pre-judge them, so I'll wait until I can play it myself to see whether I like it or not.

 

[RestInPieces]

@Roland you never replied to my question of what happens with death

Does your status reset and items dropping/deleted (if configured) the only penalty now?

 

[mr.devolver]

Can we get this stickied at the top of the forum or something. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen people conflate "it's not my preference" with "it's bad design", or worse, "it's lazy design" (whatever that's supposed to mean).

Yeah, there's so many entitled people around here who think that their voice matters when in reality, they all are just a bunch of "You's" who happen to dislike something and since the rule of "You don't like it =\= Bad design" exists, all of those "You's" automatically fall in the minority, regardless of how many of "You's" are there in the equation. I mean, it's so foolish of those "You's" to even dare to speak up, when the odds are clearly against them, what a bunch of ungrateful, disobedient little "You's", right?

By the way, good job on the biased poll with the missing option expressing negative impression from the said change that would certainly make sense to add since there were people who already expressed concerns regarding it. It's like that joke app asking you whether you're happy with your wage or not and when you try to click NO the button always moves away from the mouse cursor so you can only click YES.

 

[Burakin]

It seems more interesting then before, makes more 'sense' too. I'll have to see how it plays though.

 

[Rez090]

So are TFP now trying to mimic Fallout and Skyrim now? Agility, Fortitude? Will Luck be added so we can get the Mysterious Stranger perk? Are we playing a survival game or an RPG?

The old system was fine, there was nothing wrong with it. You ate good food to raise hunger, raise wellness which would raise health and stamina, higher hunger would slowly heal you. You drank liquids to raise thirst, help stamina recovery, keep you from overheating.

This is why we may never see a beta version of this game. TFP has systems that have worked quite well for the game but then they change their minds years later and change them. They can't even decide what they want their UI or HUD to look like, 6 or 7 times now they've changed it.

 

[Scyris]

I kinda dislike the health bar because not having max hp is annoying, In a16 its the same but you still get a full hp bar once your fully healed, where as a17 actually shortens the bar, as some people got ocd thats going to annoy the hell out of them, same for the stamina bar.

 

[Scyris]

So are TFP now trying to mimic Fallout and Skyrim now? Agility, Fortitude? Will Luck be added so we can get the Mysterious Stranger perk? Are we playing a survival game or an RPG?
The old system was fine, there was nothing wrong with it. You ate good food to raise hunger, raise wellness which would raise health and stamina, higher hunger would slowly heal you. You drank liquids to raise thirst, help stamina recovery, keep you from overheating.

This is why we may never see a beta version of this game. TFP has systems that have worked quite well for the game but then they change their minds years later and change them. They can't even decide what they want their UI or HUD to look like, 6 or 7 times now they've changed it.

You sound like me, I been saying for a while now that the game hasn't really gone anywhere much because the devs keep changing their vision/minds and can't seem to settle on anything, A17 is probally the closest we been to them finally settling on something so they can build on it. I hope they stick with it, because redoing the game most alpha's is not getting it anywhere to be honest. I especally hope they stick with A17 after all the work they did, they bascally remade most of the game for A17, and it'd suck if they decide to do this yet again in A18/beta. I been around since a9/10 ish or so, and to me the game hasn't changed too much between those, was alot of little things but nothing as major as A16 to a17 will be.

The future looks good if they build on A17 and don't decide to redo it all yet again in A18/beta 1.

This said, I still love the game and still play it off and on.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I kinda dislike the health bar because not having max hp is annoying, In a16 its the same but you still get a full hp bar once your fully healed, where as a17 actually shortens the bar, as some people got ocd thats going to annoy the hell out of them, same for the stamina bar.

but you can easily avoid it.

I'd say its easier to get higher max hp then it was in A16.

Getting to 200 hp was an ordeal of tricking the system (aka, eating and drinking only meat stew and goldenrod) and if you were to die when you had 180 hp (zombiebear, falldamage/bug) you lost potential of about 10-15 hours of gameplay.

Now all you need is bandages (even the simple ones will help) to fix this.

What I DISLIKE however is madmole saying that dying "now has a punishment" when i feel like deleting 10 max hp is WAY worse then this "temporarymaxhp damage".

10 hp as i said was hours of eating correctly, not getting hit and checking temperature.

Now its "oh ive died, here ill take this medkit and im fine again".

So dying has EVEN LESS of a consequence now... (maybe if you revive with only 20 maxhp and you have to find your stuff and heal for 2 hours to be at max, that would work...)

 

[Gazz]

but you can easily avoid it.I'd say its easier to get higher max hp then it was in A16.

Getting to 200 hp was an ordeal of tricking the system (aka, eating and drinking only meat stew and goldenrod) and if you were to die when you had 180 hp (zombiebear, falldamage/bug) you lost potential of about 10-15 hours of gameplay.

Whether or not you have high max HP is more of a choice in which way you build your character and less a mind-numbing chore.

I don't believe that anyone saw what you outlined there as "gameplay".

If at all, they liked it because of the reward, not because of how they got it.

That right there was a problem. Same as spam-crafting. People just sitting on their butt and clicking a button once in a while.

And AFAIK no punishment for dieing has been shown, yet, so I don't know where you go that from.

 

[bloom_meister]

Well... I'll be your guest
A simple system is always great for a certain type of game.

If you want to play 5 minutes of candy crush, having to know 300 pages of candycrush wiki to beat level 1 is not how you need to design a game.

But this game is a way more nieche game.

It is survival. Everything in this game is (seemingly) working against you. Food and water, zombies, ressource scarcity, (other players if multiplayer)

NOTHING in this game should feel as if its a present. BUT it should also be something that you can make to work for you.

So if we take the two different aproaches we will see something:

A16:

max hp 250,

food 100%

hp recovery 0.5 per % food

So with 0 food you basically get 50hp back.

So there was no need for food and drink if you aren't hurt.

You could go 2-3 ingamedays without food and 1 day without water without any punishment. And even after you only got slight decreases on your wellness. But even if you "saved up" your food to heal lateron, you would still only get back a small amount of hp.

It made no real sense why you wouldn't regenerate slowly over time, but it was "easy to understand".

System now:

if you do not drink(regularly), you do not get stamina/hp back as fast limiting your exploration, harvest and fighting capability.

If you do not eat (regularly), you have less stamina/health, limiting your exploration, harvest and fighting capability.

BUT on the other hand, you can get hp back without having to have any food/medical supplies on you, the overall hp resored is also larger, BUT you are slightly punished for not beeing wellfed.

So now instead of trying to trick the system by downing 2 meatstews after each other and drinking 4 goldenrodteas and then not eating anything for days, you will have to regularly feed yourself and make the choice (if you have it) to take stuff with you to be able to explore/fight better or to have an extra slot open for other stuff.

tl;dr:

old system: easy, exploitative, unrewarding

new system: complex (but not impossible to understand), realistic, rewarding

Which one wins is personal choice. But I like non dumbed down games... so I love the new system.

You present your rational well and whilst I dont necessarily agree with your logic, lets say for the sake of argument I do, none of that explains in any way removing the values for health and stam from the bars.

 

[iejen]

So are TFP now trying to mimic Fallout and Skyrim now?

I hope so since those are one of the best games ever made.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

You present your rational well and whilst I dont necessarily agree with your logic, lets say for the sake of argument I do, none of that explains in any way removing the values for health and stam from the bars.

Correct. And that is a seperate issue which I (as min/maxer) kinda dislike... becuase i like to know how much damage a zombie can deal and take... but ill reserve judgement until I've played it... but yeah kinda against it myself.

Whether or not you have high max HP is more of a choice in which way you build your character and less a mind-numbing chore.I don't believe that anyone saw what you outlined there as "gameplay".

If at all, they liked it because of the reward, not because of how they got it.

That right there was a problem. Same as spam-crafting. People just sitting on their butt and clicking a button once in a while.

And AFAIK no punishment for dieing has been shown, yet, so I don't know where you go that from.

So I went through the video JUST FOR YOU to find his stupid quote...

watch his video again and skip to: 33:03 where he talks about how death has "impact now" when earlier you could jsut "respawn without cost"

Always fun to see the dev not knowing anything about their own game... (nohate )

 

[unholyjoe]

So, who will ever consider melee again in a game where loot from zombies are gone and they will lose max hp from every hit that they take from enemies?

i guess i fall into that category where i aint normal..

because my play style is nomad and melee only using bow or crossbow for hunting meat or during blood moon and i do get into the battle with melee during blood moon.

so yes... i guess i am crazy... but its me and its my way to play and i enjoy it.

oh as for a17... i did have to change the way i do things and i am getting used to it... but AI is WIP so i will have to keep adapting..

 

[Jatar]

I'll use whichever mod puts it back to the way I like, so it's a rather pointless topic.