PC Catering to New Players hurts Replayability for Experienced Players

[Roland]

Not me. I am one of the playerbase who is just fine with the fixed POIs. And I don't even exploit my way to the loot room either!! I just go with it.
However what I do dislike the RWG's insistence in giving me 20+ copies of the same damn POI all near each other in a small city. That's the issue. I understand there are a hundred or more prefab POIs? Yet I get the same small subset over and over and over in my RWG.

The trick is to increase the size of the building blocks. Don't add a POI here and there at random on a city grid. Add a prefabricated street. Hope that made since. Basically make the random bits you jigsaw together larger.

Again, you are confusing me with other posters, or lumping me in with them. I'm fine with the fixed POIs, I've come to terms with them and even like some of them a lot - but I'm not fine with the inadequacies of RWG and the way it uses them.

Sorry if I misrepresented your view :05.18-flustered:

 

[Roland]

So very true :encouragement: I'm now gonna read on and find Rolands and others denial of the truth in all you said.

I wasn't going to but... Shin this post is for you.

It's definitely an entirely different game than when "we" first started. The mo has been to instead of fixing problems in the alpha, replace it with something else that has flaws to be replaced the next alpha.

Truth. It is an entirely new game. The MO has been a lot of pure experimentation which means trying and removing. Makes sense that some people would fall in love with some of the trials that were abandoned. But there's nothing objectively wrong with replacing with new vs fixing what you have if that is your MO.

Now from the tfp perspective, as I've always said, business is business, but mm has stated (and recanted, then restated, then repeat the cycle) that the goal is 25 hours, give or take.

Half-Truth. Guppy knows that Madmole never said nor meant that goal was to create a 25 hour length game. He said that he wanted the first 25 hours to polished and accessible and appealing and that is what they are focused on right now. Madmole also repeated and restated that he wants to make the game more complex in the right way and to have plenty of content for people beyond that first 25 hours.

That's what gets them the most business, fine. What it doesn't get them is replayability, which is what "we" used to have in prior alphas.

Truth or False: Well the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned. We don't know if the game isn't replayable any longer. Reports are conflicted.

That is what's different about the game and why "us" old players feel slighted.
This most definitely is not the game we originally bought, and pointing out the Eula for early access is insulting, because it's a clear cop out.

Hope that helps you understand, even if you vehemently disagree.

Truth: Who am I to disagree with what makes someone feel offended or slighted. Sorry you feel that way. I didn't mean to insult by pointing out we all should have known when we bought in that the game might very well change into something we don't like. Those who like the outcome don't see it as a cop out. They see it as the culmination of 7 years of development and hard work.

Oh, and "this is the best alpha yet, we are finally getting what we envisioned" only to have that alpha trash talked the very NEXT alpha, doesn't help.

Truth: Oh man I hate it when he does that too. I loved A17 and hate hearing him now say it was trash when he was calling it "beta" for months before the release...

 

[KhaineGB]

I might be talking nonsense...

But I really feel simplifying the quality system down to 1-6 from 1-600 hasn't helped with feeling like the game is... well.. shorter.

Why do I say that? Because 500 was the highest we could craft. We'd constantly be scavenging to look for better parts, to throw in the combine grid to upgrade our armor/guns/melee/etc.

I think 256 is the max in the DLL, but it'd be nice if we could have the 1-600 back. Much slower burn on the quality levels to encourage folks to go out and get looting. Probably wouldn't happen though.

 

[Roland]

snip

Welcome to the forums. Please don't let post counts affect how you post. I've never seen anyone use their post count to try and "win" an argument around here. Your opinion is as valid as any though posting a bit more....heartlessly....is usually best.

 

[Roland]

I might be talking nonsense...
But I really feel simplifying the quality system down to 1-6 from 1-600 hasn't helped with feeling like the game is... well.. shorter.

Why do I say that? Because 500 was the highest we could craft. We'd constantly be scavenging to look for better parts, to throw in the combine grid to upgrade our armor/guns/melee/etc.

I think 256 is the max in the DLL, but it'd be nice if we could have the 1-600 back. Much slower burn on the quality levels to encourage folks to go out and get looting. Probably wouldn't happen though.

I would be very much in favor of increasing the quality levels even if it was just to 100 if not 600. I agree that 1-6 is too short.

 

[Guppycur]

Welcome to the forums. Please don't let post counts affect how you post. I've never seen anyone use their post count to try and "win" an argument around here. Your opinion is as valid as any though posting a bit more....heartlessly....is usually best.

...why'd you quote me.

You're getting old and slipping, my friend.

d'oh! it was probably your diminutive post count. --Roland

 

[Guppycur]

Oh, and if anyone starts a "I have a higher post count so my word is more valuable" rant, feel free to let me know. I've honestly never seen anyone do it, but I'd be happy to shut them down.

I do think the sentiment of having been here and involved a lot longer has created a bigger investment exists though... But it still gives no one any kind of upper hand on anything, other than they will get old jokes, understand comments more and in general be more accepted. But that's just humanity.

 

[stallionsden]

<snip>.

If you knew what you were talking about i might actually respond and give you the full attention others have gotten in their responses.

But quoting my use of all had nothing to do with new players it was in reference to long timers. That all new players i stand by it. You need answers given to you. Didnt say you dont enjoy that way.

But yes please quote actual not snippets put together will help you on the long run..

Welcome to the forums... *yawn*

 

[xiiMaRcLeoN]

My popcorn is empty now.

 

[stallionsden]

My popcorn is empty now.

How big was your container lol

 

[Shin]

I wasn't going to but... Shin this post is for you.

I knew you had it in you :smile-new:

 

[Morloc]

I've never seen anyone use their post count to try and "win" an argument around here.

Odd though...coming from a fellow whose post count, when divided by

comes out to be almost

 


exactly 25...

 


The very SAME NUMBER of hours that he claims Madmole is currently focused on for 7D2D to be polished and accessible and appealing for.

-Morloc

 

[stallionsden]

Odd though...coming from a fellow whose post count, when divided by

comes out to be almost  


exactly 25...

 


The very SAME NUMBER of hours that he claims Madmole is currently focused on for 7D2D to be polished and accessible and appealing for.

-Morloc

Lol roland can be a devil at times lol but never an angel to many restraining orders

 

[Roland]

Odd though...coming from a fellow whose post count, when divided by

comes out to be almost  


exactly 25...

 


The very SAME NUMBER of hours that he claims Madmole is currently focused on for 7D2D to be polished and accessible and appealing for.

-Morloc

Hmmm....dividing Snowdog's post count by 69 yields nearly the same amount. Must be real....

 

[Kubikus]

I would ask, what equals "disservice to old timers" or "walk all over the old timers"?

I said what I mean. Is anything unclear or do you want to lead a sophisticated debate on fundamental principles?

Does intention have anything to do it?

Sure. In this case, the intention seems to be to make more money and cater to players who like a simple game.

So if TFP is making changes that they feel make the game better from their perspective but there is no ill intent towards anyone who has 1000s of hours would that be just an innocent "here's hoping old timers understand and still support us" or a more diabolical "lets walk all over them"?

Afaik, they simplify things to sell more copies and when old timers complain, they respond with "we don't cater to you". Is that wrong? In this post, you say very different things all the time. Was I mislead, to me it's only hearsay.

Is the standard simply "if I feel walked on then I was walked on"?

No.

As you pointed out nobody is saying ALL old timers feel spurned. So if it isn't a universal feeling of being screwed over then is it really real that anyone is actually being walked on?

There is no general answer to your general question, it has to be decided case by case. In the case we discuss here, my answer is yes.

Madmole has said a number of times that there will be some simplification particularly in the early game to make playing more intuitive and easy to understand but that he wants to add more complexity to mid and late game.

Then again, they already made millions with a game that did not have these simplifications. So why does he want them? Why does he think, he needs them? To sell as many copies as possible? And why did he make things "complicated" first?

Sure, we are the ones who supported TFP while they were starting out

See. They made a game that was so-and-so "complicated", that became a hit, sold - last thing I heard years ago - over 1.5 million copies, made the owners rich. Now that we are nearing the end of development, instead of getting the polished version of that great game we supported, the version we all were looking forward too, we (seem to) get a simplified version, that is simplified in hopes of selling more copies to new players who - obviously in the decision maker's mind - are too dumb to play the game they actually wanted to make. While the rest will hopefully still get enough entertainment outta the game with mods. That often-quoted "vision" that they had of the game is now too complicated? Hm.

and we have a reward in that we can remember the game how it once was. People starting in A18 can never get that. Sure they can go back but they won't appreciate Alpha 10 as the best version yet like we did when all we knew was Alpha 9. We can joke about all the broken legs in Alpha 11 and procedural caves that newbies will never have in their game.

And the point here is..? I certainly got my money's worth. Already with my playtime in A17+ I got my money's worth. The game is still pretty good. So?

Would it be nice to have procedural caves now? Absolutely. But is TFP's decision to not include them born out of wanting to stick it to old timers who remember playing with procedural caves or is it purely because of technical limitations? What if the truth is that TFP couldn't figure out how to do caves well enough for the standard of quality they require in their game but someone feels personally offended that TFP was walking on them by cutting procedural caves and most of the people in his circle also felt abandoned because they loved procedural caves so much. Did TFP walk all over them by cutting procedural caves?

Why do you discuss technical problems as a reason to remove great features when the issue is dumbing the game down so more copies can be sold to new players, who don't like sophisticated mechanics?

The Alpha disclaimer warns that a game in development may change into something you no longer are interested in playing. That is the risk of buying into early access.

Serious question: Why aren't all threads/posts where someone complains about changes responded to with a copypaste of the Alpha disclaimer and then closed? "That is the risk of buying into early access, case closed." Nice and easy.

Can recent changes to increase the accessibility of the game really be defined as walking over early supporters when some of those supporters feel the game has never been better, some feel it's changed for the worse but is still fun, some don't care for it unless they use mods, and some won't ever play it again no matter what?

Is that a question? If so, you know my answer. If you disagree, you might explain how and why, please while refering to the actual point, not changes that root in the devs genuine opinion that they improve the game or their inability to solve technical problems. Changes that are being made to sell more copies under the assumption that "all" new players prefer a simple game.

There is such a wide spectrum of responses to the development process and all of us were warned when we pledged our money that the game could change into something we personally don't like.

That's why we don't lawyer up and sue. We can still be upset when walked over, right?

I think we all agree on the fact that the game is being made to be more accessible to a wider audience.

You mean "being changed"..? I thought it was being made as a vision or so, devs had a great idea and wanted to make that one happen. Like artists.

Some feel personally affronted by that and others don't. How much responsibility for being offended does the offended party bear in feeling offended?
When someone offends me and then I find out there was no mean intent and it wasn't an attack the offended feelings bleed out of me almost instantly. Is it enough to know that TFP isn't intentionally attacking anyone by making these changes?

I am not offended, at this point, a hobby that was important to me has been taken away from me, with - afaik - the explanation that potential customers are now more important than I am. That sure is offensive, but only as in adding insult to the injury.

 

[Kubikus]

I'm gonna start by saying these are the ♥♥♥♥tiest forums for getting registered on I've ever seen.

You like things more simple, I assume..?

But I had to come on and say something about the load of ♥♥♥♥ being spouted. Probably not going to make me popular with the "old timers" with lots and lots of posts here so maybe my first and last.I started playing in December on whatever version of the game that was and I've been having a blast. This game has gotten inside my head like no other I have ever played and it is like crack cocaine in game form. I already have over 200 hours. I found these forums and was just lurking reading about the next update and I caught this whole conversation and kept following it after it was moved here tho with all the name changes and shifting around it wasn't easy. Seriously thought the whole thing was deleted when the title got changed...derp

I just don't undestand why this stallionsden character is getting a free pass for being insulting and boorish and the few people who do call him on it get shouted down. He said this about me and peeps like me. I bolded the word all because he keeps saying he never said "all" lol--

"Thats cause all the new players need the answers given to them. Cant think how to make something with out the game giving them the answer."

"All" is really just a hyperbole, not every word one leaves on the internet is well thoughtout, particularly when a text is written with a bit of passion.
Then again, and think about that for a moment, it's also a fact, that it's the or one of the head developer's who wants to "simplify" the game. One could interpret that as him thinking that "all" new players want a game that is much easier than what we had for the past ten years. Another hyperbole, I don't know the exact length of development so far.

and then goes on to continue to be insulting to anyone not exactly like him. its insulting and condescending to say I don't know what I missed.

Not at all, it's just the truth, if you only played since A17 or later, you really don't know what you missed.

Why the ♥♥♥ should I give a rats ass what I suposedly missed out on?

Because what you missed is considered even better than what you consider hearting awesome right now. Even better. Why would you not want something that is even better?

I like what we have now and it's ♥♥♥♥ing awesome

But you don't know what you're missing. No offense.

and definitely replayable enough for me to have played the beginning of the game several times. I played one full playthrough until about day 110 and felt it was starting to get repetitive but I died a lot during that play and since then Ive been starting over every time I die to see what day I can get to without any deaths. They should make that a setting in the options, btw.The first 25 hours of gameplay isn't boring at all and I've played it now about 6-8 times and I'm still not bored so that is some serious replayability right there.

That's very great, now imagine a game, that is EVEN BETTER than this. That is so damn good, that people who have played it say what we have now has no replay value. That's nothing you're even remotely interested in?

If anything it is the very end of the game that starts getting boring and repetitive which is why I decided to start over. As I said, I've died plenty so the game isn't just plain easy. Im not using any mods and don't even know how to add mods anyway and the game is still a ♥♥♥♥ing blast jus the way it is.Anyways, people have been accusing the moderator and others of attacking stallionsden for his opinion but then they're giving him a free pass on insulting me and those like me and I call that bull♥♥♥♥ and I don't care if you've been here since the early days. You old timers don't like it when someone said your boredom comes from playing for so many hours but if you want to say that I need everything handed to me and to be babied then you'll just have to take it when I say go play a new game if the thrill is gone for you! Like, holy ♥♥♥♥--its just a game and games loose excitement after awhile.

But this game did not loose excitement and the thrill, before the devs significantly changed the mechanics. That is how good it was. You have no idea, trust me, I have 1,500 posts.

 

[Roland]

I have 1,500 posts.

Hyperbole.

 

[Kubikus]

Hyperbole.

I'm also counting the troll posts that got deleted.

 

[Roland]

That's very great, now imagine a game, that is EVEN BETTER than this. That is so damn good, that people who have played it say what we have now has no replay value. That's nothing you're even remotely interested in?

Just FYI Fischer: There is no need to have to imagine it. Right click on the game title in your library and select properties. Choose the Beta tab and from the drop down menu that probably says "NONE-- Opt out of all betas" you can select any of the past versions back to around Alpha 9. You can try them out and compare and see for yourself. See how they stack up next to A18.

 

[Stranded_Napkin]

I have to agree that its too simple to get what you need or want. One of my favorite things was mining and the above ground stones that appear for every mineral is taking away my fun of exploring deep mines for my needed minerals. As well a the fact that you can buy everything at a trader, Gyrocopters to Chemistry Stations means less to look forward to in later game stages. the books are cool but some recipes could be locked for a later game stage. In other words there is not much to look forward to in the future and its become a bit more like a FPS with elements of survival, base building and crafting, when it was much better as a survival, base building and crafting game with FPS elements.

Items like the gyrocopter, chem station, and especially the obnoxiously priced solar cells are expensive. Hell, the vehicle parts are expensive. I've made mods that help, i.e. treasures and certain vanilla blocks, but even with all those extra dukes I've run out of money. TFP didn't exactly make them easy to afford. I'd say that the balance is there.

Then, there's the issue of the books. You can unlock everything through books. I see this as inherently balanced. It doesn't unlock levels. You may unlock steel sledges or the smg but they'll be level 1 unless you spec into it.