What exactly contradicts? That I said that this game is also a survival game? I do believe it is a survival game and I also happen to know that many people who play have a difficult time surviving. I don't think the opinion of veterans who have learned all the ins and outs, know exactly how the heat map works, know how to efficiently do everything perfectly to progress can give objective feedback about how difficult or easy it is to survive unless they consciously look at it from a new player's perspective. The default experience is a challenge for survival for new players. One of the most precious resources is time in this game and new players waste a ton of it coming to grips with how to play and what to do-- things people like us just breeze through without even thinking. I think the term "Survival" absolutely belongs in the description for this game.
I'm sorry but I see your argument and Papa's as just a matter of degree. Minecraft has creative mode, survival mode, and hardcore mode. Taking Minecraft as a model being that it is the progenitor of the open world survival game genre I argue that the genre of "survival game" is broad enough to include 7 Days to Die. When you say that death must have real consequences they do. At default those consequences are easily mitigated. But there is a setting for Lose All on Death which can really be a blow and a setback depending on what gear you were carrying. There is no "Reset on death" mode but not even Minecraft has that as part of their Survival game. That is what they call "Hardcore Mode". A17 is definitely going to take the survival threats to a new level and I think you'll enjoy those. But make no mistake, I think you'll quickly adapt and find the game feeling not so much a survival experience again because of your skills. The only way to compensate is to mod the game to be more punishing and more complex and more disastrous for the smallest of mistakes made so that the threat is real again for you. But to make the default game that hardcore would be a mistake. It has to remain approachable by the masses-- and I don't believe that disqualifies it from being called a survival game.
That being said..you and Papa will be sure to be glad that you do take damage when you're hungry and can die. And dying does weaken you quite a bit for a period of time until you recover.
Sorry for the long post in advance... can't help it.... please read? Thanks
I don't think we are 100% on the same page when it comes to the term survival. Certainly, surviving from zombies is, too, a large part of "survival", but any fps/action game could be considered to be survival (which would be wrong), if we account for every aspect of the game's difficulty. Even "Don't Starve" for example, would be considered a top-down action game, if it weren't for its deep survival mechanics (seasons, sanity, hunger etc).
The elements I am talking about won't exactly make the game harder - defending from zombies is much harder already. These elements require some planning, management, thinking - that's what survival games have in common. And I am not talking about making the early game necessarily more difficult when it comes to survival elements - it's the mid/end game tha suffers more. Some examples:
-The need to gather food becomes irrelevant very soon into the game, even before farms, as your food supplies are increased exponentially. I must have given you a headache just from my spoilage posts by now, but spoilage, some farm fine-tuning and the need for fertilizer in order for the crops to keep growing (not making them even more effective) would pretty much solve that problem.
-Getting clean water isn't (and shouldn't be difficult in general) - but it could be something more other than just finding a pot. Boiling making it more safe early in the game is good, but it also becomes an action that requires no planning whatsoever later on. Water filtration could be another layer, with expendable filters requiring you to scavenge/explore.
-Temperature leaves a lot to be desired. While playing a game like Long Dark, the player can almost feel the adverse weather effects it has on your character and not because of the visual effects. More long-lasting effects, more "realistic" in nature and a little more complicated to fight against than just changing a piece of gear. The environment itself too is problematic sometimes - how can someone possibly be dehydrated in a desert filled with yukas?
-Medicine... I've barely had to use it. There is no urgency in curing diseases imo. It would be a miracle not finding antibiotics (or not being already able to make them) during the very lengthy infection process. Bowel problems don't really phase the character at all, food poisoning is negligible because the player will intentionally get poisoned (to eat), at the time when he has to do something that doesn't require stamina. Broken bones, if not being treated, could also use be a little more impactful - it is easy to treat anyways. Certainly death not being impactful played a role in not bothering curing diseases but still they leave a lot to be desired.
-Death. First of all I am really glad that it will have some sort of penalty! Inventory loss was circumstantially impactful, since death can be -even unintentionally- exploited if the player wanted to reset his condition.
-Loot distribution. Even with 25% and 10m days I was getting an overabundance of items. I know this is an ongoing work, but loot lists for some groups of items could be a little more POI-specific and rare at the minimum settings. It is logical after all, such a huge density of loot containers.
-Stuff I am forgetting - haven't played the game in a while.
What I want is not a more hardcore gameplay. Simply put, I just want reasons to do more stuff for a longer time. Reasons to plan my resources and work for my survival needs. And that could be done, almost with the already - rich, but not-so-synergizing-yet - existing content.
PS: None plays MC because of its survival elements - it barely has any, even if the main mode is called "survival".
And A17 is more synergistic as you'll discover. Not eating has a direct and immediate effect on stamina and will kill you if unchecked. Same for hydration. There are actually a number of new ways to contract disease and food poisoning can happen as an accumulation of not eating higher quality foods. I'm sure they'll get to ultimate punishments for death with options and modes but once again I think you know the game too well to understand just how difficult it is for new players and how dismally they are able to survive. True that they get infinite lives but I think that should be set aside as a hardcore mode restriction rather than calling that survival and then putting in a carebear mode. We have already seen that very few people are willing to play the two easier difficulty settings than Nomad. Rather than going down a difficulty level or two they are likely to rage quit and call the game broken.
Can't speak for A17, but I am certainly eager to play with the new systems and a lot of the changes seem intuitive.
Now, about what I wrote above and new players:
I don't know what skills you are talking about, veteran player or not, but I avoid playing on the highest difficulties. That's because of the enemies and bullet sponging though (and it's not like I don't play FPS games, going at it online since unreal 99). The things that I mentioned above have little to do with the difficulty settings themselves. Yes, they will empower the overall difficulty and feeling of urgency, but mostly because of resource management, need for more scavenging and survival needs. If someone like me, who has played the game for a long time avoids the higher difficulties, would you not think that a new player avoids higher difficulties for the same reasons?
My point is that fighting enemies, defending, blood moons, or being in the general vincinity of dogs, are vastly more difficult endeavors (and different in nature) than having to manage your food needs and scavenge for fertilizer, having to prepare/plan in order to visit a harsh biome or really having to stock up on medicine.
