PC Bring back water jars or let us craft them!

[meganoth]

I agree. But I do seem to remember "too easy crafting of explosive arrows" being one of the reasons given for the change. It may have not been an actual reason though, it's not like TFP have explained it detail here and none of us have been at the design tables...

I remember the glue production issue starting with a player who used explosive arrows as his main weapon on horde night asking how or if he can get enough glue for that. I don't remember TFP ever stating this as a reason, I don't even remember them ever stating that they wanted to limit glue production any further, though I could be wrong on that. In fact glue production is already "limited" through the ingredient bones and could simply be further limited by increasing the number needed for glue or having less bones to find in the world.

 

[theFlu]

" 2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it. "

I may be off about it being about explosives, but limiting glue production was absolutely stated as a reason.

 

[meganoth]

" 2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it. "

I may be off about it being about explosives, but limiting glue production was absolutely stated as a reason.

Thanks for the correction. So they wanted to limit glue production and maybe/probably explosives was what they had in mind with OP quantities of things.

If you take coop multiplayer in account then OP quantities could refer to anything that is needed. If one of the players is able to craft a wooden bow then with almost unlimited glue all players can be decked out with a bow. Same with repair kits or full sets of armor or pocket mods

Though anything is already limited by other ingredients as well, gun powder, cloth,  mechanical parts, forged iron, sewing kits. So possibly Madmole wasn't even even refering to specific things but just generally, that their production meant to be limited by glue wasn't limited really and they wanted another angle.

But, just to be clear, since he said early game and you definitely can't produce explosive arrows early game the explosive arrows can't really have been meant by him.

 

[theFlu]

If one of the players is able to craft a wooden bow then with almost unlimited glue all players can be decked out with a bow.

Indeed; which relates to the reason why I brought up explosives at all. If crafting multiple wooden bows is an issue, limit the availability of bow parts. Fix the crafting logically, instead of making everything use rolls upon of rolls of duct tape held together by duct tape and waterproofed by duct tape. It's a cute post-apocalyptic joke, but please don't take it far enough to have to disable lakes to maintain it ...

 

[Ramethzer0]

I'd say this is basically the definition of artificial scarcity; which is a bit of a feat, usually it requires laws to stop people gathering their own lake water, but here it was managed via breaking physics already. Nestle is jelly right now.

There is plenty of water out there to be looted.   Considering that and my own experience at luck at knowing where to look, I find it difficult to entertain those complaints anymore.   The only way I've been able to replicate this issue is to either become a victim of poor RNG, trim my loot settings to the point of nothing, or simply refuse to loot the common places where I know water to be found.

I dont really wanna come off as being this cynical, but I have no other reasons to believe it is anything but a player problem.

 

[meganoth]

Indeed; which relates to the reason why I brought up explosives at all. If crafting multiple wooden bows is an issue, limit the availability of bow parts. Fix the crafting logically, instead of making everything use rolls upon of rolls of duct tape held together by duct tape and waterproofed by duct tape. It's a cute post-apocalyptic joke, but please don't take it far enough to have to disable lakes to maintain it ...

You propose an alternative solution that would only solve one of the problems TFP tried to fix with the water update. So if they would limit the bow parts or make duct tape less ubiquitous for example they still would not bring back lakes as an unlimited water source.

 

[theFlu]

There is plenty of water out there to be looted.

I wasn't arguing about difficulty, and I don't think @drgnkght was either; I was arguing about your opposition to the term "artificial scarcity". This is almost literally a textbook example of the term; "buy all the wells in an area, start selling water to the residents at an inflated price". Here the buying of the wells is the disabling of the lakes and the price is you looting or literally working for the trader for coin to buy the water. Just because the price is "low" doesn't make it less of "artificial scarcity".

You propose an alternative solution that would only solve one of the problems TFP tried to fix with the water update. So if they would limit the bow parts or make duct tape less ubiquitous for example they still would not bring back lakes as an unlimited water source.

Indeed. I'm proposing to fix the thing logically (ie following real world logic as far possible) and even said early ITT it'd be a lot of work. There's no level of completeness I could propose without actually modding it in that wouldn't be subject to "you didn't fix this part yet". If you're worried about the 3 listed reasons, then here:

3) Don't bring back empty jars when implementing the following

2) Fix crafting by not relying on number of duct tape

1) Turn the current "drinking from lake" into a "take water from a lake" which spawns one of the current item "Murky Water". Turn, or make a copy of, the current "Dew Collector" into a "Water filtering station", have it take murky water as input and produce clean water as output, time limited and trader limited. Change the camp fire recipe for water from clean water into "less toxic water" - so you can survive safely on lake water, but don't really want to.

Or, you know, even the requirements are malleable and/or quite poorly met as is; is it Really that important that water survival is a problem when it clearly isn't an issue even now, if just do the Good Boy thing and do some quests?

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I mean MM claiming that people could craft unlimited quantities of items isn´t even true with the old system. While bones aren´t hard to get, you never could craft unlimited quanitities or even large quantities easily in early game. That took quite a while until you got enough bones for that.

And water still isn´t a survival issue. That "reason" is so pathetic seeing how they throw food at us left, right and center and how easy water is if you play a certain way.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I wasn't arguing about difficulty, and I don't think @drgnkght was either; I was arguing about your opposition to the term "artificial scarcity". This is almost literally a textbook example of the term; "buy all the wells in an area, start selling water to the residents at an inflated price". Here the buying of the wells is the disabling of the lakes and the price is you looting or literally working for the trader for coin to buy the water. Just because the price is "low" doesn't make it less of "artificial scarcity".

I think my opposition to it isn't as academic as all that.  I've largely reacted (at least from an internalized standpoint) the sheer amount of saltposting about it, and this is where I feel my cynicism takes over.  I'm just tired of hearing the same complaint over and over being used in an inflationary way by the same crowd that refuses to accept responsibility for their own contribution to the problem.   I can accept this is not a position you are pushing, but tbh the amount of hackle-raising over the subject at large has me really skeptical, but that's on me.

I also REALLY wish we could stick to just one thread, instead of randos just opening a new thread with the same talking points every time, ad nauseum.

 

[theFlu]

I'm just tired of hearing the same complaint over and over

I hear ya, I wouldn't read these myself if it wasn't highlighted as annoyingly unread ...  

I also REALLY wish we could stick to just one thread

Would be nice to have all new ones merged into an existing one, for sure - but that can be somewhat annoying as well, depending a little how well the forum SW handles it. More work for the mods thou. New people will always be making new threads, and a couple of new ones were born while typing this sentence ...

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Ramethzer0 I mean what do you expect people to do if they really don´t like something? And on steam, wich i think you are talking about as the last topic on here is from November,  it´s not the only the same people over and over that keep that topic going with new posts until today (merging is happening pretty fast there). Also a lot on steam are on the same page as me wich is we don´t necessarily want the jars back but we don´t want this system wich forces the trader and heavy looting. 

I think not even the A17 death penalty had such a negative feedback.

 

[meganoth]

is it Really that important that water survival is a problem when it clearly isn't an issue even now, if just do the Good Boy thing and do some quests?

Experienced players here post this all the time, but seem never to be able to grasp that it actually is a problem on par with food and other materials like leather, mechanical parts .... And they also conveniently forget that coop groups, even experienced ones, have a bigger problem with water as well, on par with food

Any experienced player will tell you that finding mechanical parts in this game is not a problem. But you still need to do it, it takes time. And if you are not that experienced it takes more time or even gets you killed or you simply don't find enough to build something you need just now.

No, water is not supposed to be a central problem in this game, it is just supposed to be an average problem.

I am calling myself an experienced player and while I know where to find water when I need it, it IS a resource that I never have enough of in the first days of the game. And when I play in my coop group we also feel a need to concentrate on solving the water problem. Our first money goes to buying as many water filters as we can afford. What are you expecting? Dark Souls?

 

[theFlu]

I am calling myself an experienced player and while I know where to find water when I need it, it IS a resource that I never have enough of in the first days of the game.

Sure, I'll grant that water is limited in the early game with the current design; but it's not something I can work for. It, like everything else solves itself by doing the Good Boy -loop. You just "don't craft" for a couple days and you're set. It's not an interesting problem, it doesn't change my choice of actions in any way, it's not a "game problem". Now I don't even need to craft my own jars and pot to solve it, it just solves via quest spam.

Coops, balancing is its own issue, but coops always have the option to divide into single player groups, so it shouldn't be any harder - if the advantages of group play aren't large enough to feed a base mama, then you can't afford to play in such a way. Don't get me wrong, I think group play should have its own balance, but it's even harder to pin down than solo; and its going to be absolutely impossible if solo is already broken.

But this issue is pre-balancing; the crafting system is broken enough to need to limit lake water from being used. Balancing this system will keep both lakes and crafting broken, thus I'm hoping for changes in crafting, not just balancing of this one. I don't think I'll get what I want, realistically; but I'm talking on a forum, so, that should go without saying.

What are you expecting? Dark Souls?

Dark souls is famous for its realism in nutrition... No, I don't want the game to be SCUM either, with several nutrition types needing to be separately filled. Mostly because that is based on a model of nutrition science that doesn't line up with actual reality, you'll do perfectly fine on just beef alone...

No, I'm not expecting massively difficult water game play; I'm hoping and proposing a system that

- doesn't break survival realism unless absolutely needed

- introduces "playable" mechanics to solve the issues (ie, going for a "water trip" is different from going to a "gun finding" mission)

- does basic survival things on a level where new players will suffer some ill effects, maybe even straight up death

- AND experienced players will most of the time have to actually DO the survival thing too. Not just skip it via quest spam.

 

[BFT2020]

So much passion for an object most people wouldn't look twice at if it was laying on the side of the road.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

So much passion for an object most people wouldn't look twice at if it was laying on the side of the road.

I am gonna say it again here, that´s propably because this whole change along with the magazines smells a lot like "We want to the players to do our POI´s and use the trader a lot." 

The whole reasoning simply doesn´t add up for the glass jars. And the magazines. Well, that´s another story, not even going to bother, just waiting for a mod for that as i don´t wanna play a bookshelf and mailbox looting simulator with hints of cupboard looting.

And tbh instead of trying to make water an issue they should maybe focus more on weather, temperature and food. I mean even in hard survival games water is often a non issue like Subsistence, let alone in a genre mix like for example conan exiles. I can´t remember how it was in Green Hell, but i don´t think thirst was really an issue there aswell.

And the fact that SP is still an all you can drink and only MP got hit hard, makes this even worse.

 

[Gamida]

This probably makes me a min/maxer. I dunno.

The only problem I have with water (and food) is the constant reminder that I am hungry/thirsty.

I know that stamina and health is tied to your food and water levels. (Food for max amount and water for speed it regens)

I like to have at least my stamina as high as possible as early game especially I have to run around a lot and harvest things like wood, stone, etc.

That takes stamina.

Not I am not sure when the hunger/thirst icons show, how much it affects my stamina. It may not be hurting me much at all. But, the thing is in my mind seeing those icons when I am still at least half or more full

of food and water makes me always want to fill up to get rid of them.

Maybe I wouldn't worry so much about food and water if I never got any sign until I at least hit 25% on them.

This is just my personal opinion. Others will have their own.

 

[theFlu]

Not I am not sure when the hunger/thirst icons show, how much it affects my stamina.

My problems with annoying icons went away when I decided to treat it as follows:

1) Your thirst meter basically reduces your sta regen linearly. If it's not full, you're basically losing some already. (This might not be exactly correct, but it's closer to reality than what the warning icons suggest.)

2) You get an extra ~20% regen from having the "recently drank" buff on you. That buff lasts for minutes if you are already at "full thirst". Using a bottle of water whenever I expect to use reasonable amounts of sta, just for the buff, gives me as a side effect a full thirst bar all the time ... no more annoying icons

 

[Vaeliorin]

1) Your thirst meter basically reduces your sta regen linearly. If it's not full, you're basically losing some already. (This might not be exactly correct, but it's closer to reality than what the warning icons suggest.)

The stamina penalties kick in at 75/50/25 percent thirst, if I understand correctly.  The problem is that it doesn't tell you there's a problem until you hit 50%, when you've been suffering a penalty since 75%.  I always try and stay above 75% thirst, but sometimes I don't notice it's gotten below that so I don't realize until I start running out of stamina.

 

[Rotor]

 I always try and stay above 75% thirst, but sometimes I don't notice it's gotten below that so I don't realize until I start running out of stamina.

I run bottom 25% most of the time LOL, unless I am going into a "situation"...or BM.

Otherwise, just caps of water no bottles .

 

[meganoth]

Sure, I'll grant that water is limited in the early game with the current design; but it's not something I can work for. It, like everything else solves itself by doing the Good Boy -loop. You just "don't craft" for a couple days and you're set. It's not an interesting problem, it doesn't change my choice of actions in any way, it's not a "game problem". Now I don't even need to craft my own jars and pot to solve it, it just solves via quest spam.

Exactly, **like everything else** (meaning most other crafting materials) it solves itself by looting (or in this case building collectors as an alternative, compare to food which is nearly the same). I would be glad if there was a more interesting problem to solve, crafting 500 jars is not my idea of "more interesting" though.

Coops, balancing is its own issue, but coops always have the option to divide into single player groups, so it shouldn't be any harder

Coop has many advantages that far outweighs that initialy you have some more problems with food and water. Dividing up into single player in this case would mean everyone had to go to a different town and use a different trader to get an advantage from it, not just run to a different POI.