PC Bones extroadinarily difficult to farm

[RipClaw]

You aren’t forced. You have the opportunity if you want to be swimming in bones.

We seem to have very different definitions of what it means to swim in bones.

In Alpha 16 I had whole boxes full of bones. Per horde I could "harvest" about 500-750 bones and when I needed glue I produced 500 or 1000 units. That's what I call swimming in bones

Now I have only 300 bones in stock after 154 hours of gameplay and only because I visit some POIs once a week where I know there are dogs or zombie bears and hunt every animal I run across. I use the glue and duck tape as sparingly as possible. I even repair my auger only section by section to avoid wasting any repair kit.

My base in alpha 16 consumed about 1500 shots of shotgun ammo per horde for the shotgun turrets. I used a lot of glue to make the paper. In alpha 17 it is not possible to build such a base because the consumption is simply too high. And to find 1500 paper per week is rather unlikely. Yes I know that the paper mill exists but as soon as the paper is dismantled there it won't come back. Unless you happen to have a quest there and the whole building resets.

I have of course found ways around the problem by using traps that only consume materials that I can easily replace. But still I find it problematic that bones are a scarce good and no one has thought about an adequate replacement.

 

[Jackelmyer]

That's called having real choices where you have to actually decide between A or B instead of getting to have both A and B. You also mentioned "wasting" points in your other thread on perks you don't really want I guess but feel you have to have. I think that the designers of games do a good job when they make 2-3 things feel necessary but you can only get 1 of them. Tough choices are my kind of fun.

Is it really a choice when I need these guns with mods to carry forward in the game and I can't maintain the one high quality gun because I'm burning through repair kits too quick?

Is it really a choice that I'm burning through food too quickly to to avoid the stamina saving point spends? And I may not be able to progress well in the game without those points being spent as I'm getting owned by zombies because my character has developed asthma?

I dunno man. That sounds like a government's version of choice.

"You don't haaaave to have a job. I mean... People totally live out of cardboard boxes and get arrested for loitering. Totally a choice."

To me... what makes something defined as a "requirement", in some cases, is noting how often something is "chosen". I 80% of us are "choosing" to have a job, that seems like a job is a requirement in life.

If 80% of us are choosing stamina skills. That seems like a requirement.

 

[Cirion]

I think there is a difference between choices and viability. Putting a gun to someone's head and then saying give me your wallet or I kill you, that's a choice, but the latter option is not really viable, lol.

For example - specializing in INT, with level gates being in the game, is a non-viable specialization, since even with specialization, you still can not get higher end equipment at a reasonable pace, which means combat specialization will defeat an INT specialization completely without a contest.

Everything needs to have pros and cons, I get that. But combat specializations seem to have pretty much the lowest cons and the most pros, which is why everybody does it, given that combat is mandatory (at least, on the 7th day). INT specializations could manage... if there weren't level gates. For EX - you aren't going to be able to have iron tools by day 7, even if you spend all your points on INT, unless you have boosted exp rate / long enough day duration. Conversely, combat specialization will be doing quite well by day 7, definitely far more than the INT specialized guy. There are no level gates to combat, which you means you can be exceptionally powerful long before feral or radiated zombies show up.

 

[Ringkeeper]

Is it really a choice when I need these guns with mods to carry forward in the game and I can't maintain the one high quality gun because I'm burning through repair kits too quick?

You ever heard of clubs and bows ? Not a single repair kit needed. You can still pretty much one-shot any small zombie with a club.

Yes, needs a bit more practise to kill zombies and not get killed yourself, but works.

For example - specializing in INT, with level gates being in the game, is a non-viable specialization, since even with specialization, you still can not get higher end equipment at a reasonable pace, which means combat specialization will defeat an INT specialization completely without a contest.

I specced in INT . Yes, you have level gate for stuff , but you can make steel f.e. earlier then steel tools.... and you find Steel tools enough if you go looting. No need to make them yourself.

It doesn't matter if your tool is level 1 or 6... the only difference is, how often you have to repair it.

For bones... you have road kills every couple meter, you have animals, dogs (if you didn't mod them out), vulture. With a hunting knife you get a nice amount even without huntsman.

Yes, you can't have thousands of thousands of bones or anything else any more. Would be also way to easy... the last couple alphas where no struggle to survive after day 7. And even now you have latest on day 21 enough food/water/mods if you go a bit of looting. Heck, if you sell all guns to the trader and not scrap them like me you have enough dukes to buy everything.

 

[Maynard69]

You ever heard of clubs and bows ? Not a single repair kit needed. You can still pretty much one-shot any small zombie with a club. Yes, needs a bit more practise to kill zombies and not get killed yourself, but works.

I specced in INT . Yes, you have level gate for stuff , but you can make steel f.e. earlier then steel tools.... and you find Steel tools enough if you go looting. No need to make them yourself.

It doesn't matter if your tool is level 1 or 6... the only difference is, how often you have to repair it.

Clubs and bows are fine for normal zombies, bunch of rads in enclosed dungeon and ur screwed.

Also that is not the only difference. A tool with 1 mod does crap damage compared to a tool with 5 mods.

 

[Cirion]

It doesn't matter if your tool is level 1 or 6... the only difference is, how often you have to repair it.

This is another critical flaw of the new system in A17 / INT system IMO. Sure, you can install mods in Q6 weapons, but Q6 items just don't have the same feeling of usefulness overall as they did in A16, especially since you don't have enough mods to put in a whole bunch of Q6 items until near end-game. So, even if there were no level gates, making stuff early has no benefit, whereas specializing in combat has immediate benefits that are OP in comparison. Whereas in A16, even just being able to make Q200-300 items had a significant impact, because you didn't need mods to get the increased damage and being able to make better armors really helped in surviving. Honestly, higher tier armors are even more useless than the higher tier weapons and tools now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but higher tier armors don't get more armor as you put mods in them, right? Whereas, Q600 steel armor was extremely effective in A16. Mods should be just that - mods. Not requirements to get the increased inherent "Latent" damage potential out of a gun that it had in A16 or the latent armor potential out of armors.

 

[Jackelmyer]

You ever heard of clubs and bows ? Not a single repair kit needed. You can still pretty much one-shot any small zombie with a club. Yes, needs a bit more practise to kill zombies and not get killed yourself, but works.

Talk to me about clubs when the game doesn't lock up for 1-2 seconds grinding on whatever it's grinding on and then spit a zombie out right in my face.

If the game ran smoothly, and I know it's not fair versus your point to add game performance to the issue, but this would be a different conversation.

If hitboxes didn't just randomly disappear for a few seconds and then reappear... This would be a different conversation.

You're absolutely right that there are solutions that reduce bone dependencies. And I could "get gud" in using them. But in the state of the game, if I don't have a heavily modded shotgun at least running into a POI by day 30+, stuffs gonna get real with just Feral zombies alone. Let alone radiated zombies.

 

[Roland]

The fact that the perk does absolutely nothing the first few levels kinda erks me also. Seeming those points are literally wasted unless you go higher in the tree.

This really is important feedback. Madmole does want each perk purchase to bring noticeable change. I'll pass along to him that perk levels 1-3 of huntsman are not yielding noticeable results when purchased.

The rest of what people are calling for is more problematic. There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown in the form of crazy analogies. My only point is that choices should be tough and the devs should be slow to make those choices easier just because some people think they are being forced a particular way. Rip just admitted that in A16 he had boxes and boxes full and could get 500 - 700 from a single horde. That's probably too much. But, of course, opinions will vary.

 

[Cirion]

Upon reflection, I realized my post kind of derails the thread... sorry about that... but my points still stand

Roland, if you're referring to my post as crazy analogy, I think you agree with me that level gates are silly, I've seen you post your opinion in this manner. I think that would solve most of the problems with INT specializations right there. But I still think

- Weapon, tools, and armor should get increased damage/armor from higher quality (like they did in A16) and mods should be just that, mods and nothing more nothing less

- Less emphasis should be put on levels in general, at least while level is the primary function of gamestage increase (I think more penalties need to be put on combat specializations to encourage people to explore other specializations. Like, I've mentioned this in the past - make it so gamestage only increases on zombie kills and not from overall EXP)

Personally, and let me know if you feel the same, but I think in a perfectly balanced game, there should be basically an even split among players who prefer certain specializations and all specializations should have EQUAL viability.

For example, a balanced game would have 20% of players prefer focusing on each one of the five main attributes, respectively, IMO. An imbalanced game is one where 75% of players prefer focusing on combat, and 25% on INT (as example). All I am saying, is there should be equal balance of pros and cons for each specialization. We could make a poll to see for sure what people prefer specialization in, but I would not be surprised if the vast majority of players prefer the combat specializations.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Man Roland... Alright.

Well crazy analogies aside, thanks for passing along the feedback on the first few levels of the skill. I'd agree with the lack of return on especially bone with using the perk.

 

[Maynard69]

This really is important feedback. Madmole does want each perk purchase to bring noticeable change. I'll pass along to him that perk levels 1-3 of huntsman are not yielding noticeable results when purchased.
The rest of what people are calling for is more problematic. There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown in the form of crazy analogies. My only point is that choices should be tough and the devs should be slow to make those choices easier just because some people think they are being forced a particular way. Rip just admitted that in A16 he had boxes and boxes full and could get 500 - 700 from a single horde. That's probably too much. But, of course, opinions will vary.

Because gore pile only give 1-2 bones, increasing that by 40% does nothing. I think increasing their rate to 2-4 when harvesting with a knife and allowing vultures to drop bones on par with dogs would satisfy everyone. Maybe more bones with better bladed weapons too, so that machete have some value over hunting knife for harvesting purposes.

Those changes alone I think would alter things so the perk has more value for the first few levels.

Gore piles dont take extra damage from bladed weapons currently, you dont even get the animation like you are harvesting with a bladed weapon. Changing this would be good I think. (edit, actually now that I think it through, huntsman may not be effecting gore piles at all currently)

Not sure about the math, just guesstimating.

 

[skullpoker]

"OP"

Increasing the -rare-yet-necessary- items drop chance by 2-5 times would work (from bones to brass junk to scematics). Or increasing the chance of bones by about 10x off of any corpse while leaving the chance of a random loot bag close to current levels. Meaning that we would see many more bags drop from zombies, but most of them would be rotten meat and bones to simulate the old Gore Block's loot and XP.

If 1:5 zombies dropped a similar amount to harvesting 5 zombies it would give a strong balance between performance and loot, or 1:10 zombies dropped 10x the bones as 16.4 harvesting.

 

[Roland]

This is another critical flaw of the new system in A17 / INT system IMO. Sure, you can install mods in Q6 weapons, but Q6 items just don't have the same feeling of usefulness overall as they did in A16, especially since you don't have enough mods to put in a whole bunch of Q6 items until near end-game. So, even if there were no level gates, making stuff early has no benefit, whereas specializing in combat has immediate benefits that are OP in comparison. Whereas in A16, even just being able to make Q200-300 items had a significant impact, because you didn't need mods to get the increased damage and being able to make better armors really helped in surviving. Honestly, higher tier armors are even more useless than the higher tier weapons and tools now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but higher tier armors don't get more armor as you put mods in them, right? Whereas, Q600 steel armor was extremely effective in A16. Mods should be just that - mods. Not requirements to get the increased inherent "Latent" damage potential out of a gun that it had in A16 or the latent armor potential out of armors.

I wouldn't call it a flaw since they have another 300+ mods planned. Sometimes it's tough being an early access tester when features aren't fully realized yet. With internal testing we had to play with the weapons and tools with zero mods because they weren't hooked up until around October about a month before the experimental release. Did we tell the devs the design was flawed because there were no mods? No, because we saw the potential and the same is true now. More mods will be coming. The developers want the guns and armor and tools and vehicles to be fully loaded with mods and for players to definitely want tier 6 items to use with with all their mods. Heck, they want you to have several of each with different mixes of mods.

I'll agree that that the current system is critically flawed if it ships with the current skeleton crew of mods.

 

[Roland]

(edit, actually now that I think it through, huntsman may not be effecting gore piles at all currently)
Not sure about the math, just guesstimating.

This is probably worth posting as a bug in the bug thread just to get their attention on it. You are probably right.

 

[Odetta]

Why cant bones be found in trash? I mean my trashcan is always filled with large femurs.

 

[Cirion]

I wouldn't call it a flaw since they have another 300+ mods planned. Sometimes it's tough being an early access tester when features aren't fully realized yet. With internal testing we had to play with the weapons and tools with zero mods because they weren't hooked up until around October about a month before the experimental release. Did we tell the devs the design was flawed because there were no mods? No, because we saw the potential and the same is true now. More mods will be coming. The developers want the guns and armor and tools and vehicles to be fully loaded with mods and for players to definitely want tier 6 items to use with with all their mods. Heck, they want you to have several of each with different mixes of mods.
I'll agree that that the current system is critically flawed if it ships with the current skeleton crew of mods.

Ok... I suppose that's fair.

Keep in mind that as players, all we have is what is front of our faces at any given point in time. You likely have far more insider information as to what is in the pipeline to be developed. I however can only judge what I can immediately play and see, so that's what I base my comments upon.

If it's going to be addressed, then that's good to know.

I still think it is silly though that higher quality items magically get more damage by installing mods though...

 

[jdm311]

I still think it is silly though that higher quality items magically get more damage by installing mods though...

Like adding paint to a weapon... Unless it is lead-based...

 

[Maynard69]

I still think it is silly though that higher quality items magically get more damage by installing mods though...

Right? Why would a sharper blade do more damage? Or a braced club be able to hit harder? Voodoo

 

[Cirion]

Right? Why would a sharper blade do more damage? Or a braced club be able to hit harder? Voodoo

that's not what I said at all.

the problem is that non-damaging mods increase damage, like paint for example.

 

[RipClaw]

Rip just admitted that in A16 he had boxes and boxes full and could get 500 - 700 from a single horde. That's probably too much. But, of course, opinions will vary.

I had chests full of them because I am a hamsterer and have neatly dismantled every wandering horde and every horde and kept the bones. Most of the other players didn't take the trouble or just threw away the bones carelessly.

The reason I got so many bones from the horde is that I play with 32 zombies at the same time and my base was designed in such a way that the goreblocks were spread over a large area.

But this amount of bone was also necessary when you look at what I used the bones for. In alpha 16 the shotgun turrets were introduced. But they used so much ammunition that alpha 16.2 or 16.3 introduced a recipe to make enough paper out of glue, wood and murky water. This recipe hasn't changed in alpha 17 but the glue is missing to make similar amounts of paper.

And I also made a lot of duct tape and used it because I used a lot of repair kits to keep my auger running.