PC [Basebuilding] Is it even worth to build anything but wood structures ?

beHypE

beHypE

Refugee
With the new zombie AI and block damage, it was quickly obvious that building squary-castles where all 4 sides are made out of steel, traps, barbed wire... is pretty useless. The zombies shred through structures super easily, and the best "defense" is to cheese the AI by building open paths so they actually don't attack walls, but instead get funneled in a death area.

Having that in mind, is it even useful to build anything but wood structures ? In the end, if the point is to funnel them into areas so they don't shred blocks, it doesn't really matter what type of structure you use.

Just some early day thoughts, maybe I'm missing something here.

 
Even if you can control their AI with wood, you still want fairly durable blocks in case damage causes a disruption. I can't pin it down, but at some point the AI will decide it won't go around and decide to make its own shortcut. High HP boundaries discourage shortcutting by smashing. That's one of the big reasons I always double-up my doors. Normally doors are pretty low hp, but having two in succession significantly curbs attacking my own in-out path.

You want two things: You want to focus the enemy horde towards a fairly manageable combat area so you don't need to worry about 360 degree defense, but also provide them enough variety in access route so that you don't overwhelm static defenses like spike traps, barbed wire, electric fences, or blade traps. All of these take damage as they deal damage, and pushing too many zombies through can destroy them all, at which point you have NO defenses in that area.

For example, in my base:

I have a barn. One side is next to a POI, and one by the road. These are my 'rear' sides and I just have a perimeter wall and high-hp doors.

On the sides where I have room to work with, I built a trio of three 2-deep, 6-wide pit traps where I have VERY obvious holes in my perimeter wall. One for right-side zombies, one for left-side zombies, and a center one mostly as a fallback. These pits are filled to ground level with spikes so that zombies REALLY want the freebie route, thus become mired in a pit, but as the spikes dissolve from dealing damage and being randomly attacked, they become trapped, their friends route over fresh spikes, and I give them a greek fire bath. Once the trap is 'spent', they start piling into the central failover pit where the same thing happens.

After that, of course, is basically them running around in my barn while I quickly run out of ammo. I'm not in any particular threat, they tend to not cause much damage, but for a SP effort, I make a good accounting of myself with the resources I had to throw at them.

I'm seriously considering, once I have access to electric fences, to add some 'bug traps' along their normal pathing routes around my base to soften them up. Basically 8 electric fences zig-zagged across a 3-4 block wide tunnel where they normally run by. I'm also seriously considering an extended perimeter wall to include my exterior workspace and farms to have better control of the approach angles, and possibly add more bug traps.

 
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Yeah I've got a five tower design with walkways to each tower.

Underneath is spikes with barbed wire on top.

When they get close to a wall I run to another tower and drag them across the spikes.

I've got a roof over my head for vultures and the spiders can't get up there.

It's working.

I have a long ways to go to say it can work on a day 98 horde but I can't see why it wouldn't.

Yes we have to make adjustments but I don't see why we can't build big like we did in A16.

We're just going to have to be a little more clever and also build walls a bit thicker.

I think a month from now we'll see all sorts of big builds.

People are already figuring out this AI.

 
We used to be able to build big, sure, but we also had better defense systems in play and a worse pathing algorithm where zombies would pretty much missile straight into your base. You needed a strong, 360 degree passively defended base because you were basically being attacked simultaneously from any angle at a focused point.

By 'improving the AI', they sorta made it easier to manipulate. We're still fighting a 'focused point' defense, but we get some say in the matter on where that is, thus allowing us to spend resources a bit smarter. The downside is that resources are much harder to get and our defensive options have been dramatically reduced. There's a lot of trades, like being stuck with self-destructing defense blocks, but being blessed with molotovs and much more abundant guns and ammunition.

Its a new system, and the key to any zombie apocalypse is understanding how they tick and using it against them.

 
... but being blessed with molotovs and much more abundant guns and ammunition.
Its a new system, and the key to any zombie apocalypse is understanding how they tick and using it against them.
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Yeah this is the first Alpha I have ever used Molotov's.

Been playing since A9.

You kind of hit the bullseye there.

It's us who have to change.

We can still do the things we want, we just have to be clever about it and adapt.

 
Yeah this is the first Alpha I have ever used Molotov's.Been playing since A9.

You kind of hit the bullseye there.

It's us who have to change.

We can still do the things we want, we just have to be clever about it and adapt.
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I think the problem is most players are used to being lazy, and relying on passive defenses, now that you have to actually do something yourself its like people turned into chickens with their heads cut off. SPikes honestly don't do much anymore their damage seemed severly nerfed, not to mention they no longer destroy zombies legs, actually hell most of the dismemberment seems to be gone in a17 come to think of it. I've not been able to chop a zombies arm or legs off anymore.

 
With the new zombie AI and block damage, it was quickly obvious that building squary-castles where all 4 sides are made out of steel, traps, barbed wire... is pretty useless. .
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Depends on difficulty. We've had to lower it to 3 in A17 (from max), but at difficulty 3, all our normal base designs are working fine. We are on day 25 for the record. Base wasn't even harmed on day 21 horde (other than losing a few spikes). This is just a Steel 9x9 box with Iron Bar cage on top and 3 rows of spikes around it. No problem at all. Gamestage was 120.....tons of zombie cops etc

That said, difficulty 3 is far too easy for being out on the world, yet prefect for horde night. I think they have a balance issue of some kind.

 
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You have a point. Most of the complaints would be better to understand if people reported at what difficulty they were playing on. The difficulty slider makes a huge difference now. I went in expecting all hell to be broken loose but I don't play on the harder difficulties and everything seemed fine? Then I thought "Aha, it's guys playing on insane who are used to playing on insane and not feeling afraid isn't it?"

So in essence it's guys playing hard mode complaining the game is hard. My advice to them is to turn the slider down until you don't feel that way perhaps? Maybe it's just me...

 
Even if you can control their AI with wood, you still want fairly durable blocks in case damage causes a disruption. I can't pin it down, but at some point the AI will decide it won't go around and decide to make its own shortcut. High HP boundaries discourage shortcutting by smashing. That's one of the big reasons I always double-up my doors. Normally doors are pretty low hp, but having two in succession significantly curbs attacking my own in-out path.
You want two things: You want to focus the enemy horde towards a fairly manageable combat area so you don't need to worry about 360 degree defense, but also provide them enough variety in access route so that you don't overwhelm static defenses like spike traps, barbed wire, electric fences, or blade traps. All of these take damage as they deal damage, and pushing too many zombies through can destroy them all, at which point you have NO defenses in that area.
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Your point is well taken and you can survive very well in a wood structure if you plan it right but it is still worth it I think to use stronger materials. Stronger materials will survive zombie mishaps where they do end up hitting a block. Also they will be destroyed slower by vomiting cops & vultures. Also depending on what you are going to build there is structural integrity to keep in mind. You can space concrete a lot further apart than wood.

Sometimes a few seconds lies between victory and base collapse.

 
while i originally made my first base which was more or less just 2 raised 4 pillar platforms or just tall tables about 6x6 and about 5 blocks high, i have a solid 10x10 flagstone base that goes up 8 blocks and then i built 2 floors on top of that base. I made an enclosed box, 8x8 in the center, leaving walking room around the box. I did this so i can have my storage crates protected from zombie cops, explosions and vomit. Other than that, you would be right in that you might not need more than wood to survive yourself, but if you want your loot to survive, set up a vault of some kind or put it offsite from where you plan to fight.

Contrary to several people saying spikes are fairly worthless, I have my base surrounded by a row of 5 or 6 deep spikes all around the base and they do a lot of damage to a horde. I upgraded a few to metal, and i only have to replace a handful if i control where they come from. I haven't made barbed wire yet, but i'd like to set a few up around my stairs.

edit: i think the key about the spikes is to either dig a hole and lower then to ground level or (much easier to do) just set up wooden ramps all around your base so the zombies go up 1 block and then have a nice sea of spikes waiting for them at the new "ground level". Essentially, it's a moat of them.

 
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I think the problem is most players are used to being lazy, and relying on passive defenses, now that you have to actually do something yourself its like people turned into chickens with their heads cut off. SPikes honestly don't do much anymore their damage seemed severly nerfed, not to mention they no longer destroy zombies legs, actually hell most of the dismemberment seems to be gone in a17 come to think of it. I've not been able to chop a zombies arm or legs off anymore.
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It has absolutly nothing to do with lazyness, skill or difficulty. It has to do with the new useful base design sucking. OFC, it's subjective, Im not saying it sucks for you. What Im saying is that not likeing it has nothing to do with lazyness or difficulty. It's terrible, for me, that the good base design now is a maze of not really important material. That is not a base for me. It's cheesing the AI.

It's not lazyness or difficulty, it's just unfun. Again, for me and others that dont like the new system. A design based on cheesing pathing is not a coold design.

There were polls about the most expected feature of a17, and I always voted for the new AI. I love building, and I was tired of the old small room of poles to shoot from inside that was so effective. But we couldnt built more advanced defense buildings bc it was easy to "break" the AI so the zombies couldnt reach us. But now it's much worse. Now we NEED to relay on cheesing the AI as the recommended base design for survival.

WTH, the most expected feature turned out to be the wost.

For me, the "main goal" of the game, was building a realiable base. Now those bases are ridiculos wood mazes. No thanks.

 
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I think the problem is most players are used to being lazy, and relying on passive defenses, now that you have to actually do something yourself its like people turned into chickens with their heads cut off. SPikes honestly don't do much anymore their damage seemed severly nerfed, not to mention they no longer destroy zombies legs, actually hell most of the dismemberment seems to be gone in a17 come to think of it. I've not been able to chop a zombies arm or legs off anymore.
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Problem of active defences, is that when you are offline, other player can still afk on your roof. Player, who might be happy, if your base would be destroyed. Like a griefer. Multiplayer games NEED passive defences. Otherwise, you would have to rebuild again and again and again.

 
Just out of curiosity (and partly OT): Does the land claim block also affect traps?
Regards

Tantalus
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Only from direct block dmg. Like if somebody uses pickaxe on them. They still degrade at the same speed.

 
Contrary to several people saying spikes are fairly worthless, I have my base surrounded by a row of 5 or 6 deep spikes all around the base and they do a lot of damage to a horde. I upgraded a few to metal, and i only have to replace a handful if i control where they come from. I haven't made barbed wire yet, but i'd like to set a few up around my stairs.
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Completely agree. In fact they are "too good". On our difficulty 3 setting if a screamer comes by and attacks the base they are basically dead to the spikes before we can even react and climb up to our shooting gallery. This is actually taking some of the fun out of things as I used to enjoy nailing screamers and their hordes, now we just ignore them as we know the spikes will one- or two-shot them before we even get a shot off, no more enemies crawling about on top of your spikes.

 
I made my base on the top interior floor of the collapsed brick building (like 5 storeys up) and closed some of the passageways with flagstone that was eventually upgraded to reinforced concrete by around day 28. I also built a 4x4x6 tower with a truss catwalk around the top and 4-5 rows of spikes, and that's where I spent horde night. It worked very well and only collapsed on Day 7. Although I never survived any of the horde nights (mostly due to stupidity and the overpowered vultures which have since been fixed), only once did they make it all the way up to my real base after I respawned. Once the door came down I died again quickly, but respawned away from my bedroll and just ran around until dawn. My base was pretty much untouched other than the door. My precious loot was fine.

I've since restarted with B208 but am only on Day 2 right now. My plan is essentially the same: My base with all my stuff will be as high up as I can get it (ideally in the same kind of POI) to be outside of the hearing range of wandering hordes on the ground, and with many gaps and doors and other deterrents to access. I will build a fighting tower (with a roof to keep out the vultures) surrounded by spikes for enduring horde nights.

 
You don't HAVE to build cheese bases.. You just have to build a bit differently, is all. Take this one I built, I made a tiny wooden starter-shack and got caught up in doing quests and such I didn't realize it was day 6. Threw up some spikes and spikes did do good I decided to add a cobblestone wall around it. I've found layering works like a charm, I've done 3 similar builds so far. Square core, spikes on wall and on ground 1-deep. Wall, spikes on that wall, on ground one deep, etc.

https://ibb.co/KrskKZ0

https://ibb.co/yWFLJz4

https://ibb.co/6bnSZkJ

https://ibb.co/rx4VgZ1

30 min days, ~12 spawn (i can't remember exactly the setting lol 3 higher than normal), Warrior difficulty and nightmare run speed. THat was after the horde, barely lost any spikes and I think only one or two blocks too damage. Faced a couple cops, too.

 
I have watched base designs as simple as that one being defended successfully.

Yes, you will loose a bunch of spikes - they are consumables - but if you pay attention and defend your base it's very much doable.

Some players are still stuck in A16 mode where you could safely ignore zombies who were swinging at the walls. The super log spikes would get them eventually. Maybe contemplate sauntering over and repairing that wall once you have finished your tea.

The hysteria over zombies being able to destroy walls at all is quite comical. =)

 
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