PC Bandits and PvP

[meganoth]

great. so If I take you at your word, this should be a quick refining of what they had, shouldn't take another year...any idea if that is true?

Not really. What Roland said was that a lot about bandits is already finished. So they can spawn in the game, look like bandits, attack you and act just like zombies or NPCs would (this has been used by modders already so we know). And he said that the game works with bandits at reasonable FPS, so optimizations are not necessary (but always appreciated, especially by console users I would guess)

What probably is not finished is some of the AI stuff that would make bandits something new, not just a zombie in different skin. What probably also isn't finished is 1) where and when they will spawn, 2) balancing, 3) quests and events specially dealing with bandits (if there are plans for those).

 

[Roland]

great. so If I take you at your word, this should be a quick refining of what they had, shouldn't take another year...any idea if that is true?

If what is true?

You're taking me at my word?
Only you can answer that.

3.0 will be a quick refining of what they had?
No. It's picking up where they left off on development. They were not at the point where they were basically finished and only had refinements left to do but they definitely have done a lot of work. Models are done. Rigging for all models is WIP and AI is WIP. Many POI's have hooks implemented to make them bandit hideouts. Bandit-related quests are not done. Reputation and factions are not done. So refinement hasn't really started yet.

shouldn't take another year?
Who knows? Going by historical results...yes. At least a year.

 

[HammerDano]

If what is true?

You're taking me at my word?
Only you can answer that.

3.0 will be a quick refining of what they had?
No. It's picking up where they left off on development. They were not at the point where they were basically finished and only had refinements left to do but they definitely have done a lot of work. Models are done. Rigging for all models is WIP and AI is WIP. Many POI's have hooks implemented to make them bandit hideouts. Bandit-related quests are not done. Reputation and factions are not done. So refinement hasn't really started yet.

shouldn't take another year?
Who knows? Going by historical results...yes. At least a year.

I think you reacted to meganoth's post not mine...I quoted your last message to grandpa. hope that clears that up.

you guys will argue both sides of that...to grandpa: they work...you are full of poo . to me: they will take as long as they take...they are not where they would like them.

Part of me wants to know how you can be soo casual about saying it will be at least another year when TFP had this down on the roadmap to only take 6 months. Yes...they don't meet their own deadlines, but, this seems to verge on something else to me.

 

[Riamus]

Part of me wants to know how you can be soo casual about saying it will be at least another year

If you have been around here long enough, you realize that getting worked up about release dates doesn't get you anywhere other than upset. It is far better to just accept that it will take time. Many people can't do that, though. But for those who can, it is a far better experience.

 

[zztong]

great. so If I take you at your word, this should be a quick refining of what they had, shouldn't take another year...any idea if that is true?

I don't know that I'd assuming anything was quick. It sounds like a recipe for disappointment.

My own thinking is that while Bandits as a feature might be quite far along, TFP is likely to slow-burn their approach to finishing bandit AI and also have a bunch of experimentation to do behind the scenes. Then they'd have a number of other things to accomplish. For instance, Bandits might need models and animations. Bandits might require their own unique POIs that would have to be created. Those POIs might need some new custom assets, like barricades for bandits to hide behind. Those assets might need some new supporting code so they AI can figure out where to stand and what posture to be in. Then part-way through somebody might have a neat idea that lets existing POIs treat all zombie volumes as if they were bandit volumes and just changes the mission type and suddenly there's more code and a couple more assets needed. Then maybe the POI designers start to use more Parts in the POIs and need a way for the POI (when it is being placed) to know if it is for zombies or bandits so it knows to place the barricade instead of an overturned refrigerator and a pile of trash...

At the same time, there's bug fixes and optimizations, and some changes from lessons learned about Storms leading to 2.1 and 2.2. There's maybe somebody doing some research in Steam Workshop support and laying some groundwork. There's some debate about how to implement the story and how to overhaul traders that they never quite finalize because that would be for 4.0 so it isn't pressing. There's holidays, vacations, a little bit of staff turnover. There's task dependencies. There's ... Oh look, 6 months have passed. We better start trying to tie up these loose ends folks!

Another year? Perhaps.

 

[HammerDano]

If you have been around here long enough, you realize that getting worked up about release dates doesn't get you anywhere other than upset. It is far better to just accept that it will take time. Many people can't do that, though. But for those who can, it is a far better experience.

they sold the game to a different base...you are going to have to accept that. They sold the game to console based on the roadmap...and NO "all dates subject to change" is not a forever and evergreen excuse...like "several", some words are open to some interpretation, but, there is a limit.
I have said myself that since we are going to have to wait, if we had dedicated console servers, the game is in okay shape. but, without dedicated? As a console guy, I just want what we were told we would get. I can't even get these guys to tell us IF they applied for dedicated servers for console with 2.0
Yes, sony and ms don't want internal requirements or conversations revealed. BUT...TFP absolutely can and should address it in broadstrokes, which is allowed. The game was sold with these things in the conversation...so are not off topic...if spoken in general terms. Combined with other conversations on here, it makes me wonder if they have no intention of applying for dedicated until after 4.0

 

[HammerDano]

I don't know that I'd assuming anything was quick. It sounds like a recipe for disappointment.

My own thinking is that while Bandits as a feature might be quite far along, TFP is likely to slow-burn their approach to finishing bandit AI and also have a bunch of experimentation to do behind the scenes. Then they'd have a number of other things to accomplish. For instance, Bandits might need models and animations. Bandits might require their own unique POIs that would have to be created. Those POIs might need some new custom assets, like barricades for bandits to hide behind. Those assets might need some new supporting code so they AI can figure out where to stand and what posture to be in. Then part-way through somebody might have a neat idea that lets existing POIs treat all zombie volumes as if they were bandit volumes and just changes the mission type and suddenly there's more code and a couple more assets needed. Then maybe the POI designers start to use more Parts in the POIs and need a way for the POI (when it is being placed) to know if it is for zombies or bandits so it knows to place the barricade instead of an overturned refrigerator and a pile of trash...

At the same time, there's bug fixes and optimizations, and some changes from lessons learned about Storms leading to 2.1 and 2.2. There's maybe somebody doing some research in Steam Workshop support and laying some groundwork. There's some debate about how to implement the story and how to overhaul traders that they never quite finalize because that would be for 4.0 so it isn't pressing. There's holidays, vacations, a little bit of staff turnover. There's task dependencies. There's ... Oh look, 6 months have passed. We better start trying to tie up these loose ends folks!

Another year? Perhaps.

I agree with you, it likely will take "as long as it takes"...they did lie about following the roadmap...those two thing are true. The roadmap was a lie they told to get console hype.

 

[warmer]

I think it's a bit exaggerated to assume we will ever be fighting 20 bandits at the same time unless you are trying to take out Dukes stronghold. Even still, they likely won't spawn 20 in at the same time. I expect Bandits to come in groups of 1-6 max. They aren't stupid and mindless, and will require a ton more attention and focus than a zombie.

 

[Riamus]

I agree with you, it likely will take "as long as it takes"...they did lie about following the roadmap...those two thing are true. The roadmap was a lie they told to get console hype.

How is it a lie? It specifically stated dates are subject to change. They never promised they would meet those dates. Now, I agree that they are very far behind. My own guess was that 2.0 would release back in March instead of Q4 last year, but if you work in software development, you know that bugs can be a challenge to predict. You might get by without any major bugs and hit a release date, or you may have major bugs that are hard to diagnose and fix that can delay you a long time. They can do like some devs do and release stuff on time even if it is a mess and very buggy and not working. Or they can wait until they get most bugs fixed even if it delays things. I prefer the latter.

Still, 2.0 is what you seem interested in because of dedicated servers, so delays on 3.0 or 4.0 shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[zztong]

I agree with you, it likely will take "as long as it takes"...they did lie about following the roadmap...those two thing are true. The roadmap was a lie they told to get console hype.

Perhaps. It's been too long since I watched those Dev Streams. My foggy memory leads me to believe they did kind of say they were going to meet those dates, but that they also waffled on that all in the same stream. I don't remember the owner's names or which is which, but my impressions were they were being genuine and human. It isn't corporate polish and I find that refreshing.

I don't see the one owner agonizing over specifics and he comes across as an optimist. Then there's Prime who hosts the stream sitting right there giving definite "please don't say that" advice. You get Faatal on these boards saying "I wouldn't give a date." I just come to the conclusion the owner -- under the spot light; thousands of people watching; ever the optimist; willing to wing it -- slips into the "I think we can do that in 6 months, right?" to which Prime shakes his head and laughs. In the end a completely conflicted message and I think a signal.

So I take that and their track record together. I rationalize it as the roadmap is an aspiration, not a promise. But I can certainly see why people see the roadmap as a promise. You can point to an owner saying "I think we can make those dates" and call it a lie.

 

[HammerDano]

How is it a lie? It specifically stated dates are subject to change. They never promised they would meet those dates. Now, I agree that they are very far behind. My own guess was that 2.0 would release back in March instead of Q4 last year, but if you work in software development, you know that bugs can be a challenge to predict. You might get by without any major bugs and hit a release date, or you may have major bugs that are hard to diagnose and fix that can delay you a long time. They can do like some devs do and release stuff on time even if it is a mess and very buggy and not working. Or they can wait until they get most bugs fixed even if it delays things. I prefer the latter.

Still, 2.0 is what you seem interested in because of dedicated servers, so delays on 3.0 or 4.0 shouldn't be a big deal.

All of you PC brethren, preach the TFP Gospel "it takes as long as it takes"...and when they change directions..."it was always supposed to be like this"
and I've heard it said more than a few times "you should have done your research...you should have known what TFP are like".
now, clearly, buyer beware is good advise. But, the roadmap was taken by console players to be something they intended to follow...not just the content, but, the timings.
I still don't think most console gamers took that to mean they would not fall behind a few weeks at most a 2-3 months.
We came back because the game was close to going gold. that means close to done in console circles, these guys are still trying to make their ideas work...with no actual clue how long that will take or what other wild goose chases they don't know they are going to go on. So while the PC base has, seemingly, resigned itself to this ad infinitum...just for a "free" update year after year. I just don't accept it. all of you give estimates in the, at least one year per update range...some advise 18 months to avoid disappointment. So If you fine people, all assume it will take 1 year to 18 months PER UPDATE...and there are three updates...that's 3-4.5 years. that is a long way from 18 months for the original roadmap. So please stop saying all dates subject to change is valid excuse for everything. you knew it was not going to happen...and you should have known a lot of people wouldn't know any of this at all.
the bs about dedicated servers for console just pisses me off. we should already have them...or have found out that we won't get them. they should have already applied...and faatal's explanation about it chaps my ass.

 

[Roland]

I think you reacted to meganoth's post not mine...I quoted your last message to grandpa. hope that clears that up.

you guys will argue both sides of that...to grandpa: they work...you are full of poo . to me: they will take as long as they take...they are not where they would like them.

Part of me wants to know how you can be soo casual about saying it will be at least another year when TFP had this down on the roadmap to only take 6 months. Yes...they don't meet their own deadlines, but, this seems to verge on something else to me.

I didn’t respond to Meganoth. I responded to you just like I am doing now. See how it’s your name in the quote field both times?

What I said to Grandpa doesn’t contradict what I said to you. Bandits as entities in the game were running fine in the game long before now. There were bandits and zombies at the same time. So his opinion that the coding can’t presently handle bandits is 100% wrong. What I said to you is that there is still more development to be done with the feature and that they are not to the quick refining stage.

Personally, I don’t think they will need a whole year but I can’t be sure and since you see lies everywhere I’m hesitant to say less than a year

 

[Riamus]

Whether or not you accept that dates can change, it doesn't make it a lie when they very clearly stated the dates could change. If you are upset that the dates are so far off, I get that. But that doesn't make it a lie. It just means you interrupted l assumed something that wasn't correct. Whether or not that assumption is a good assumption doesn't make them liars.

In any case, it is clear that you are upset about it. I didn't blame you. I would prefer that they set appropriate dates rather than best scenario dates. But as I said, I also prefer that they release stuff that is on good shape and ready for release even if it takes longer than so what some devs do and release garbage just so they are on time.

If you think about it, right now you are focused on dates and are upset. For most of us, we don't focus on them much anymore and so aren't upset. We have other games to play or just keep playing this as it is. Would we like a faster release? Of course. No one suggests otherwise. We just are willing to be patient instead of getting upset with every late release. And let's face it, almost every release is late. If you are new to that, you are less forgiving. But when you are used to it, there isn't any reason to get upset about it. Why have a bad day for something so trivial? And it has nothing to do with PC versus console, other than that PC players have had to deal with this for years instead of under a year.

They could have waited to release on console until it was finished or until 2.0 or 3.0 or whatever. But I know a lot of console players who would have hated that and are happy they can play the game regardless of the current limitations. They would rather that than to not be able to play the game at all.

And if Sony and Microsoft allowed alpha versions to be listed, it would have released to console as Alpha 22. Since that want allowed, we have this version 1.0 that doesn't make sense, but there isn't any use complaining about that either.

 

[theFlu]

Personally, I don’t think they will need a whole year but I can’t be sure and since you see lies everywhere I’m hesitant to say less than a year

For a real-time AI, that sensibly utilizes cover in a freely modifiable 3D space, where the AI doesn't even know the rotations of the blocks? I'll give them a year to "give up" and then another to "implement modified POIs for bandits, with pre-set cover markings and some landclaim system to prevent players cheesing it too hard."

I may well be wrong, but I'm not optimistic on this

 

[Roland]

You’re not wrong to not be optimistic for shorter update schedules.

 

[HammerDano]

I didn’t respond to Meganoth. I responded to you just like I am doing now. See how it’s your name in the quote field both times?

What I said to Grandpa doesn’t contradict what I said to you. Bandits as entities in the game were running fine in the game long before now. There were bandits and zombies at the same time. So his opinion that the coding can’t presently handle bandits is 100% wrong. What I said to you is that there is still more development to be done with the feature and that they are not to the quick refining stage.

Personally, I don’t think they will need a whole year but I can’t be sure and since you see lies everywhere I’m hesitant to say less than a year

you responded to the same narrow quote that he did and acted like I had not given context. and **** you too....if you think it's okay for you to be a jerk you better be man enough to accept it back.

The AI is barely functioning now, the "bandits" are not good enough and that draws between 2-3 zombies worth of operational resources...but that's before any intelligence gets added...that has to have costs...making them draw even more resources...so it's not even close to unreasonable to question the viability of bandits...or how long they are going to take. You ARE arguing out of both sides of your mouth. Telling grandpa you know they work and telling me you know that they don't. which is it Schroedinger?

 

[BFT2020]

The AI is barely functioning now, the "bandits" are not good enough and that draws between 2-3 zombies worth of operational resources...but that's before any intelligence gets added...that has to have costs...making them draw even more resources...so it's not even close to unreasonable to question the viability of bandits...or how long they are going to take. You ARE arguing out of both sides of your mouth. Telling grandpa you know they work and telling me you know that they don't. which is it Schroedinger?

He didn't say two contradicting things. Roland stated the game is optimized enough for bandits to be introduced. He also stated that development work has already begun on them and that a lot of progress has been made, but tempered that by stating that they still have quite a bit of work left to do.

Saying that they still have a lot of work ahead of them to introduce bandits into the game does not mean that they do not work in game. Saying that there is still work to be done on the AI for bandits also does not mean that they do not work in the game.

faatal has stated that bandits are around 2-3 zombies in terms of processing, but you are claiming that it is going to be a lot more. I don't know about anyone else, but I would take the word of the actual game developer in terms of what bandits are going to cost in terms of performance over anyone else.

 

[theFlu]

faatal has stated that bandits are around 2-3 zombies in terms of processing, but you are claiming that it is going to be a lot more. I don't know about anyone else, but I would take the word of the actual game developer in terms of what bandits are going to cost in terms of performance over anyone else.

He seems like a great dev; but it's AI. Predictions about AI perf are best left until AFTER you have the features you want, and they'll still remain predictions.. He's guessing 2-3, he might be wrong by a factor of pi or g, and we couldn't tell the difference

 

[HammerDano]

He didn't say two contradicting things. Roland stated the game is optimized enough for bandits to be introduced. He also stated that development work has already begun on them and that a lot of progress has been made, but tempered that by stating that they still have quite a bit of work left to do.

Saying that they still have a lot of work ahead of them to introduce bandits into the game does not mean that they do not work in game. Saying that there is still work to be done on the AI for bandits also does not mean that they do not work in the game.

faatal has stated that bandits are around 2-3 zombies in terms of processing, but you are claiming that it is going to be a lot more. I don't know about anyone else, but I would take the word of the actual game developer in terms of what bandits are going to cost in terms of performance over anyone else.

yes...he did, and so are you. If the bandits are not in a usable state they are not ready. So telling Grandpa, that they "could" introduce them now and the game would still function, is a very long way from being able to judge: A) how much resources they will draw B) how useful they will be BECAUSE...they don't know if they can make them "work" yet...that product does not even exist...what they have takes an estimated 2-3 zombies worth. and it does not function the way they want...yet. People are making defences on nothing...vapour. so yeah...somewhere in there he is making a contradictory statement. An 18 month roadmap makes me even fucking angrier now...there is no way they thought they would get all this work done that fast.

 

[HammerDano]

He seems like a great dev; but it's AI. Predictions about AI perf are best left until AFTER you have the features you want, and they'll still remain predictions.. He's guessing 2-3, he might be wrong by a factor of pi or g, and we couldn't tell the difference

he seems like a petty prick to me, but, IF he can get the job done who cares.

I agree with you, except the part about if we would know, given the eloquent descriptions of how lacking the CPU and GPU of consoles are compared to the requirements to run this game on PC...it will be fairly evident if they exist or not.