Just a heads up for anyone making the forge in B233. You now need 5 duct tape and 5 nails to make bellows in addition to the original wood, short iron pipe, and leather. So don't scrap any nails you find before making the forge or you'll have to find some more or find a working forge to make some.
PC B233 Forge
- Thread starter Cheatz
- Start date
Viktoriusiii
New member
If all of this was in A16 I wouldnt have batted an eye...
If it would have been released at the start of A17 experimental, I wouldn't have cared...
But NOW after they removed levelgates AND made forges require int 5... I absolutely hate it because I know they just want players to play without a forge for longer! For new players, this might be fine... but for everyone who has played back when the forge was locked behind an rng book, we absolutely LOVED beeing able to make the forge as soon as possible... and now this...
I don'T think anyone really waits this long and just looks out for a forge poi anyways on day 1...
(and now they remove working forges from pois, just you watch)
beHypE
New member
Oh, my, god. They simply can't make it right can they ?
Damn, it's an amazing leap forward to actually gate things behind tougher recipes instead of just arbitrarily level gating stuff. If you desperately want that forge day 1 just add a modlet to give you an early storage box with 5 nails inside, or hell, just summon one in with the admin tools.
There's a dozen things I think A17 could/should do better but not having a Forge day 1 definitely is NOT one of them.
Viktoriusiii
New member
don'T get me wrong dude! As I said... before it got so absolutely obvious that they don't want players to have fun, I would have loved this change! Right now it just feels even more punishing and crawling.
Either you make it require 2 intelligence again and lock it behind recipe costs (duct tape requires glue or finding it and nails require finding a forge or finding the nails) or you lock it behind levels. What I disliked was that they left EVERY perk basically at the same requirement as it was before (with levelgates) only the forge, a quality of life thing (because everyone gets the poi forges anyways the only thing is that you can actually choose your poi you like) they set back 2 more levels.
Its not that its harder... I know lvl 5 now is easier to get than lvl 3 with levelgates. Its just that they dislike ppl having the forge early SO MUCH that they will do everything to keep it from happening. :-/
As I said: otherwise I would have liked this change.
Either you make it require 2 intelligence again and lock it behind recipe costs (duct tape requires glue or finding it and nails require finding a forge or finding the nails) or you lock it behind levels. What I disliked was that they left EVERY perk basically at the same requirement as it was before (with levelgates) only the forge, a quality of life thing (because everyone gets the poi forges anyways the only thing is that you can actually choose your poi you like) they set back 2 more levels.
Its not that its harder... I know lvl 5 now is easier to get than lvl 3 with levelgates. Its just that they dislike ppl having the forge early SO MUCH that they will do everything to keep it from happening. :-/
As I said: otherwise I would have liked this change.
beHypE
New member
So let me get this straight, you like the change but "refuse to like it" because overall they try to set a pace that is too slow for you ?
Damn, that's primary school logic my dude ! "I would have eaten that candy if you didn't ask me to eat my plate first, but since I had to eat my plate I just don't want the candy anymore because I'm mad for something else!"
Damn, that's primary school logic my dude ! "I would have eaten that candy if you didn't ask me to eat my plate first, but since I had to eat my plate I just don't want the candy anymore because I'm mad for something else!"
Morloc
Arch Necromancer
Please provide me the reason(s) that "they" don't want players to have fun.
In fact, you don't even need to tell my why TFP doesn't want us to have fun, you can just tell me in general why ANY developer would not want the players of their games to have fun.
Since your premise is "absolutely obvious", you should have no problem with this. If you cannot come up with a reason, may I suggest that you reexamine your conclusion.
-Morloc
Also, anvil is 1000 iron and 100 clay now and locked behind forge and hammer. But! Rank 1 of forge and hammer is only INT 4 in b233 unless my UI was lying to me.
Edit: oh, and anvil is not required for forged iron either.
Edit 2: I see, you get forge at 4 but iron tools at 5 since there are now 5 ranks. So, yeah, still INT 5 plus two points for iron tools.
Edit: oh, and anvil is not required for forged iron either.
Edit 2: I see, you get forge at 4 but iron tools at 5 since there are now 5 ranks. So, yeah, still INT 5 plus two points for iron tools.
Last edited by a moderator:
Morloc
Arch Necromancer
...and my Christmas question for you will be....
Please tell me why a developer would strongly and violently force fun on their terms? Does this help a developer? Does it sell more games? Does it increase their street-cred?
Just to be clear, when you say that "they also strongly and violently force fun to be had only on their terms", you're not referring to that thing that developers do when they make a game in their vision while REGULARLY LISTENING TO FEEDBACK FROM THEIR PLAYERS as they fine-tune it....right?
More to the point, if Sandy wants sticks in the game, but Stacey doesn't want sticks in the game, TFP makes a decision moving forward. If they add sticks, ONE WHOLE HALF of their feedback has been ignored...no, not ignored, completely snubbed. Stacey runs off crying and posts that she hates everyone, TFP sucks, and she'll never buy another game. Stacey makes sure that she doesn't run off right away though....she let's everyone (we're all against her after all) know that she's been #WRONGED!!!
-Morloc
FranticDan
Well-known member
I'm all for a slower progression, and the less hand holding the better in my opinion. What's the point of stone tools if you have day 1 iron tools?
Besides, I'm used to much slower leveling where you average 1 a day but right now I'm averaging 3 a day so progression is quite fast.
Besides, I'm used to much slower leveling where you average 1 a day but right now I'm averaging 3 a day so progression is quite fast.
To be fair it was a slightly tongue-in-cheek response, but I have at times in the past believed that TFP are somewhat reluctant to embrace different playstyles. An example would be swinging the nerf bat hard on underground bases with tunnel-boring zombies that would make Musk shed a tear of pride, stamina and tool changes making digging much harder in general and finally, as I understand it, changes to the structural integrity of terrain blocks. You WILL face the 7 day horde, and you MUST ENJOY IT!
They also pushed iron tools back...
TFP:
- (A17) we're going to gate the forge so players can't reliably get iron before level 20
- (B221) actually players are getting to 20 really fast...lets slow down levelling to stall off that benchmark level
- (B231) well lets remove level gate so players can get forge early if they want
- (still B231) not THAT early! whoa! we're pushing forge back to INT 5 and making stamina tougher so they have a harder time getting forge early
- (sneaky B231) also, lets sneak in nails and duct tape to the forge recipe! hah! now they need to find a forge, to MAKE a forge (reliably). hilarious!
- (B233) ok ok fine, you can get your forge back at INT 4...but we're adding a new rank of the forge perk to restrict iron tools, and THAT'S still at INT 5...so you can get your forge earlier right? even though making effective use of it is now 1 point FURTHER away...
its so flip-floppy....level gate...double down on level gate...remove level gate...start making the soft gate harder...make the soft gate easier, but make use of it harder...
The worst thing has to be the stealth changes all over..."here's your forge, but we changed the recipe to require something EVERYONE scrapped before and can't be crafted without said forge"....then "here's your forge" *tries to craft iron item* "WHOA THERE DUDE! you can't use the forge like that anymore...yet."
TFP:
- (A17) we're going to gate the forge so players can't reliably get iron before level 20
- (B221) actually players are getting to 20 really fast...lets slow down levelling to stall off that benchmark level
- (B231) well lets remove level gate so players can get forge early if they want
- (still B231) not THAT early! whoa! we're pushing forge back to INT 5 and making stamina tougher so they have a harder time getting forge early
- (sneaky B231) also, lets sneak in nails and duct tape to the forge recipe! hah! now they need to find a forge, to MAKE a forge (reliably). hilarious!
- (B233) ok ok fine, you can get your forge back at INT 4...but we're adding a new rank of the forge perk to restrict iron tools, and THAT'S still at INT 5...so you can get your forge earlier right? even though making effective use of it is now 1 point FURTHER away...
its so flip-floppy....level gate...double down on level gate...remove level gate...start making the soft gate harder...make the soft gate easier, but make use of it harder...
The worst thing has to be the stealth changes all over..."here's your forge, but we changed the recipe to require something EVERYONE scrapped before and can't be crafted without said forge"....then "here's your forge" *tries to craft iron item* "WHOA THERE DUDE! you can't use the forge like that anymore...yet."
Personally, the forge was never really a gate for me in A17. I've been fortunate enough that either my starting trader or the house closest to the trader, which I have made my home, has had a working forge in it in every single game I've done thus far (one for every build). Hell, in some cases, the house is literally right across the street from the trader.
What I have been gated on is what to do with my forged iron. In the b221 game, after I made the anvil, grill, and some forged iron for repairs and iron doors, I just fed it ore daily and made forged iron till I hit 20 and purchased forge and hammer. Then that stockpile of iron got put to use.
What I have been gated on is what to do with my forged iron. In the b221 game, after I made the anvil, grill, and some forged iron for repairs and iron doors, I just fed it ore daily and made forged iron till I hit 20 and purchased forge and hammer. Then that stockpile of iron got put to use.
Viktoriusiii
New member
+1 to all of that
@Morloc:
obviously TFPs want the players to have fun. I just feel they do not know their playerbase/the game they are making.
Yes I cannot see in their heads. So please keep that in mind.
But nearly every change in A17 is "anti fun". And yes fun is personal. BUT:
-leveling and progression is so much slower than A16
Yes you can argue that this is meant to give players more to do. But its not the right kind of progression. They didn't slow down ressourcegain/raise blockcosts (4 wood for one block is sooo cheap), which would make basebuilding slower again, no! They slowed down how much you can do (via stamina and locked tools). They slowed down the only thing you can do: Farm and scavenge!
-Nothing really rewards you anymore. Back in the day, if I kept using my sledgehammer, by day 40 I was a monster!
If I kept looting, I got awesome loot lateron. This is obviously something debatable, but they removed such a key feature just because THEY think players will have more fun. There was no outcry in A16 about learning by doing! It was in A15 where it was a completely new feature that was completely unbalanced. And then they removed it again.
-zombies will always get to you if you try anything but cheese (at least in the first 7-14 days) yes there might be 1-2 strategies that are not cheese, but overall, a normal defense doesn't work anymore. which brings me to
-spikes. Yes they were unbalanced and too strong, but they removed it and left a hole in the overall gameplay.
Basically:
they do things THEY think the game should be played. And instead of making small incremental changes, they completely overthrow the system to fit THEIR playstyle.
They do not think before they change stuff. The Singleplayer/Multiplayer difference is only one change. WHY is there no singleplayer option?
Why don't you divide up the xp between parties, instead they multiply the xp. Spikes were an incremental part in basedefense, not because they were overpowered, but because they were the only semi-permanent way to damage zombies.
Now you have metal spikes, which still break after 4-5 zombies. Yes you can slow them down with barbed wire, but that is not the same.
They now nerfed (justified yes, but only to show the trend) bladetraps so that they break multiple times on hordenight.
There are SO MANY issues that all stem from the problem that they do not care what players want to do (every survival game incentivises you to get out of the dark ages as quickly as possible) but actually grab you by the balls and force you to do things over and over and over (I was sitting 4hours on a bunker with a quality 4 pickaxe and I only got about 4x12x4. That is insane! This is WoW levels of farming. I don'T play to work! I play to forget work!)
The game was a free do what you want, but be ready on hordenight, kind of game.
Now its a "try and farm zombies until you have enough inventory space, enough stamina and enough money to actually get what you need from the trader! What? You have no perks in health or crafting? Well you should have spezialized differently then haha!" kind of game.
You do not play to progress, you grind to grind a bit better, only to cheese the AI anyways.
We have a winner, folks.
I mean, when you have 14+ months development on an update and almost zero of it was end game content and every design choice is subtractive from "normal" gameplay to prolong the early game...
BTW, I love quests, POI dungeons, and vehicles but none of that gives me something new to do at end game.
Edit: One of the "additions" from all the changes to the forge, anvil, and perks is that you can't make a grill until you have Hammer and Forge 1 thus unless you find a grill, your rank 1 Master Chef grilled meat recipe is locked behind a 4 point investment into INT plus 1 for Hammer and Forge rank 1. So, for 6 perk points and 1000 iron for the anvil... you can finally grill meat on your campfire.
Last edited by a moderator:
