PC Awful zombie spawn positions

[Boidster]

Here this will show zombies magically appearing very well.  Watch Kickz intro to his video where the zombies aren't there then pop the show up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWBvePVkvhg

at 16:21 he goes on a bit of a discussion about zombies spawning in.

Thank you! That POI is house_old_mansard_01 and when I played the POI in a normal game, I got the same behavior as the start of the video. So I loaded it into the POI editor I notice that the spawn volume's floor is right at the top of the ladder you climb when coming up:



Normally, when following the One True Path through a POI, the sleeper volumes and sleeper zombie positions are such that you never notice them spawning. This particular volume needs to be one block lower down, so it triggers as you are coming up the ladder before your head is high enough to see the roof. I think this is a particular problem for sleeper volumes that you climb up into, since it's your feet, not your head, which trigger the volume. This explains why even when I was just barely into the Shotgun Messiah smelter room (in god mode) the zombies were in place and ready to drop.

I think I'm more in agreement now with @ZehMatt about POI volumes specifically (not so much about horde or buried quest spawns - those behave about as I would expect, given the context). I'm okay with the jump-scares - they weren't my favorite addition to the game, but I get why they were added and what sort of gameplay TFP are going for. But assuming that the main reason for having sleeper volumes at all is for performance (i.e. you don't want to spawn in all Higashi Tower sleepers at once!), then somehow the volumes need an expanded border area where the zombies can spawn in before the player will see them (and without dropping through ceilings, if that is the jump-scare-du-jour). They use tricks like hiding them behind walls or stacks of boxes, but that isn't really effective when climbing a ladder like above, or if you choose (as I often do) to deviate from the One True Path.

I don't think this is a hardware/driver issue at all. You can see the volume borders in the editor and see exactly how they behave in a real playthrough.

I'm going to go edit that house_mansard_01 to see if I can fix the ladder issue. Just for academic purposes.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Thank you! That POI is house_old_mansard_01 and when I played the POI in a normal game, I got the same behavior as the start of the video. So I loaded it into the POI editor I notice that the spawn volume's floor is right at the top of the ladder you climb when coming up:

View attachment 13547

Normally, when following the One True Path through a POI, the sleeper volumes and sleeper zombie positions are such that you never notice them spawning. This particular volume needs to be one block lower down, so it triggers as you are coming up the ladder before your head is high enough to see the roof. I think this is a particular problem for sleeper volumes that you climb up into, since it's your feet, not your head, which trigger the volume. This explains why even when I was just barely into the Shotgun Messiah smelter room (in god mode) the zombies were in place and ready to drop.

I think I'm more in agreement now with @ZehMatt about POI volumes specifically (not so much about horde or buried quest spawns - those behave about as I would expect, given the context). I'm okay with the jump-scares - they weren't my favorite addition to the game, but I get why they were added and what sort of gameplay TFP are going for. But assuming that the main reason for having sleeper volumes at all is for performance (i.e. you don't want to spawn in all Higashi Tower sleepers at once!), then somehow the volumes need an expanded border area where the zombies can spawn in before the player will see them (and without dropping through ceilings, if that is the jump-scare-du-jour). They use tricks like hiding them behind walls or stacks of boxes, but that isn't really effective when climbing a ladder like above, or if you choose (as I often do) to deviate from the One True Path.

I don't think this is a hardware/driver issue at all. You can see the volume borders in the editor and see exactly how they behave in a real playthrough.

I'm going to go edit that house_mansard_01 to see if I can fix the ladder issue. Just for academic purposes.

Thank you for the thorough explanation. This is what I was trying to imply in my post, but I didn't feel like going into such detail.
So many are thinking that this is some code issue or pc performance issue.

 

[Boidster]

Well it is kind of a code issue, in that I think sleeper volumes are maybe a bit more crude than they need to be for a more seamless experience. I'm 100% certain TFP are aware of this, but maybe they just don't have resources to recode this part of the game.

I edited that house_old_mansard_01 POI to drop the floor of the volume down 1 block so it covers the top block of the ladder. This had the effect of:

a) all zombies are definitely spawned on the roof before I can see them and

b) they all wake up right away as I'm climbing the ladder and the buzzards especially will get to me as I'm still climbing

I checked the volume's properties and it has xuiSleeperVolumeTrigger=Attack which - I learned today - means exactly what it sounds like - if you activate the volume, the sleepers attack immediately. I changed that to 'Active' and then I got the behavior I wanted - zombies on the roof, but not attacking until I make noise.



Probably some judicious tweaking of sleeper volumes could fix some, but not all, of the spawning-in-your-face issues. I don't know that there is a real solution, under the current sleeper mechanics, for people coming in from outside the One True Path. From the air, for example, for this rooftop. There is just no way to avoid the sleepers popping into view without making the volume reach to the top of the sky and also many blocks radius around the POI. Don't think that makes sense.

 

[Reckis]

@Boidster I wonder how difficult it would be to add some kind of trigger radius (with configurable sizes, of course) to sleeper volumes? I know next to nothing about programming so this might be a totally silly concept.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

From the air, for example, for this rooftop. There is just no way to avoid the sleepers popping into view without making the volume reach to the top of the sky and also many blocks radius around the POI. Don't think that makes sense.

Yes, that is a problem. They've hidden zombies in things on some rooftops, but some do exist with this problem.
I'm hoping they either stop this rooftop madness, or make it so that volumes can trigger an activated/deactivated boolean switch on other volumes. You could then activate the rooftop volume if and only if some other volume is triggered along the desired path. Otherwise, the rooftop volume would be deactivated coming from the sky, and no zombies. Being that they came from the sky, there could be a volume to detect that coming from that direction, which could activate a volume below the roof, and those spawned zombies would come up some stairs at you instead.

 

[Boidster]

@Boidster I wonder how difficult it would be to add some kind of trigger radius (with configurable sizes, of course) to sleeper volumes? I know next to nothing about programming so this might be a totally silly concept.

It is not a silly concept and while I was a (non-game) programmer for the first 15 years of my career I don't really know anything about the particulars of how sleepers and sleeper volumes are coded in the game so I can't say how easy it would be. ZehMatt has apparently reverse-engineered the source code so he might be able to comment.

I'm hoping they either stop this rooftop madness, or make it so that volumes can trigger an activated/deactivated boolean switch on other volumes.

Yep, this is similar to Reckis' (and my own) idea on it. Basically a sort of pre-load of volumes before you really get too close to them. I wonder if they could have volumes load up within a 16-block spherical radius without destroying performance. In a POI like that house, essentially the entire house would load up as soon as you entered the door, but also when you get within 16 blocks of the roof the roof zombies would spawn. Probably still visibly popping into view, but I don't know if that's avoidable.

In something like Higashi Tower, most of the zombies on the floor you're on, plus some on the floor or two above, would be in place and ready to go in case you decide to bust through walls instead of following the path. The volumes would still have their own trigger actions (zombies attack!) but the entities would already have spawned in, dormant.

<shrug> All very easy to say, probably harder to code and even if it could be fixed in code there are 700? 800? POIs that might need to be touched. Lots of work even if it is fairly straightforward work.

 

[Solomon]

Ok, so you've listed off bare minimum stats for the CPU's, and haven't listed a single GPU that meets recommended specs.

Go ahead an name one other game that's as demanding as this one. I challenge you to find one. Especially one that supposedly runs without issues on your systems.

That's fine though. Here's one of my recent test builds.

Motherboard: Intel DG33BU
CPU: Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.4GHz (4c/4t)
RAM: 8GB Dual-Channel DDR2 @ 800MHz
GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 770 2GB Twin Frozr Gaming OC
Storage: 1TB WD Black
Speccy

Now in this machine, the difference between a bloated system and an optimized system was 45FPS for bloated, and 60FPS optimized in a18. In a19's borked b169 update, it was 36/55. I can test it again this afternoon and I'm sure we'll see that 55 go up quite a bit due to recent optimizations.

Do I have zeds spawning in front of my in POI's? Sometimes. When I'm monitoring system usage I see that there is definitive peak in CPU and RAM allocation when this occurs. Given that the PC is at min spec, and I'm pushing the limits of the video settings for the hardware, I understand why it's happening. If I lowered the resolution from 1080p to 720p, and adjust the graphics a bit it's no longer an issue. Why? Because the CPU has to work less, and there is lower RAM allocation.

So some questions for you here.

1. Do you have any PC's that actually meet recommended specs?

2. Have you fully excluded the client from security software?

3. Have you cleaned up these computers and shut down all unnecessary background tasks? (I mean since they don't meet recommended specs, it's basically a given that you have to.)

4. Have you actually looked at the minimum recommended system requirements?  (Not minimum required. That just means you can start the game and play it with probably 30FPS.)

Okay before anything what are the actual recommended specs? Because when i check the steam page or the systemrequirementslab it says i meet the minimum and the recommended settings for this game:

4gb video card ram: check

3ghz or faster quad cpu: check ( Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz )

12gb ram: check i have 16gb

2. Yes, i do that for every game i plan to play multiplayer on.

3. I clean regularly and remove the background tasks.

4. See first question, unless theres another page showing the games actual requiements what i not yet found then no. I have not.

Sidenote: I entered the map i play on and after this strange "black blocks what dont actually exist" error showed up i gone into the factory to look around there were no zombies on the pipes but i gone out and activated the "pois" command to get rid of those annoying black blocks and the zombies simultenously spawned as the command went live.

 

[Kalen]

Okay before anything what are the actual recommended specs? Because when i check the steam page or the systemrequirementslab it says i meet the minimum and the recommended settings for this game:

Looks like you meet the recommended specs, at least according to this

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/3998-support-faq-information-and-common-solutions/?tab=comments#comment-47968

"For GPU reference, I am currently assuming a Geforce 650 or equivalent for minimum, and a GTX 660 Ti or higher for recommended."

Personally, I'm running with an i9 9900K, 32 GB ram, and a Geforce 2080 GTX and I have, rarely, seen zombies pop in right in front of me.

 

[SylenThunder]

This is part of the contention I have with the listed specs. They give some information, but the data is way too generic. However if it was more detailed, 3/4 of the people reading it wouldn't understand it.

The intended CPU for minimum recommended would be like a 4th or 5th gen Intel, not a 2nd gen. Even a 3rd gen would run circles around your 2nd gen. RAM would be a minimum DDR3 1333. Minimum recommended GPU has 4GB VRAM. That post needs to be updated.

 

[Roland]

I guess like anything else the inability to suspend disbelief has a variety of sensitivities and triggers for different people. 
 

I just count myself lucky to be able to easily have fun and enjoy the game without being ripped out of immersion by so many factors. Some of you try so hard to not enjoy yourselves. 

 

[ZehMatt]

I guess like anything else the inability to suspend disbelief has a variety of sensitivities and triggers for different people. 
 

I just count myself lucky to be able to easily have fun and enjoy the game without being ripped out of immersion by so many factors. Some of you try so hard to not enjoy yourselves. 

Imagine the old Mario games had enemies suddenly pop into existence, I bet no one would have liked the game as much as it they did. Its a bit different just knowing they are "off-screen" vs "may or may not show up"

 

[JCrook1028]

4gb video card ram: check

GTX 750 Ti Memory Specs:
 
2048 MBStandard Memory Config

So no, you don't meet specs. You only have 2 gig.


 
 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Minimum requirements on steam also say you need 2GB dedicated graphic memory and a dual core with 2.4GHZ. Really needs an update, in the forums and on steam.

There is a propblem with the sleeper volumes. Red Mesa at the entrance and the Shotgun Messiah outdoor shooting range are impossible with stealth. No matter wich gear and skills they always wake up when i am still really far away even when gear and skills for stealth are nearly maxed. There is other POI´s where this happens too. No idea if this is related to Z´s spawning in your face tough.

 

[Roland]

Imagine the old Mario games had enemies suddenly pop into existence, I bet no one would have liked the game as much as it they did. Its a bit different just knowing they are "off-screen" vs "may or may not show up"

I was more talking about complaints of zombies in rafters and closets. Popping into existence on top of you would be a bug— though one I have not experienced myself now for a few alphas. 
 

I like your design concept of zombies moving in from the edge of the rendered area but not as a replacement for sleepers. I like houses pre-seeded with sleeper zombies but would like for new zombies to spawn at the edge and move in as I killed each sleeper.  
 

Of course, if you just increase the biome spawns in general it doesn’t take very long for lots of zombies in the area to sense you in the POI and start barging in so you kind of get this simply by increasing biome spawns. 
 

I made the mistake of increasing them too much (8x) as I found it almost impossible to clear a POI before I ended up with dozens of new zombies milling around in the house. 

 

[Boidster]

There is a propblem with the sleeper volumes. Red Mesa at the entrance and the Shotgun Messiah outdoor shooting range are impossible with stealth. No matter wich gear and skills they always wake up when i am still really far away even when gear and skills for stealth are nearly maxed. There is other POI´s where this happens too.

It is likely an intentional setting by the POI designer, as I discovered with the house_old_mansard_01 POI. The sleeper volume can be set to "attack" as soon as you enter the volume. Stealth does not apply whatsoever - as soon as you enter the volume, they spawn + wake up + attack.

Popping into existence on top of you would be a bug— though one I have not experienced myself now for a few alphas. 

You can experience it pretty quickly if you check out the house_old_mansard_01 poi. It's in the PREGEN maps and probably in any large map. The configuration of the rooftop sleeper volume will pretty much make it mandatory that the zombies pop in (assuming you are looking at the rooftop as you climb the ladder).

I agree that it is a bug, but it's a "this is working as designed, but the design is suboptimal" bug, not a "this is broken" bug. I showed above how a small change to that specific POI (nevermind the dozens/hundreds of others that might have similar situations) can make the zombie spawning more natural and impossible to "pop in" as long as you are following the path.

I'm convinced this is not a hardware or driver issue, at least not in POIs with sleeper volumes configured certain ways.

 

[JCrook1028]

Minimum requirements on steam also say you need 2GB dedicated graphic memory and a dual core with 2.4GHZ. Really needs an update, in the forums and on steam.

My bad. I really thought 4 was the minimum.

 

[Roland]

It is likely an intentional setting by the POI designer, as I discovered with the house_old_mansard_01 POI. The sleeper volume can be set to "attack" as soon as you enter the volume. Stealth does not apply whatsoever - as soon as you enter the volume, they spawn + wake up + attack.

You can experience it pretty quickly if you check out the house_old_mansard_01 poi. It's in the PREGEN maps and probably in any large map. The configuration of the rooftop sleeper volume will pretty much make it mandatory that the zombies pop in (assuming you are looking at the rooftop as you climb the ladder).

I agree that it is a bug, but it's a "this is working as designed, but the design is suboptimal" bug, not a "this is broken" bug. I showed above how a small change to that specific POI (nevermind the dozens/hundreds of others that might have similar situations) can make the zombie spawning more natural and impossible to "pop in" as long as you are following the path.

I'm convinced this is not a hardware or driver issue, at least not in POIs with sleeper volumes configured certain ways.

I personally think that some peppering of the attack-when-activated sleeper volumes is not a bad thing. Stealth shouldn’t be 100% effective all the time and an occasional situation where you have to adapt and change things up can be good and in no way invalidates the stealth perks people have purchased. I’m not saying you were claiming this but I’ve seen plenty of posts of people complaining that sometimes zombies attack immediately no matter what you try to do stealth-wise and that somehow makes playing stealth pointless. 
 

As for that roof, I bet that if you wrote what you did here as a bug report showing the screenshots of the sleeper volume and how extending it one block down made it so zombies didn’t appear in player sight, there would be a ticket for that made for sure. The devs do not want zombies spawning in the view of players so finding specific areas and being able to point to the cause and reproducing a fix is a pretty compelling report. As other spots in POIs are found those should be reported as well. 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@RolandIt´s fine when you can´t stealth everything. But it´s again such an extreme measure, middle ground, ever heard of it, TFP? You enter the RedMesa and everything in a huge area wakes up. Same for the outdoor shooting range.

I avoid those POI´s, it´s just bad game design that really puts you out off immersion in those two. The end of the RedMesa also seems like a desperate attempt to create difficulty by waking up a lot of Z´s in close quarters. Others where you have small rooms and they wake up no matter what you do are fine. It just shouldn´t become too much, otherwise you have a few skills and items that are pointless.

 

[Roland]

One huge area in Red Mesa and one shooting range where the designers probably wanted to create an arena battle situation and then intermittent rooms in various POIs is too extreme and makes taking stealth pointless? We’ll have to agree to disagree about that. 

I get that not every player would want to play an arena battle and so would hate those POIs but that hardly makes taking stealth pointless. Even having one section in every POI that triggers an immediate attack wouldn’t make taking stealth pointless and those kind of sleeper volumes are not as common as that by a long shot. 
 

My criticism of the system would be to randomize the attack volumes so that they can happen anywhere infrequently so that you can’t memorize when they are going to happen. But making it so that if you take stealth you can always enter every sleeper volume undetected would make exploration too samey. 

 

[Boidster]

I personally think that some peppering of the attack-when-activated sleeper volumes is not a bad thing. Stealth shouldn’t be 100% effective all the time and an occasional situation where you have to adapt and change things up can be good and in no way invalidates the stealth perks people have purchased. I’m not saying you were claiming this but I’ve seen plenty of posts of people complaining that sometimes zombies attack immediately no matter what you try to do stealth-wise and that somehow makes playing stealth pointless. 
 

As for that roof, I bet that if you wrote what you did here as a bug report showing the screenshots of the sleeper volume and how extending it one block down made it so zombies didn’t appear in player sight, there would be a ticket for that made for sure. The devs do not want zombies spawning in the view of players so finding specific areas and being able to point to the cause and reproducing a fix is a pretty compelling report. As other spots in POIs are found those should be reported as well. 

Completely agree about the attack-when-activated volumes. They don't bother me at all. Well, I mean they do bother me what with all the abrasions, lacerations, and broken bones, but as a design element they're fine, given the direction TFP has taken POIs in general.

I'll copy my stuff over into a bug report, good idea. After thinking about it a bit, my guess is the POI designer figured well, you're facing the ladder when climbing (away from the rooftop) and so you'll never see them spawn. But a smart player will just peek his/her head above the roof to see what's in store, and that causes a problem. "Hey guys, the roof is empty and the loot is just sitting there! Let's goooooo! <pop> AAAAHHHHH GET THESE VULTURES OFF MY FACE MY LEG IS BROKEN!"