PC Attributes should probably go

[Roland]

Sure, except like half of the meta perks are in the intellect tree.

“Meta perks” is simply code for max/min gameplay. They aren’t critical. I often ignore the intellect tree and survive just fine. 

Yes, this is what I wrote in the opening post. I've also said multiple times in this thread why (imo) this system is bad.

You don’t like it. I do. Others don’t like it and others do. Doesn’t make it a bad system—just an unpopular one among players like you. Should they change their design because some players don’t like how they organized things. They do like attribute trees and it is their game. They realize not everyone is going to like what they design but plenty of people like it. 

No, I have a specific combination of perks that I want without having to waste perk point's on crap I don't even care about.

It’s just extra cost for putting those combos together same as it would be if they readjusted the prices and got rid of the attributes. Forget about the benefits those extra costs give if you don’t care about them. You aren’t paying for those you are paying for the combo of perks you want to put together. 
 

Maaan, I play on Warrior :v
Besides, you're changing the topic. You've said that we should leave garbage builds at garbage level because of some 3 guys who can "beat" the game with them. I'm saying that most builds should provide equal oppotunity to "win", just in different ways. I'm not saying we should make the game into a cakewalk.

I play on Warrior too.  

I’m not changing the subject. You first said that spreading your points around makes you too weak to play on at the difficulty level you chose and later even checked someone by quipping “I don’t play on Scavenger”.  Making all combinations of perks equally able to “win” simply makes all the combos symmetrical and gives the game a same feel no matter what you choose. 
 

I like the asymmetrical feel of the various builds and that some combos have to be developed slowly and become quite challenging in the mid to late game. That option to choose a challenging character build would disappear if we made all combos equally capable of winning. 

it’s not about making the game into a cake-walk. It’s about making it not matter whatever kind of character you choose to develop.

Why do you think the attribute-less system wouldn't do the same or better? Throughout this entire thread you just assume that it's going to suck because why exactly?

I wouldn’t say that it would suck. I like the attribute trees because they allow for easy/obvious character builds, intermediate character builds, and challenging character builds. I like the asymmetrical nature of the current system. Even just playing through the game five times sticking to one tree makes for very different experiences.

Without the attributes players would gravitate to the same optimal combo of perks without any reason or guide to do differently.
 

Im sure the game would still be a lot of fun without the attributes. I just like them the way they are. But I’ve made my point and I’m not trying to stifle your opinion so I’ll end and let you continue pressing for what you want.

 

[Sal]

I am nobody to decide, Dad. We are in agreement, then: neither of us should claim that this or that perk objectively "serves no useful purpose". Subjectively, for my play style, some perks are preferred, others not. For your play style, you'll prefer different perks from me. Cool, man. Play how ya like. To the extent that many different play styles all disfavor a particular perk, it could either be because a) it legit needs some tweaking (looking at you Pack Mule) or b) the play style it's designed for just isn't a very popular style (my theory about Charismatic Nature).

I think we're both in the same building here just on different floors (per say).  I get what your saying here and I fully agree with it.....in theory.  I really do.  Give every type of player an option based on how they choose to play the game and I'm all for this. All day long. I'm of the opinion..... "the more options, the better".

I'm not in any way saying they should 'only offer perks that benefit my particular style'.  But I am, however, saying that there needs to be a better way to balance it.  Similar to what you suggested about the pack mule perk. I think that's an excellent idea. Having pocket mods hidden behind T1 'pack pule' would give people more of an incentive to put points into it.  I see the purpose of having "pack mule" as a perk, in general, but in doesn't really make sense in it's current state with how the rest of the game is designed. Just make it make sense! And do the same with the rest of perks.

Speaking of perks and the "charismatic" perk. I would also like to add that I think TFP is having a really hard time trying to balance perks for players both MP/coop and SP players as well IMO.  This alone offers a different challenge.  I think they're trying their butts off to find a balance but that's a big task because trying to cater to both sides at the same time  is an extremely hard thing to accomplish without taking away from one side to other. Especially for a game like this where I imagine the pool of players is nearly split 50/50 between MP or SP. I have nothing to back this up but I'm sure you get my point.

Separating SP files from MP servers would help alleviate alot of issues IMO. But I'm not sure how viable that option is.

 

[Kalen]

Not sure why people think pack mule is useless.... sure you can get the same effect using pocket mods.   But that comes at a cost.  You are using valuable mod slots that you could otherwise use for something else.

I'm not saying that makes pack mule awesome.... just saying that it absolutely has some value.

 

[Sal]

Not sure why people think pack mule is useless.... sure you can get the same effect using pocket mods.   But that comes at a cost. 

The cost of 2 leather, 1 duct tape, 15 cloth and 1 sewing kit. All of which can found with ease.

You are using valuable mod slots that you could otherwise use for something else.

Like what? Insulation mods that serve even less of a real purpose.

 

[Kalen]

The cost of 2 leather, 1 duct tape, 15 cloth and 1 sewing kit. All of which can found with ease.

The cost is the cost of losing a mod slot

Like what? Insulation mods that serve even less of a real purpose.

There are lots of mods some are really useful, some marginally so.... but all have some level of value.   

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

The cost is the cost of losing a mod slot

Never missed the slot a pocket mod takes. Besides the obvious helmet light/bandolier/boots mod(the one for fall damage, just can´t memorize it´s name even after all the years), customized fittings are all i need, even when playing stealth i rather have pocket mods than muffled connectors.

 

[Kalen]

Never missed the slot a pocket mod takes. Besides the obvious helmet light/bandolier/boots mod(the one for fall damage, just can´t memorize it´s name even after all the years), customized fittings are all i need, even when playing stealth i rather have pocket mods than muffled connectors.

Thats cool.... I have.  Different people value different things.   Nothing wrong with that.

 

[ElDudorino]

There aren't even enough armor mods to fill all the mod slots you get.  There's no lost opportunity cost for ignoring pack mule. You can take it if you're just into weird stuff but its value is objectively much lower than pretty much every other perk (not counting charisma for singleplayer).

 

[Kalen]

There aren't even enough armor mods to fill all the mod slots you get.  There's no lost opportunity cost for ignoring pack mule. You can take it if you're just into weird stuff but its value is objectively much lower than pretty much every other perk (not counting charisma for singleplayer).

Debatable.... if you're living in a snow or desert biome the insulator or cooling mods certainly have some value.   I agree that most perks are more valuable than a mod slot.... again, I'll I'm saying is that pack mule is not useless.   It's value to most maybe very low but there is value.

I would love to see many more and varied mods so that the choice of mods becomes a little more difficult to make and a perk like pack mule becomes a little more appealing.

 

[Roland]

I would love to see many more and varied mods so that the choice of mods becomes a little more difficult to make and a perk like pack mule becomes a little more appealing.

Well, not as cool as a wider variety of mods but definitely having the same effect will be a lot fewer mod slots available once we reduce wearable gear from ten items to four... 

Personally, think the pocket mods should add inventory slots and the perk should open inventory slots. Then there is a function for both.

 

[ElDudorino]

That's actually a smart idea. You need places to actually put your items (pockets) but also need to be strong enough to carry them (pack mule). Even then I would want to see Pack Mule open more than 3 slots. That's just not enough. Make it 5-7 and maybe we'll talk about me putting off leveling Pummel Pete / Miner 69er / Sexual Tyrannosaurus.