PC Armor re-balancing

[uselessjunkaccount]

In the last few alphas, heavy armor seemed to be left unused by many because of the penalties. Personally I wouldn't wear any of it before the steel armor set, if even that, since I usually would never spec into it because none of the previous heavy armor sets made sense to me from a min/max standpoint. And while I feel the penalties nerf in this alpha was needed, it has made light armor a lot less interesting and put it in the same risk/reward purgatory that most heavy armor used to be in. I don't feel like there's a whole lot of usefulness into speccing into light armor anymore. Scrap armor seems to be OP when you get to T5/6. 

Personally I would like to see the skill tree distinction between light and heavy armor be done away with entirely. Just give us one skill tree for them both and rebalance the stats of all armor to suit this. 

I think then a progression of armor should be this:

1. Padded - It offers very little protection at all and cannot be modded. It should be looked at like plant fiber clothes - things made extremely early on in the game and gotten rid of at the first chance. Everything you come across should look like an upgrade  It should be found in loot but without being tiered. 

2. Leather - It makes sense that this would be second. Leather is very easy to collect early on (couches, clothes, animals, etc) and would be the next obvious upgrade. It should just take a little leather and a little duct tape.

3. Scrap - It takes a bit more fashioning to make something like this. You'd want some practice making easier types of armor. I think a good recipe standard would involve one peice of padded armor (you'd want something to pad the inside of it, after all), some scrap iron and roll of duct tape.

4. Iron is the next obvious upgrade. You should use forge iron to make it and should have access to a forge by this point. 

5. Steel seems like the next best choice to me here although I guess I could see arguments for military instead. Steel armor parts are great  since it gives you something to look forward to in loot and something else to work towards.

6. Finally, military armor. It makes most sense to me because you'd think military equipment would be best for any apocalypse. It would be kind of crazy to me to have something less mobile be the end game armor set since you'd want mobility against zombies and I imagine you'll want bullet protection against factions of militias roaming the land (hopefully soon to be added).  This should offer the highest protection without the largest penalties. I always hated how armors gave bigger penalties the better they got in this game, upgrades should always feel like upgrades and if we don't have to balance one type over the other then we can have something that feels truly end game. 

This gives much clearer armor progression. It would make looting more fun since you will want to use everything you come across. I don't feel like the current tiers within each armor type are very well balanced against one another, let alone the two types being balanced against the other. Does anyone really feel like there's a distinct flavor between the two armor types? Personally I don't. Perhaps maybe if the skill trees were distinct from one another it would be fine but they are exactly the same and offer no rewards over the other to be able to create a different playstyle. It just feels like I'm limiting myself if I spec into either so I don't even bother anymore and then it's just padded/scrap until I can get high tier end game armor. 

 

[canadianbluebeer]

Steel armor gives the most protection, but at mobility cost yes.

Think the stuff bomb disposal wears.

(heavy military armor? with all the steel chickenplates?)

btw, if wearing steel armor, no way should a zed be able to bite the player.  Punch etc, yes, bite no.

 

[meganoth]

Steel armor gives the most protection, but at mobility cost yes.

Think the stuff bomb disposal wears.

(heavy military armor? with all the steel chickenplates?)

btw, if wearing steel armor, no way should a zed be able to bite the player.  Punch etc, yes, bite no.

One of the mysteries of the wasteland. Maybe with INT 10 and a year of research with working lab equipment in the higashi tower you might find out why this is possible

 

[canadianbluebeer]

One of the mysteries of the wasteland. Maybe with INT 10 and a year of research with working lab equipment in the higashi tower you might find out why this is possible

Diamond tipped teeths?

 

[alanea]

In the last few alphas, heavy armor seemed to be left unused by many because of the penalties. Personally I wouldn't wear any of it before the steel armor set, if even that, since I usually would never spec into it because none of the previous heavy armor sets made sense to me from a min/max standpoint. And while I feel the penalties nerf in this alpha was needed, it has made light armor a lot less interesting and put it in the same risk/reward purgatory that most heavy armor used to be in. I don't feel like there's a whole lot of usefulness into speccing into light armor anymore. Scrap armor seems to be OP when you get to T5/6. 

err are you realizing military armor is still best right? 80% dmg reduction isnt  with  0%  mobility penalty isnt enought?

Personally I would like to see the skill tree distinction between light and heavy armor be done away with entirely. Just give us one skill tree for them both and rebalance the stats of all armor to suit this. 

I think then a progression of armor should be this:

1. Padded - It offers very little protection at all and cannot be modded. It should be looked at like plant fiber clothes - things made extremely early on in the game and gotten rid of at the first chance. Everything you come across should look like an upgrade  It should be found in loot but without being tiered. 

why ?   padded is by far weak its tier 1 light armor opposition of scrap

offering no penalties its ok early bad mid/late  basically just reinforced starting clothing to hold mods

if something .... then it should give same penalties as other light armors

2. Leather - It makes sense that this would be second. Leather is very easy to collect early on (couches, clothes, animals, etc) and would be the next obvious upgrade. It should just take a little leather and a little duct tape.

it literaly takes  duct tape leather and sewing kit

3. Scrap - It takes a bit more fashioning to make something like this. You'd want some practice making easier types of armor. I think a good recipe standard would involve one peice of padded armor (you'd want something to pad the inside of it, after all), some scrap iron and roll of duct tape.

4. Iron is the next obvious upgrade. You should use forge iron to make it and should have access to a forge by this point.

5. Steel seems like the next best choice to me here although I guess I could see arguments for military instead. Steel armor parts are great  since it gives you something to look forward to in loot and something else to work towards.

heavy armor line ... 90%   protection when maxed  compared to  80% ( meanign you take half damage in heavy vs  light) also superior effect resistance  .. balanced by heavy  speed /stamina/sneak penalty

while crafting from padded might sound realistic it makes no sense at all scrap is equivalent to padded from heavy line they should be equally hard to get/craft= making one from the other makes no sense

6. Finally, military armor. It makes most sense to me because you'd think military equipment would be best for any apocalypse. It would be kind of crazy to me to have something less mobile be the end game armor set since you'd want mobility against zombies and I imagine you'll want bullet protection against factions of militias roaming the land (hopefully soon to be added).  This should offer the highest protection without the largest penalties. I always hated how armors gave bigger penalties the better they got in this game, upgrades should always feel like upgrades and if we don't have to balance one type over the other then we can have something that feels truly end game.

best armor in game  .. weakerprotection than steel ... but penalties can be completely removed with mods+perks

and due to this its favored by most people who know how armor work/are not dumb enought to jump between  10 wights with club

its superior to steel simply because you can be so tought you dont fear zombies at all  ... while keeping mobility /stealth steel is just overkill turning you into snail ( and the fact you run faster than zombies makes mobility quiiiiiite important only dogs can catch you and those are completely harmless with q6 mili armor)

This gives much clearer armor progression. It would make looting more fun since you will want to use everything you come across. I don't feel like the current tiers within each armor type are very well balanced against one another, let alone the two types being balanced against the other. Does anyone really feel like there's a distinct flavor between the two armor types? Personally I don't. Perhaps maybe if the skill trees were distinct from one another it would be fine but they are exactly the same and offer no rewards over the other to be able to create a different playstyle. It just feels like I'm limiting myself if I spec into either so I don't even bother anymore and then it's just padded/scrap until I can get high tier end game armor. 

nope armor as it is makes sense  what you written is random mess

we have light / heavy lines .. sharing same penalties acros t1/t2/t3 ( padded is exception hopefully fixed over time... maybe they should make some even weaker  " sneak armor")

100% clear progression through  3  tiers   with clear difference ( heavy takes alot less dmg  for significant speed penalty) soo wheres problem ?

sure perks could differ more ... like  sneak bonus/jump height for light  and bleed/infection immunity for heavy ... or something similar

 

[Scyris]

The movement debuff is really what I hate on armor, I hate being slow in games like this, thankfully there is a Urban combat book that when in combat it removes all movement penalties from armor, so you can move at full speed. I mostly use padded armor even late game as a stealth build, as even the "light" armor makes too much noise to stealth effectivly in the game.

 

[Morloc]

I always hated how armors gave bigger penalties the better they got in this game, upgrades should always feel like upgrades...

I agree with that. I am using more heavy armor (steel) than light in this playthrough. I'd saved up perk points and purchased all four levels of Heavy Armor at once. I was pretty disappointed in the difference in mobility...barely noticeable.

While Military armor would be the best (all-around) armor pre-apocalypse, the idea of crazy head-to-toe protection is very immersive to the zombie genre. You can't push Steel much higher in Armor rating, so that'd mean balancing AR and Effects Resistance relative to Military (i.e. mostly nerfing Military). The river of tears that'd erupt if anyone actually suggested or implemented that would be inspiring!  Most here have posted how critical mobility is. There should be a trade off for that mobility with Steel having ~significantly~ better AR and Effects Resistance. Were this true, we'd be more inclined to mix heavy and light armor pieces and perks.

Another solution would be to have military armor be as rare as radiation gear is now and no craft. It could be the "ultimate" armor set then with its rarity balancing its uber stats.

-Morloc

 

[alanea]

well they decided to have two  separate lines of armor ... one with high armor/resistance/crit resist and one with lower --- naturally there must be some drawback on heavy one  to make both relevant

movement /stamina penalty is perfect for this as steel plate armor is extremely heavy and should definitely limit mobility  as cost for protection (urban combat perk is bs that should be removed as it just breaking game mechanic + significantly devalue perks)

still .. be happy you can jump with steel armor ( lets skip the fact 10x forged steel is enought to add 4 tons of steel to  block)

While Military armor would be the best (all-around) armor pre-apocalypse, the idea of crazy head-to-toe protection is very immersive to the zombie genre. You can't push Steel much higher in Armor rating, so that'd mean balancing AR and Effects Resistance relative to Military (i.e. mostly nerfing Military). The river of tears that'd erupt if anyone actually suggested or implemented that would be inspiring!  Most here have posted how critical mobility is. There should be a trade off for that mobility with Steel having ~significantly~ better AR and Effects Resistance. Were this true, we'd be more inclined to mix heavy and light armor pieces and perks.

Another solution would be to have military armor be as rare as radiation gear is now and no craft. It could be the "ultimate" armor set then with its rarity balancing its uber stats.

-Morloc

actually armor /resist wise  is steel well balanced compared to mili with maxed q6 +2moded  you take double damage in military gear compared to steel .. its singificantly better  if i spawn  10  wights on top of you  but  7 days is exploration game ... where mobility play significant role we are not supposed to facetank anything  with game build about  ranged weapons  and  avoiding hits even with melee and a19  made taking hits even more punishing with "crits"

when armor serve just as " pillow"  for  mistakes useless 99% time ... then  mobility just auto win

if they wanted balance it out ... they would  add 100% noise to metal .. and removed urban combat " oh look zombie that  50-100kg  armor sudenly dont slow me at all ) not to mention banditds are going to use  firearms ....and metal armors  become obsolete because even primitive guns could easily penetrate them  so they cant be too  poking  into realism .. of bites through armor ... withou making light armor 10x better vs bullets than steel

 

[Scyris]

Its like the stat system itself, I'd like the stats to be removed and changed to maybe 3-4 other things: A Weapon tree, that has all the weapon perks, and a base stat that ups headshot damage, a Defensive tree, which has stuff like armor skills, parkour, etc, and then a Survival tree, which has stuff like the cooking stuff, the stealth/sneak stuff, miner 69'er/mother (These 2 perks really need to be fused into 1 imo), or pretty much anything that doesn't fit in the other 2 trees would go into the 3rd.

 

[TWORDY]

I don't necessarily think heavy and light armour should be in separate trees.

Weat I would change personally is to rename perks into Strenght, Resistance, Survival, Mechanical and Engineering skills etc. Separately develop white weaponry and firearms of any sort regardless of the main framework like right now. Flatten damage and so on dealt with progression of the character and only headshot bonuses should work against undead etc. if the system doesn't work like that already. Quality of items could only determine number of mods to be possibly attached and item potential depletion. No need for more randomness on my side, keep it simple as they say.

 

[alanea]

Its like the stat system itself, I'd like the stats to be removed and changed to maybe 3-4 other things: A Weapon tree, that has all the weapon perks, and a base stat that ups headshot damage, a Defensive tree, which has stuff like armor skills, parkour, etc, and then a Survival tree, which has stuff like the cooking stuff, the stealth/sneak stuff, miner 69'er/mother (These 2 perks really need to be fused into 1 imo), or pretty much anything that doesn't fit in the other 2 trees would go into the 3rd.

nah  ... while hoarding 3 skill points for stat upgrade sucks they are really important

it  forces  you into focusing your character .. creating choice

your version would cut choices from  5 to 3   and give OP stuff into one  bad stuff into second  and third one useless situational except  69/mother  ( btw those definitely dont need merge  if you focus on building those perks are very strong ... definitely worth that point spend on each

I don't necessarily think heavy and light armour should be in separate trees.

Weat I would change personally is to rename perks into Strenght, Resistance, Survival, Mechanical and Engineering skills etc. Separately develop white weaponry and firearms of any sort regardless of the main framework like right now. Flatten damage and so on dealt with progression of the character and only headshot bonuses should work against undead etc. if the system doesn't work like that already. Quality of items could only determine number of mods to be possibly attached and item potential depletion. No need for more randomness on my side, keep it simple as they say.

renaming cathegories does nothing ...whats in them  matters .. current setup is quine nice ...  but some perks are still useless(also perk buffing  party members should be reworked in singleplayer game)

flatten damage?

headshot bonuses exist .. as well as sneak attack bonus

you are clearly new in 7days so let me show you bit of history

A17  introduced quality  1-6   weapons had 100% same stats just higher durability and differenc amount of slots = community massively whined why their q1 gund eal same damage as q6  (18% more if fully moded)

A18)   items got nerfed  and now scale up to original values depending on quality (mod slots still scale with Q)

A18)  since people had Q6  items easily developers  made weapon stats randomized to some degree so even if you drop Q6  there is chance next Q6 will be better it also added some variability .. as you can drop weapon with smaller magazine but higher rate of fire for example

so nope what you suggest is exactly what we moved away from recently because it didnt worked well

 

[Tehnomaag]

The movement debuff is really what I hate on armor, I hate being slow in games like this, thankfully there is a Urban combat book that when in combat it removes all movement penalties from armor, so you can move at full speed. I mostly use padded armor even late game as a stealth build, as even the "light" armor makes too much noise to stealth effectivly in the game.

It is not the armor that "breaks" stealth builds late-game in my opinion. It is the design choises made in some POI's to specifically target-screw-over the stealth - the auto-aggro upon entering certain rooms and pulling half a dozen zeds out of thin air upon entering the room during some missions. Which basically is DESIGNED to screw over the light-armor and in particular padded-armor-stealh builds in favor of heavy-armor-auto-shotgun+sledge tanks that are much better fit to handle such unavoidable zombie zerg-rushs in late game where all of them are feral and/or radiated.