PC Are the Devs just dumb?

[meganoth]

1$ for such dlc?  yes this not to much. Well everything depends on DLC quality - HOI4 is good example ---> some of them are good some of them are.... terrible at least.

1$? You should wait for a steam sale some years later then

A lot of people likes to play both types of game right? so i think hardcore players at least some of them would to play in 7DTD but it would be like "so guys we made optimal fabric in factorio. Maybe now few hours in 7dtd to releax?" But probably woudn't write that 7dtd should be hardcore etc. maybe someone will just start topic : "Hey devs : maybe  Project zomboid in 3D in future" and that's all. 

Mistake - daggerfall were pretty hardcore. And is considered as one of the most hard RPG but.... in this same time of the most bugged like a vampire the maquerade.

"Sure, anything harder than vanilla can be called hardcore even if it isn't much and in your theory we are starting at the casual bottom. I won't test them out to find out if I'm right or wrong, but lets at least agree that there will be mods for 7D2D as well that add some "hardcoreness" " - my friend was playing with some hardcore mods and were good. nothing to complain. If i good remember some of them were "added" later as offical option into skyrim.

"EDIT: And as Kosmic Kerman reminds me we already have harcore mods for 7D2D. You might not like those mods for other aspects (like uneven style or new magic zombies) but that doesn't change the fact that hardcore mods exist, right now." Harder don't mean hardcore this is a little bit diffrent - if you add zombie with 100000 hp it will be hard but not hardcore -if you add vehicles with 20 diffrent parts --> this would be hardcore

I would call this hardcore crafting, but there is at least hardcore survival as a category as well, and I'm sure hardcore survival has nothing to do with 20 part vehicles. I'm very sure there are hardcore sims and hardcore shooters. Maybe Factorio could be called a hardcore construction game.

Maybe you should simply say that hardcore for you is only complexity. Not everyone will agree to your definition, but lets say it is. We have at least one mod that has more complex crafting by the way,  Undead Legacy.

Yep... well it was 2010 so... i bought witcher and witcher enchanted edition so... yes?

About DLC --> wrong there is more of them.  Mount and blade with fire and sword but became comercial project like CS . While "pirates"dlc... hard to say - i found serval let say not totaly comfirmed information. but naopleon and viking sold pretty bad if i good remember .

Mount and blade was made in "pre Early access" period. So - it was a way to earn enough money to make more... 1.5 version. - i think if this game would be created now ,warband would be just dlc.  This was period when not everyone have internet and kickstarted wasn't popular. So yeah this was totaly normal. This same thing was with few diffrent games from this period.

So why TFP  can't do this same? because well mods are now popular - this is not 2010 anymore where not everyone had internet. 

Strange, you often complain that modders can't do this and can't do that and now your opinion seems to be that modders can do everything TFP can and everything you may want will be provided by modders. What now?

TFP has the whole code to tinker with where most modders can just change the xml and only a small group of modders is able to change anything below that. Have you seen any mods adding new quest types lately? I haven't. And TFP is canon, a mod by TFP that adds legendary weapons will set the standard even if there are mods that also add legendary weapons.

About last one - i used 3 years per one 1 game because honestly this is hard to say how big will be new games so -->3 games X 3 years = 9 years 

I know so little about their future plans that I hesitate to make any guesses besides repeating that they have two teams now, and usually that means at least two games are made in parallel and at specific times even 3 or 4 because of pipelining.

Mods don't solve this problem because problem was totaly change of vision.  I saw gameplays , i bought hardcore game but then it was change into casual game. That's what i mean.

Didn't you imply hardcore for you is complexity? 7D2D was never complex (from what little I know about past versions). It may have been somewhat harder to play, had more grind and a more awkward user interface, but thats it. Oh yes, and it was darker.

Somehow i bought bannerlord 2 , medieval dynasty , call to arms and... from begining this game were very similiar ( i mean no simpliciations just add new stuff, balance and expending existing ones) to final version

Which of these games had real EA (with emphasis on Alpha) instead of the usual beta test phase?

 

[Roland]

Mythical development time poll? Are you serious now? That was a thing. Still in the old forum though.

Mythical in the sense that it actually mattered and is the real reason Alphas take a year apiece. If you think the Pimps take so long for each alpha simply because a poll locked them into it then you are deluding yourself. If the poll had gone the other way, we would still be in the same place today regardless.

 

[unholyjoe]

Mythical ..... If the poll had gone the other way, we would still be in the same place today regardless.

 

[Matt115]

1$? You should wait for a steam sale some years later then

My small mistake - bordelands weapons +  higher level limit cost 4 $.  So 1 legendary weapon for each category as pack probably would cost 3-4 $.

I would call this hardcore crafting, but there is at least hardcore survival as a category as well, and I'm sure hardcore survival has nothing to do with 20 part vehicles. I'm very sure there are hardcore sims and hardcore shooters. Maybe Factorio could be called a hardcore construction game.

Maybe you should simply say that hardcore for you is only complexity. Not everyone will agree to your definition, but lets say it is. We have at least one mod that has more complex crafting by the way,  Undead Legacy.

 I checked Undead legacy and.. it have hardcore crafing  honestly thx for that.

Hardcore sims...  you mean medieval dynasty for example? Yes it's hardcore game in longer time - managment workers , motivate them need a lot of time. So yes - start can be easy but rest of game can be hardcore similiar to terraria. I gave example of hardcore shooters - arma and then you have tons of diffrent types of ammo, even similiar looking gun for casual person can have much diffrent ammo type ETC.

Strange, you often complain that modders can't do this and can't do that and now your opinion seems to be that modders can do everything TFP can and everything you may want will be provided by modders. What now?

TFP has the whole code to tinker with where most modders can just change the xml and only a small group of modders is able to change anything below that. Have you seen any mods adding new quest types lately? I haven't. And TFP is canon, a mod by TFP that adds legendary weapons will set the standard even if there are mods that also add legendary weapons.

If i remember this part was to someone else.  Long story short - Warband add one faction few guns and few mechanics. nothing big. But sold good while it was sold in full prices. why? because in 2010 a lot of people doesn't have access to fast internet. So i think now it would sold much much worst because add this stuff woudn't be big deal for modders. So why to buy something if you have much more for free?  Mount & Blade was pretty easy moddable game but times were diffrent - a lot of people just bought what was in local shop/ in closest big city. 

So if  guys who created M&B  create new game for full price that add new one faction, few weapons, make map a little bit bigger - it probably would be review bombed and sold rly bad. 

I would wrote about HOI4 situation but it would be... bad idea.

I know so little about their future plans that I hesitate to make any guesses besides repeating that they have two teams now, and usually that means at least two games are made in parallel and at specific times even 3 or 4 because of pipelining.

I think yhat 7dtd2 won't be in EA so i think 10 years sound realistic.

Didn't you imply hardcore for you is complexity? 7D2D was never complex (from what little I know about past versions). It may have been somewhat harder to play, had more grind and a more awkward user interface, but thats it. Oh yes, and it was darker.

Smell of flesh or  cleaning after blood moon ( for me cleaning was part of blood moon mechanic) was pretty complexed because... well everything was basic but it was very early versions - well even add sleepers take some time. So it was complexed because rest things was simple in this period - so i expected  that rest thing will be more and more complexed too.

Which of these games had real EA (with emphasis on Alpha) instead of the usual beta test phase?

MD, project zomboid. About mount and blade... hard to say - we know that at least 1 mount and blade bannerlord was crapped - law issue etc. so.... yes? and no. Hard to say in this sitaution. But for example - Arma Reforge as it was added on steam was in pretty early stage of production 

 

[meganoth]

My small mistake - bordelands weapons +  higher level limit cost 4 $.  So 1 legendary weapon for each category as pack probably would cost 3-4 $.

 I checked Undead legacy and.. it have hardcore crafing  honestly thx for that.

Hardcore sims...  you mean medieval dynasty for example? Yes it's hardcore game in longer time - managment workers , motivate them need a lot of time. So yes - start can be easy but rest of game can be hardcore similiar to terraria. I gave example of hardcore shooters - arma and then you have tons of diffrent types of ammo, even similiar looking gun for casual person can have much diffrent ammo type ETC.

If i remember this part was to someone else.  Long story short - Warband add one faction few guns and few mechanics. nothing big. But sold good while it was sold in full prices. why? because in 2010 a lot of people doesn't have access to fast internet. So i think now it would sold much much worst because add this stuff woudn't be big deal for modders. So why to buy something if you have much more for free?  Mount & Blade was pretty easy moddable game but times were diffrent - a lot of people just bought what was in local shop/ in closest big city. 

So if  guys who created M&B  create new game for full price that add new one faction, few weapons, make map a little bit bigger - it probably would be review bombed and sold rly bad. 

I would wrote about HOI4 situation but it would be... bad idea.

Mmh, wikipedia and news-media say that warband's biggest draw were multiple multiplayer modes. And that is just a very good example of something the developer can add much much easier than modders.

I think yhat 7dtd2 won't be in EA so i think 10 years sound realistic.

Smell of flesh or  cleaning after blood moon ( for me cleaning was part of blood moon mechanic) was pretty complexed because...

ROFL. Seriously? Cleaning after blood moon is a complex task?

Smell of flesh was a nice mechanic, but complex? Are we talking about pre-school gaming now?

well everything was basic but it was very early versions - well even add sleepers take some time. So it was complexed because rest things was simple in this period - so i expected  that rest thing will be more and more complexed too.

No, just no. You can't redefine a simple task as complex just because everything else in the game was even more simple.

Moving cubes through quadratic holes will never be called a complex task for an adult even though you could find even simpler tasks like hitting a cushion.

MD, project zomboid. About mount and blade... hard to say - we know that at least 1 mount and blade bannerlord was crapped - law issue etc. so.... yes? and no. Hard to say in this sitaution. But for example - Arma Reforge as it was added on steam was in pretty early stage of production 

 

[JCrook1028]

Yes. So that's why i wrote there is at least 10 years to want for 7dtd.

You do realize that for a lot of that "10 year" time frame the team was only a few members and now it's roughly 50 and still growing right? In simple terms no, 7dtd2 would NOT take 10 years.

 

[Matt115]

Mmh, wikipedia and news-media say that warband's biggest draw were multiple multiplayer modes. And that is just a very good example of something the developer can add much much easier than modders.

I read that the most popular mods were conversions into SW or LOTR

ROFL. Seriously? Cleaning after blood moon is a complex task?

Smell of flesh was a nice mechanic, but complex? Are we talking about pre-school gaming now?

ROFL. Seriously? Cleaning after blood moon is a complex task?

Smell of flesh was a nice mechanic, but complex? Are we talking about pre-school gaming now?

Well -  it looks like basic for more expended system in future  - Only game i could comparing to  7dtd in this period was MC while in MC food was pretty simple thing and mobs could be easy tricked by using cactus. So yes this looks funny now but in 2013 was pretty good job.

You do realize that for a lot of that "10 year" time frame the team was only a few members and now it's roughly 50 and still growing right? In simple terms no, 7dtd2 would NOT take 10 years.

We will see.  Still 10 years sounds much realistic that 5 years. So if they will change engine start making asset from begining - yes it will be 10 years to wait for 7dtd 2

 

[meganoth]

I read that the most popular mods were conversions into SW or LOTR

And that has absolutely nothing to do with MP as a feature in warband and it (presumably) selling well, as far as I can see. 

Well -  it looks like basic for more expended system in future  - Only game i could comparing to  7dtd in this period was MC while in MC food was pretty simple thing and mobs could be easy tricked by using cactus. So yes this looks funny now but in 2013 was pretty good job.

Which still does not make anything in that old alpha complex. You are just repeating your argument that because you only had to cushion to poke as comparison you thought moving cubes through quadratic holes was complex. If you were a pre-schooler at that time (or played like one ), sure it was complex for you. But it isn't the game that changed into being casual, it is you who changed.

 

[Matt115]

And that has absolutely nothing to do with MP as a feature in warband and it (presumably) selling well, as far as I can see. 

I know that game have MP but i heard that SP and SP converting mods were popular. maybe this change with time when fast internet became more popular.

Which still does not make anything in that old alpha complex. You are just repeating your argument that because you only had to cushion to poke as comparison you thought moving cubes through quadratic holes was complex. If you were a pre-schooler at that time (or played like one ), sure it was complex for you. But it isn't the game that changed into being casual, it is you who changed.

Meat smell for me was part of "food system" -  yes this is not complicated like green hell but... what could you expec in game in very early stage of production

 

[Guppycur]

Mythical development time poll? Are you serious now? That was a thing. Still in the old forum though.

There was definitely a non mythical time poll, but no clue if it was "official".

Re: game being made for casuals.  Yep, sure is.  They're targeting casuals because that's where the money is.  As a lover of the game, we hates it.  As a person with common sense, it makes sense.

Re: mods making the game more difficult.  Uh, as someone who is close to the modding community AND as someone who also mods, I will say two things... One, the most popular mods by far are the ones that make the game *easier* and *more* (usually moar gunz).  Two, you really can pretty much mod anything if you have the willpower and knowledge.  And as a bonus, three, I've yet to see an overhaul mod make the game *easier*, and three point one, the users of *those* mods are feveredly supportive.

So my take away is modding tracks with vanilla.  Most people want it easier but those who do want it harder are much more committed to the game/mod.

Kinda gives a double meaning to "casuals".  Or it just reinforceds the original meaning.  I dunno, I just woke up.

 

[Matt115]

Re: game being made for casuals.  Yep, sure is.  They're targeting casuals because that's where the money is.  As a lover of the game, we hates it.  As a person with common sense, it makes sense.

But other hands - people remember hardcore/controversial games not casual or "for everyone"

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Guppycur Regarding overhauls, Darkness Falls is by far the most popular overhaul mod and it´s for sure harder. I have seen a lot of DF servers advertised on several platforms and in the serverlist. War of the walkers, wich is easier than vanilla imo, i haven´t seen much of. 

 

[Guppycur]

But other hands - people remember hardcore/controversial games not casual or "for everyone"

It's a business, not a memory wall.

@Guppycur Regarding overhauls, Darkness Falls is by far the most popular overhaul mod and it´s for sure harder. I have seen a lot of DF servers advertised on several platforms and in the serverlist. War of the walkers, wich is easier than vanilla imo, i haven´t seen much of. 

Yep, that's my point; the 2nd type of person who really wants it harder will choose an overhaul and feverishly defend it, whereas a casual will choose some QoL mod that increases stack sizes or something silly and not give a crap about the game.  But there's far more of the latter.

 

[Pille]

It's a business, not a memory wall.

Yep, that's my point; the 2nd type of person who really wants it harder will choose an overhaul and feverishly defend it, whereas a casual will choose some QoL mod that increases stack sizes or something silly and not give a crap about the game.  But there's far more of the latter.

Can DF be installed as easily as those QoL mods and do they also increase the systems requirements, like DF and other overhauls do? What I want to say, overhauls and some random quality of life mods differ on many levels, so you can not simply attribute the greater popularity of the latter to the fact that they make the game easier (IMO increasing stack sizes only reduces annoyance and has nothing to do with lowering difficulty anyway). 

 

[Matt115]

It's a business, not a memory wall.

Well - pirania games base on nostalgia - Elex.

Fatal frame.

Arma

Operation flashpoint

Man of war

Dead island

dead space

Pathologic 2

So sometimes it's better to reduce potential income now to create solid series with solid fanbase in future

 

[Melange]

It's a business, not a memory wall.

Yep, that's my point; the 2nd type of person who really wants it harder will choose an overhaul and feverishly defend it, whereas a casual will choose some QoL mod that increases stack sizes or something silly and not give a crap about the game.  But there's far more of the latter.

Emm, I for one do give a crap about the game Sir @Guppycur, and I do enjoy a boost in QoL. I don't give a flying buzzard's buttocks about how hard others want to make it, as long as I retain the option to play how I like to play it. Either TFP gives me that option or I can get it in a mod.  I have dappled with your mods as well. Your work is very good, and I can't do what you do.

But to minimalize those of us who play to relax, albeit with challenge, versus those who want the zombie world to be able to rip off their face during every encounter...it's not an honest comparison imo. I'll say it again: We all enjoy playing in a different way.

And I apoligize @Matt115 if your skeletons and bone corpses aren't here. Tell me, what kind of magazines are you going to sell in that magazine stand? Kiddie Pierogi? Kielbasa Killer? Ok, I joke. Hope you see my humor (dark, like skeletons...) 

 

[Matt115]

Emm, I for one do give a crap about the game Sir @Guppycur, and I do enjoy a boost in QoL. I don't give a flying buzzard's buttocks about how hard others want to make it, as long as I retain the option to play how I like to play it. Either TFP gives me that option or I can get it in a mod.  I have dappled with your mods as well. Your work is very good, and I can't do what you do.

But to minimalize those of us who play to relax, albeit with challenge, versus those who want the zombie world to be able to rip off their face during every encounter...it's not an honest comparison imo. I'll say it again: We all enjoy playing in a different way.

And I apoligize @Matt115 if your skeletons and bone corpses aren't here. Tell me, what kind of magazines are you going to sell in that magazine stand? Kiddie Pierogi? Kielbasa Killer? Ok, I joke. Hope you see my humor (dark, like skeletons...) 

It would be.... Zuł scrapper! - i have so effective hobos in my city who manage to even steal barbed wire from military base, few big fences, a lot of shop carts etc XD now near abbadoned shopmarekt there is few shop carts shed and they made there a small houses in 7DTD XD i'm dying about that. About newsstands - well this could be just pocket supermarket - have near my house newsstand - you can find there everything - clothes? Ok, knifes? k, Magazine? no problem. Flashlight? choose one. 

There is one small mod that i love - it add a chance that zombie after dead will not disapair but will change into corpse

 

[Melange]

It would be.... Zuł scrapper! - i have so effective hobos in my city who manage to even steal barbed wire from military base, few big fences, a lot of shop carts etc XD now near abbadoned shopmarekt there is few shop carts shed and they made there a small houses in 7DTD XD i'm dying about that. About newsstands - well this could be just pocket supermarket - have near my house newsstand - you can find there everything - clothes? Ok, knifes? k, Magazine? no problem. Flashlight? choose one. 

There is one small mod that i love -it add a chance that zombie after dead will not disapair but will change into corpse

And now I think I begin to understand. Your newstand = A mini-Trader kiosk with a little bit of anyything for sale? A place I can sell scrap without having to go to see  Trader Jen or Hugh or Joel? Maybe I don't get a good price...but I can get. Is that your idea?

"There is one small mod that i love -it add a chance that zombie after dead will not disapair but will change into corpse" - So I can harvest the rotten meat and bones? Oh, that would be ok too. Sometimes I really need to make more glue/duct tape. 

Did I get your meaning right? Oh, I don't mod the game (yet). Maybe some day. But I'd like to understand your meaning anyway. Too often intent is lost in translation. 

 

[Matt115]

And now I think I begin to understand. Newstand = A mini-Trader kiosk with a little bit of anyything? A place I can sell scrap without having to go to see  Trader Jen or Hugh or Joel? Is that your idea?

"There is one small mod that i love -it add a chance that zombie after dead will not disapair but will change into corpse" - So I can harvest the rotten meat and bones? Oh, that would be good too. Better than cleaning up all the dead zombie piles after a horde...we did that before 

Did I get your meaning right? 

Yep ^^

Well we have big "outpost" so why small but good defenced kiosk? It would be so useful. And looks pretty good

Yeah we did this before .... but well i undestand preformance issue so  that's why i love this mod - don't create corpse piles just sometimes single corpse. Yeah you can havest them - after "disappairing" of dead zombie in this place is spawned corpses that you can find in some POI.

Btw vehicle madness looks so good and rly i like this mod

And i'm thinking about checking undead legacy.

i wish there were screen which zombie were added in war of the walkers mod

 

[Melange]

Yep ^^

Well we have big "outpost" so why small but good defenced kiosk? It would be so useful. And looks pretty good

Yeah we did this before .... but well i undestand preformance issue so  that's why i love this mod - don't create corpse piles just sometimes single corpse. Yeah you can havest them - after "disappairing" of dead zombie in this place is spawned corpses that you can find in some POI.

It took me some time. But everytime you said 'Newstand' I really don't think the devs/moderators got your meaning. It's a translation problem. Well, we have solved that problem. Maybe a modder can give us a few 'MattMarts'...