PC Are pipe machine guns too strong for their tier?

Viktoriusiii said:
It is the only thing that can reliably kill dogs early.
So yeah it is.
A smaller magazine coupled with a lower rate of fire (~1/2) should make it feel more like a pipe weapon.
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I agree with this. Magazine size lowered to 10 - 12 maybe?

There ARE a lot more dogs starting on day 2 for me. I have started 6 games and this has been the case in all of them.

Twice i had a bear attacking my base on night 2. 

SO I think the pipe machine gun is necessary but needs a bit of a nerf

 
BFT2020 said:
I will have to look at what the recent patch has done in more details, but I made the following changes myself already for the pipe machine gun

  • Mods not allowed (all T0 equipment actually)
  • No repairs (all T0)
  • Can't craft above Q2, can't find in loot, or available from the traders (all T0)
  • double the damage reduction (originally around -16, I upped it to -30)
  • 25% reduction in rounds per minute
It still does better than the pistol but just because it uses 7.62mm ammo and has a bigger clip size.  Also faster reload than the other weapons.  However, I noticed a significant difference with it.  You can't mow down a wandering horde by just easing up the trigger and using very little ammo.   Ammo consumption increased a lot.
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Shows how far ahead it is. Its honestly better than the T1 pistol in every aspect currently. in my opinion using more expensive ammo is irrelevant as ammo is so plentiful that i have to go out of my way to waste ammo in order for it to matter (no melee and no headshots -_-)

It helps for early horde nights as the other weapons are too unreliable to deal with a steady stream of foes, but it really is just that good.

I think the big issues compared to the pipe pistol is that the machine gun MUST deal more damage using the better bullets, and it MUST have a larger clip in order to qualify as a machine gun and lastly it MUST have a higher rate of fire.

so either they change the ammo to 9mm and nerf its damage significantly or nerf it in multiple other ways.

A significantly longer reload time is a no brainer. It should be at 5 seconds for balance purposes, it needs to reload the least so that is definitely a spot that would help hurt it.

There is only so much you can nerf the clip size, rate of fire and damage before it fills its role as 'the machine gun', they should probably push that to its limit though, its a pipe weapon, its supposed to suck! it is meant to be a consolation prize for not looting anything decent.

I think the best way to nerf the crap out of it without compromising all the things that it should be doing well would be screwing its accuracy to the ground with nasty kick backs. Only problem there though is that it would probably just turn into a 'rifle' with a large clip and be used as a single shot with burst capabilities and nerfs it in the situation it should be used as opposed to the situation it shouldnt (marksmanship)

as it is though it needs significant nerfs considering the sheer jankyness of the pistol, shotgun and rifle.

 
HELLO! late to the party, THANKS skippy for showing this

i think the pipe MG should be nerfed and i think some fair ways are
 

  • Making crafting harder by needing mechanical parts, cuz... its a MG.. i don't think a few pipes, glue and wood would make a MG...
  • have a "jam" system where for every 3, 4 or even 5 shots you fire have to Crank the handle on the side to rechamber a round. that way it would give a "oh crap" moment
  • When reloading, you crank the gun 3 times too finally chamber a round in your sin of god too John Browning!
  • Last but not least, make the Accuracy very poor
  • Suppressors (i just think they need a overheating function period but oh well)

 
I have an idea.... Could be crazy

What if they all get an improvement in damage (especially the pistol) but you cannot repair them. Once they break, you can only scrap them for bits. I also think making them is too achievable, and I wouldn't mind it being more resource intense. Maybe even requiring forged iron, as it's not hard to find if you get your hands on a wrench early. Even if it's just 1-5. You're making a gun for survival, you may consider it a priority.

I do not mind the feeling of imbalance because if you always feel beaten down, coupled with the AI pathing, it becomes unfun in a fat hurry. Giving a fresh spawn a fighting chance ain't all bad. We've seen how us long timers balance it ourselves for challenge. I think what's tough is that because the game is so customizable and so open ended it's created a void where if choice was lacking and we just had a game we booted up and played without the choice to play with options it would all be mods. I can assure you the mods making the game more difficult would be less popular but the overhaul ones like Darkness Falls and Undead Legacy would prevail and their difficulty would be accepted. 

I think a massive part of why people gripe is because you can tune literally everything so you find little thorns where it doesn't fit well for you and it becomes a focus. I like sniping. If I could I'd be a zombie sniper all day. It doesn't work well for me in this game twofold: they don't spawn far enough for it to matter, and if they did, it's not like I can shoot through walls where they are and I wanna be. So I opt for alternative means. This isn't a game for sniping, so why complain? 

I can't say I'll complain if it's nerfed, I'll adjust (I wasn't using it much to begin with, ironically), but I don't know I get why people are married to it. Don't we move on to the AK pretty quick anyway? I feel like it's silly to poke at early stage weapons when the goal is to graduate to something better. Even if you have a good early stage weapon, wouldn't that mean you have to choose whether or not you spec into it anyway? I feel like people want a harder game without changing their difficulty to something harder when they have the option. 

Goemaat said:
I think a more serious nerf is needed.  It reloads so fast that the magazine capacity isn't really an issue.  The lowered magazine is enough to take care of any group of mobs I found in the world, and I just reload after every couple zombies anyway.  I had a quality 6 pipe machine gun that was better than quality 4 AK-47s I'd found so I was still using it until I found a quality 5 M60.

I'm thinking lower damage and accuracy, because hey, it's a pipe and not a rifled steel barrel.  Right now there's little reason to use the hunting rifle (I sure don't) because the machine gun does about as much damage, is about as accurate, and isn't single-shot.  Actually improving the reload speed on the hunting rifle, pistol, and shotgun would be nice to make them actually useful.
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Did you use it because it had better stats or because you were better with it? 

I've always defaulted to the basic pistol, personally. I've liked stealth builds from the jump and when I spec into handguns I have several options. When I'm late game, the SMG works a treat with a silencer for me. For hoards, magnums and SMG. I'm good with that setup. I might have an auto shotgun by that point, but not only are my points/books in what I carry, my ammo I make is not tailored to the higher damage weapon on paper because my skills compensate. Maybe I'm reading too deep. Cheers mate. 

 
By the earliest moment you get all the mats to make them, chances are that you may not even have ammo for them.

Also, if you're a spray and pray kinda person.. the pipe MG rips through your ammo stock pretty fast.

And empty gun is worthless in this game.  That seems moderately balanced to me.

 
Lenny Lettuce Lips said:
I have an idea.... Could be crazy

What if they all get an improvement in damage (especially the pistol) but you cannot repair them. Once they break, you can only scrap them for bits. I also think making them is too achievable, and I wouldn't mind it being more resource intense. Maybe even requiring forged iron, as it's not hard to find if you get your hands on a wrench early. Even if it's just 1-5. You're making a gun for survival, you may consider it a priority.
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Not crazy at all, that is how I modded them in my game.  However, I didn't change the damage on them or change their recipes (I want them to stay early game weapons).  But I did make some other changes that overall affect how they work in my game:

  • Cannot add mods to them
  • Cannot craft above Q2
  • Cannot find anywhere (loot or traders)
  • Switch the pipe pistol to 44 cal and the pipe machine gun to 9mm (changed the damage modifier to remain the same as vanilla though)

    Obviously I also modded so 44 cal ammo drops at the beginning - now the ammo piles have 4 possibilities of gunpowder ammo at the beginning so that also limits the ammo per gun over the long run

 
Ramethzer0 said:
By the earliest moment you get all the mats to make them, chances are that you may not even have ammo for them.

Also, if you're a spray and pray kinda person.. the pipe MG rips through your ammo stock pretty fast.

And empty gun is worthless in this game.  That seems moderately balanced to me.
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Absolutely on your side. for me they are pretty balanced cause I don't swim in ammo early game. I often do meele early game and only use the pipe weapons for emergency

 
How about not having the ability to create guns to start at all unless you get lucky and find one along with the ammo.  Until then you're stuck with melee weapons.

Make the game last longer by adding more purpose and feeling of accomplishment instead of everything being handed to you on a silver platter.

 
Sal said:
How about not having the ability to create guns to start at all unless you get lucky and find one along with the ammo.  Until then you're stuck with melee weapons.

Make the game last longer by adding more purpose and feeling of accomplishment instead of everything being handed to you on a silver platter.
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Crafting a pipe weapon is not anything like it being handed to you on a silver platter.

Some folks can't even get their hands on the mats until they've had a game day or so in.

 
Early game, the only real balance for it is that 7.62 ammo is relatively scarce, but it does so much damage that if you don't just spray and pray you can check it last. I've always defaulted to the basic pistol, personally. I've liked stealth builds from the jump and when I spec into handguns I have several options. When I'm late game, the SMG works a treat with a silencer for me. 

 
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