PC Apparently we are all playing the game wrong

It is our own fault if we seek out how exactly it works and then meta off of it and then wonder why it feels so souless.
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I disagree. The formula becomes obvious after a few playthroughs, because it's too linear and predictable. And since the game allows the player to have that degree of agency over GS manipulation, you can't really blame them for trying to manipulate it.

 
I disagree. The formula becomes obvious after a few playthroughs, because it's too linear and predictable. And since the game allows the player to have that degree of agency over GS manipulation, you can't really blame them for trying to manipulate it.
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Yes, but the principle is still true. Even if they improve it to be out of the direct control of the player, make it more complex, and add random bits to it there will still be a formula and those who seek out the formula will feel much the same way as they do now. It would be great if it was random enough and complex enough that nobody could tell how it was operating simply through playing and observing and the only way to know would be to dig into the code.

What I am saying is that digging into the code is going to come with spoilers for your gameplay and may change how you play in way that someone who never looked at that code would do. But I am all for a better gamestages formula.

 
The problem with gamestage is not that it is too difficult or too easy. It is that it is a direct reflection and result of player activity. Gamestage is supposed to be the state of the universe in which we live. It is the force that delivers the adversity that we overcome as well as the blessings we receive.
[...]

Probability of meeting stronger enemies, coming up against tougher challenges, and getting better loot should all happen independently of what the player chooses to do. It is wrong that you know that by killing more zombies and mining more ore and upgrading more blocks you are going to get a tougher world and better loot as a direct consequence of that.

[...]

The algorithm needs to have some wax and wane to it, some randomness to it, be location based, and honestly...obfuscated from our view. Only then will we feel like we are a small part of the universe and that the actions we take can work to lift ourselves out of bad situations but not change the nature of the global reality of the universe itself.
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Fully agree. Randomizing across days, across location, across various factors would maybe help make it feel more organic and less of a "level * days alive" setup.

For quite a while now I've been saying similar, to give us higher challenge ratings in some areas and times, with more xp, more loot, but also more danger... wasteland? Much harder. Wasteland at night? Even more so! Stay in a quiet forest? Maybe less overall. Maybe the day after blood moon is safer. Maybe the days before blood moon are harder.

Maybe a radiated wind blew in reducing player attributes and increasing danger rating from zombies due to being "energized" or some such.

Not always easy to code in a straight forward fashion, but I hope it increasingly goes this direction too :)

 
Yes, but the principle is still true. Even if they improve it to be out of the direct control of the player, make it more complex, and add random bits to it there will still be a formula and those who seek out the formula will feel much the same way as they do now. It would be great if it was random enough and complex enough that nobody could tell how it was operating simply through playing and observing and the only way to know would be to dig into the code.
What I am saying is that digging into the code is going to come with spoilers for your gameplay and may change how you play in way that someone who never looked at that code would do. But I am all for a better gamestages formula.
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I'll go a step further and say that people don't even need to dig into the code. "min-maxing"/beating "the system" is as old as gaming itself. People didn't have access to the 'code' in the original Devil May Cry game, but they practiced and perfected the best combination of moves to get the optimal result. There is, certainly, a thrill in that accomplishment, but the downside is that those who experiment that heavily with a game or 'dig into the code' sometimes do no realize that those very activities provide a short term victory and sacrifice long term enjoyment.

I understand how the gamestage forumla works, but I personally refuse to care about it or let it dictate how I wish to play a particular map. I've seen a lot on the forums about how Agility builds are terrible and sub-optimal, but I love it and will continue to play it. :D

That said, there are those truly dedicated (or masochistic) who choose to learn the inner workings solely to figure out how to make the next playthrough more difficult for themselves.

 
I strongely disagree with some of this. The group of players that I have been playing with for 3+ years all have a lot of fun and we have dissected the crap out this game...down to how long a wooden door burns for in the forge VS normal wood, by the way go test that. :)
I think people just get burnt out like any other game, it's just now there is this trend going around the world where people just want to 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 and complain about anything and everything. 7 Days to Die is just another excuse for these pathetic people to 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 and fight with one another. If not 7D2D then it would be another game..in my opinion.
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I definitely do not disagree. I know some min maxers who analyze everything and enjoy that aspect. I was pointing to a specific subset of of players with my opinion.

"I think this is the baseline of why some people cant just enjoy the game"

Ghostlight for example had an entire thread about base design and defeating Demolishers and was throwing his hands up he couldnt, yet in this very thread says 16 was more challenging.

 
I definitely do not disagree. I know some min maxers who analyze everything and enjoy that aspect. I was pointing to a specific subset of of players with my opinion.
"I think this is the baseline of why some people cant just enjoy the game"

Ghostlight for example had an entire thread about base design and defeating Demolishers and was throwing his hands up he couldnt, yet in this very thread says 16 was more challenging.
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Ohhh.... I was so tired last night that must have not processed in my head correctely. In this case yes I agree.

 
Yes, but the principle is still true. Even if they improve it to be out of the direct control of the player, make it more complex, and add random bits to it there will still be a formula and those who seek out the formula will feel much the same way as they do now. It would be great if it was random enough and complex enough that nobody could tell how it was operating simply through playing and observing and the only way to know would be to dig into the code.
What I am saying is that digging into the code is going to come with spoilers for your gameplay and may change how you play in way that someone who never looked at that code would do. But I am all for a better gamestages formula.
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Yes, the principle is true, it's just that in this case, the game could be doing a lot more to deter that, as you have already said yourself. Being pedantic here because it's easy to dismiss a complaint by saying "you are playing the game wrong" (which is nonchalantly being said for a lot of things), instead of examining that complaint and looking for ways to improve the game.

 
Yes, but the principle is still true. Even if they improve it to be out of the direct control of the player, make it more complex, and add random bits to it there will still be a formula and those who seek out the formula will feel much the same way as they do now. It would be great if it was random enough and complex enough that nobody could tell how it was operating simply through playing and observing and the only way to know would be to dig into the code.
What I am saying is that digging into the code is going to come with spoilers for your gameplay and may change how you play in way that someone who never looked at that code would do. But I am all for a better gamestages formula.
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hmmm... that actually does make a lot of sense. Now I'm getting where you guys are coming from. I retract my previous statement disagreeing.

 
Ghostlight for example had an entire thread about base design and defeating Demolishers and was throwing his hands up he couldnt, yet in this very thread says 16 was more challenging.
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Generalisation for the win? Let me clarify a few points.

1) I never, ever said Demos could not be defeated. I simply said the bill for defeating them was extremely high, and depending on your settings and number of players meant that one poor sod (always me!) was spending 6 days in every 7 mining to keep everyone in ammo, and base repairs.

2) I was right since Demos got nerfed after that thread. Had they not, then A18 would have remained the more challenging - though challenging in all the wrong ways.

3) I specifically stated that A16 was more challenging after GS 4000 (day 150+). A16 had a challenge spike at that point that A18 does not have anywhere (other then Demolishers at GS 153, I guess?) which made A16 awesome. Awesome because the challenge was the horde became so strong they could actually overrun a Steel base by sheer attrition. I loved that. It was the right kind of challenge for this game. No horde I have ever seen in A17 or A18 comes anywhere near the GS 4000+ hordes I saw in A16.

And yes I do concede that part of the diminishing challenge is due to more familiarity with game mechanics, and my group getting better and better at working together and designing the perfect base. Not a huge amount though, just a little, because we still had 1000+ hours at A16 (which is easily the alpha we played most), and also a lot of those mechanics changed.

 
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