PC Another stamina thread [A17.1]

[Roland]

Just to put things in perspective. Hunger/Thirst was changed from 100% to 150% due to the outcry of overeating and wasting food and how useless all reciepes were now because anything over 100% was wasted.

Oops. thanks. I forgot about that. So this is another issue.

 

[Red Eagle LXIX]

Just to put things in perspective. Hunger/Thirst was changed from 100% to 150% due to the outcry of overeating and wasting food and how useless all reciepes were now because anything over 100% was wasted.

OverMax for eating was available to 25 over with Alpha 17

OverMax for drinking did not exist till 17.1

With 17.1 the OverMax value was set as Max + 50 (not 50% as is often implied and some wording of the 17.1 release notes state).

example for 17.1:

MIN -- MAX -- OVERMAX

A new character with no attribute perks will have for both food and water:

0/100 = 0% -- 100/100 = 100% -- 150/100 = 150%

A character who has perked into the all levels of Fortitude attribute will have for Water:

0/200 = 0% -- 200/200 = 100% -- 250/200 = 125%

A character who has perked into the all levels of Agility attribute will have for Food:

0/200 = 0% -- 200/200 = 100% -- 250/200 = 125%

 

[HungryZombie]

OverMax for eating was available to 25 over with Alpha 17OverMax for drinking did not exist till 17.1

With 17.1 the OverMax value was set as Max + 50 (not 50% as is often implied and some wording of the 17.1 release notes state).

example for 17.1:

MIN -- MAX -- OVERMAX

A new character with no attribute perks will have for both food and water:

0/100 = 0% -- 100/100 = 100% -- 150/100 = 150%

A character who has perked into the all levels of Fortitude attribute will have for Water:

0/200 = 0% -- 200/200 = 100% -- 250/200 = 125%

A character who has perked into the all levels of Agility attribute will have for Food:

0/200 = 0% -- 200/200 = 100% -- 250/200 = 125%

Hey I didn't write the angry posts, I just report about them! =)

 

[AtomicUs5000]

The percentage values of hunger and thirst are relative. It doesn't matter if they go from 0 to 100 or from 0 to 150 or from 0 to 10,000... what matters is the point where it starts to affect your stamina.

What I would do is show the hunger and hydration bars with visible lines representing where this threshold is.

When you get hungry or thirsty enough, and the bars shrink to before these lines, you know you are being affected and need to eat/drink.

It really is as simple as that.

Now, you can even have perks affect 2 things... One would be stomach size and the other would be hunger/thirst tolerance.

Stomach size increases the bar size, tolerance moves the threshhold line down.

 

[Red Eagle LXIX]

Hey I didn't write the angry posts, I just report about them! =)

Didn't think you did. I was just correcting that OverEat did exist in 17.0, just not OverDrink while adding the new numbers for 17.1.

 

[Red Eagle LXIX]

The percentage values of hunger and thirst are relative. It doesn't matter if they go from 0 to 100 or from 0 to 150 or from 0 to 10,000... what matters is the point where it starts to affect your stamina.
What I would do is show the hunger and hydration bars with visible lines representing where this threshold is.

When you get hungry or thirsty enough, and the bars shrink to before these lines, you know you are being affected and need to eat/drink.

It really is as simple as that.

Now, you can even have perks affect 2 things... One would be stomach size and the other would be hunger/thirst tolerance.

Stomach size increases the bar size, tolerance moves the threshhold line down.

Yep, this is correct.

And just to get clear on what that means for water at various levels (since Stamina/Food triggers at less than 100% the previously listed numbering covers that):

A new character with no attribute perks will experience slower regen due to Water level at:

75/100 = 75%

Or a fully Fortitude perked user will experience it at:

150/200 = 75%

 

[Aurelius]

Yep, this is correct.
And just to get clear on what that means for water at various levels (since Stamina/Food triggers at less than 100% the previously listed numbering covers that):

A new character with no attribute perks will experience slower regen due to Water level at:

75/100 = 75%

Or a fully Fortitude perked user will experience it at:

150/200 = 75%

Which means for all those perk points, you get an extra whopping 25 point buffer to work with - not worth it in my opinion. Are you positive that it kicks in at 75%, and *not* 75 points? (I haven't done any testing in this area yet...)

-A

Edit - To be clear, you do get more of a buffer below 75%, but I'm only really concerned if I'm getting the full regen benefit or not.

 

[Red Eagle LXIX]

Which means for all those perk points, you get an extra whopping 25 point buffer to work with - not worth it in my opinion. Are you positive that it kicks in at 75%, and *not* 75 points? (I haven't done any testing in this area yet...)
-A

Edit - To be clear, you do get more of a buffer below 75%, but I'm only really concerned if I'm getting the full regen benefit or not.

Yes, I positive that is how it currently works in 17.1.

I did a lot of testing when I was redoing the Stat Bars for my UI mod for 17.1 (this weekend the goal is to find a way to get water bar to fill faster).

I also had someone report it as a bug on the Steam side where they had purchased Fortitude raising to 160 and complained that they were getting the thirsty buff at 120/160 because they thought their OverMax would still be 150 not realizing it had raised with the Max to reach a value of 210.

 

[ilukaappledash]

Now random angry person making wild accusations instead of asking honest questions....that's another story.

There it is. Theres the attitude he is referring to and theres you simultaneously acting arrogant and claiming to never act arrogant in the same reply.

I hope its actually an attempt at satire and not a genuine thought.

Also overeating sounds like a terrible idea. If you overeat by 50% (assuming day 1 stats) and then attempt to do cardio, you will be sick. I get it from a gameplay perspective, but maybe max stamina didnt start depleting so quickly, we wouldnt have to include hidden things like this.

Maybe its in one of the paperback thriller journal entries but now that i do know about it, i still wouldnt overeat. Immersion wise i couldnt watch my dude consume an entire gazelle and then casually sprint up a mountain. Not until i try it in real life first.

 

[Roland]

There it is. Theres the attitude he is referring to and theres you simultaneously acting arrogant and claiming to never act arrogant in the same reply.
I hope its actually an attempt at satire and not a genuine thought.

I never claimed to never act trollish to people who are misbehaving. I said I am always courteous and helpful to new players who are asking questions. You act as though my supposedly horrible behavior is common. If so you should have no problem finding an example of me being rude to a new player who came here to ask a question about the game. I'll wait. Of course....it would require more reading than you're probably comfortable doing and you won't find it anyway. Oh, you'll find plenty of snarky comments but none of it directed to sincere players trying to get information about the game or the development process. I always answer those posts sincerely and with the best information I have. (Never ask me about landmines though)

Also overeating sounds like a terrible idea. If you overeat by 50% (assuming day 1 stats) and then attempt to do cardio, you will be sick. I get it from a gameplay perspective, but maybe max stamina didnt start depleting so quickly, we wouldnt have to include hidden things like this.

I agree that it isn't necessary. TFP put it in because they knew that people didn't like seeing the max stamina start going down immediately after they ate some food. Then they increased it because people weren't eating larger meals because they didn't want to wait until they were at 50% max stamina to eat and they didn't want the extra wasted. "Overeating" truly is a gamey feature that makes it so that there is a nice delay between eating and when stamina starts decreasing and someone who is at 90% fullness can eat steak and potatoes and not have any benefits wasted.

Maybe its in one of the paperback thriller journal entries but now that i do know about it, i still wouldnt overeat. Immersion wise i couldnt watch my dude consume an entire gazelle and then casually sprint up a mountain.

Oh, so YOU can post stuff dripping with sarcasm? sheesh. Maybe you ought to channel Twilight Sparkle a bit more than Apple Dash and you won't feel so aggressively dismissive about reading in general.

Not until i try it in real life first.

So then you have tried the following in real life I take it (because if not you better stop doing it in the game)

Carried 64 concrete blocks in a backpack

Chopped down 5 fully grown trees in one day using a stone tool fashioned from woven grass

Chopped to bits 5 large boulders and extracting usable materials within using the same tool...on the same day.

Interacted with zombies in any way.

Stayed awake for 30 days straight

Crafted iron tools using clay molds and raw iron that you smelted in a homemade forge made out of clay and rocks using a bellows you fashioned from the hide of animals you hunted or leather seats you found in a building somewhere.

Do I need to go on?

 

[ilukaappledash]

I think the above post was a response to me. Although you know me, im all about that not-reading

Sadly though, that guy AGar has only 2 posts in these forums and he feels a little bit of hostility from the moderators somehow? Maybe he just hasnt come to love and appreciate the straight shooting commentary that is Roland yet. Maybe he is a troll. It is hard to tell sometimes.

I personally dont want super realism. Its convenient fun being able to grab all the resources needed to build a little base and carry them about. But the stamina system just gets me down in its current state. And im hanging around until it is changed or i get the motivation to put in the effort to download someone elses mod that fixes my issues

But who knows, maybe all my problems could be solved with even a little bit of reading up on the game before coming here to rant.

I need to go watch the My Little Pony episode where Rainbow Dash learns to love reading, maybe that will inspire me. (Season 2 Episode 16 Read It and Weep for those who are curious)

 

[hotpoon]

I agree that it isn't necessary. TFP put it in because they knew that people didn't like seeing the max stamina start going down immediately after they ate some food. Then they increased it because people weren't eating larger meals because they didn't want to wait until they were at 50% max stamina to eat and they didn't want the extra wasted. "Overeating" truly is a gamey feature that makes it so that there is a nice delay between eating and when stamina starts decreasing and someone who is at 90% fullness can eat steak and potatoes and not have any benefits wasted.

Well there you go. That's another thing solved by lowering the point at which max stamina gets affected. If it only starts degrading at 10% of the food bar, then people have the rest of the food bar to eat as big or as small meals as they want instead of constantly trying to stay topped up with small meals.

 

[hotpoon]

But the stamina system just gets me down in its current state.

Same. I have faith in the Fun Pimps though. If we keep giving them useful, unemotional feedback, I don't see why they wouldn't be reasonable enough to at least consider.

Enjoy your My Little Pony. I think I'd rather face Blood Moon on foot than subject myself to that.

 

[ilukaappledash]

Enjoy your My Little Pony. I think I'd rather face Blood Moon on foot than subject myself to that.

Few Men can stand in the presence of a Blood Moon Horde without fear. Even fewer can watch Multicolour smol horses. Stay strong Gentlemen.

But thats why i keep coming back, lurking forums, reading updates, just waiting for the moment when something clicks and i dive back in. Woe to the hordes on that glorious of days.

 

[hotpoon]

Apologies I don't know how to get the games assets, so the below isn't the correct font and icons, but serves as a mock-up proposal of how the hunger affecting stamina mechanic could potentially be displayed clearer:

 

[Razorpony]

The problem comes when you assume that your trollish responses are ONLY going to be seen by those pesky misbehaving posters. Anyone can read them no matter if they've posted before or are brand new and just lurking looking for answers. I mean, I get it. I love responding with snark and sarcasm. It's a bit different when you are in a position of authority, however. Not a good look, especially to people who might be new and not understand the history and dynamic between certain people on the forums.

 

[fazi]

There is no game in the world you know how to play first time you start it.We have youtube now, its not like 15 years ago.First time i started the game, i had no idea that zombies rut at night , no idea about 7 day horde.Then, i restarted, built a base, and got killed on day 7 because i did not know about spider zombies, so i restarted again...

 

[VenomsLust]

Tooltip when hovering over the bars is a good idea. Someone else suggested it as well.
Maybe if they made the pencil look like a paper clip and it would jump out of the scenery and talk to you with word bubbles while bouncing in the corner....

[Clippy]: I see you're starving. Would you like help with that?

 

[DrTeath]

Funny thing being is that getting Water for a new player is one of the most hardest things to do.
When i started with 7D2D, i did not know my hand from my foot. And did not know you needed a cooking pot to boil water ( every game has different mechanisms ). When i knew that detail ( Google ), finding it was hell ( at that time, those alphas cooking pot RNG was extreme low ). And all that time i had cans in my toolbar that can be used for cooking water. And i did not know it!! And that also brings me to another grip for 10 alphas. You can boil water with a can but you can not boil anything else with it ( i call bs on that ).

Stuff like this is a typical issue with 7D2D where veterans expect new player to know these "tricks". Or even the devs being arrogant how people need to read a journal, when most new players are just trying to survive and not getting eaten by Zombies.

Its veterans that know when they can simply stand around and do things like inventory management / quest / journal looking without being zombie attacked. And at the same time, its Veterans that do not look at Journals because they think its useless information because they are veterans. One of those catch 22s. :smile-new:

But yea, the starting experience can be very brutal for new players. And can be very off putting. Even in the old Alphas. A17 really ramped up this issue more with the whole Stamina drain, 50 sleepers in POIs, the broken stealth ( so new player have a hard time falling back on that ) etc.

And no, do not bother commenting how you can do better, sorry people, you are all veterans who know the ins and outs of 7D2D. You can not relive / replicate the experience new players to the game. Even running A17 for the first time, you already had massive knowledge of the game mechanics and crafting systems.

Getting a mini tutorial for empty cans + dirty water is probably a very good starter addition. Why do we even have a campfire tutorial if we have no cooking part to it.

My intention was to instruct, not to come off as condescending . When i started playing myself, i had the advantage of having watched a few lets plays ( Games4Kickz is my fav 7days streamer) , so i had an idea of what i was doing going in. But, I still had to ask questions, and still do from time to time.

So when someone shows up confused, I'll offer any insight i can.

 

[mrflippy]

Part of the problem here may be that the journal entries don't fully explain mechanics.

For example, the "Survival" entry does talk about caps and health/stamina damage and how to heal damage. However, I couldn't find any explanation of when or why stamina or health damage happens. Maybe the intent is for the player to figure this out on their own, but if I'm surprised by zombies and am fighting for my life (especially as a new player!) then I'm not going to have a clear idea of what lowered my caps. I'm not a new player, and after playing the latest experimental for a few hours, I have some ideas on what's going on, but I'm still not clear on how the new system works.

Likewise, the journal entry for "Hot Weather" pops up when you're overheating, but doesn't actually explain the effects of hot weather, just how to avoid overheating. The info text for the overheating status effect does have more information, but is only available while you're overheating, so if you get indoors to safety before reading, then you might not find the information.