PC Another stamina thread [A17.1]

First of all orange doesn’t mean starving. Orange is a warning that you should handle it soon. After orange it turns red and then after that blinking red. Blinking red is starving.
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I've never noticed a variance in colour of the icon, but then I'm not the most observant person. Regardless, I think the better question is, why would I need to think about eating soon if my food bar is 80% full, or even 50% full? I assume it is because the max stamina starts taking damage as soon as I'm not full, and of course that begs the next question: why does the max stamina need to take damage when you are not actually starving? Why not make the max stamina only start decreasing when the characters food is critically low?

 
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I've never noticed a variance in colour of the icon, but then I'm not the most observant person. Regardless, I think the better question is, why would I need to think about eating soon if my food bar is 80% full, or even 50% full? I assume it is because the max stamina starts taking damage as soon as I'm not full, and of course that begs the next question: why does the max stamina need to take damage when you are not actually starving? Why not make the max stamina only start decreasing when the characters food is critically low?
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Nailed it!

 
I've never noticed a variance in colour of the icon, but then I'm not the most observant person. Regardless, I think the better question is, why would I need to think about eating soon if my food bar is 80% full, or even 50% full? I assume it is because the max stamina starts taking damage as soon as I'm not full, and of course that begs the next question: why does the max stamina need to take damage when you are not actually starving? Why not make the max stamina only start decreasing when the characters food is critically low?
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You’ve never noticed the other colors because you are getting plenty of early warning. The game used to not give blatant warnings until the player was at 25% fullness and then the danger icon wouldn’t hit until 0%. People complained saying that the warnings were too close to when death would occur. TFP listened and now you are complaining that the warning is way to soon?

As for how hunger affects max stamina and when is the best time for it to start making it go down is definitely a topic up for debate. There are going to be lots of opinions on the matter. You and Hellsmoke would like max stamina to almost never go down. Others feel it doesn’t have enough impact in the game. I personally think it’s fine where it’s at and wouldn’t want it to slide any more in your direction than 17.1 took it.

I think it is close to the middle of the two extremes that we see people asking for on the forums so where does it leave those who want extreme options? Modding.

 
You’ve never noticed the other colors because you are getting plenty of early warning. The game used to not give blatant warnings until the player was at 25% fullness and then the danger icon wouldn’t hit until 0%. People complained saying that the warnings were too close to when death would occur. TFP listened and now you are complaining that the warning is way to soon?
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If some people did feel like they were not warned in ample time, I imagine it may be because they had no idea where their food level was, so the starving came as a surprise. I can understand that, and this is the reason I personally use Red's hud mod. I want to be able to glance over and see where my food level is at any time.

As for how hunger affects max stamina and when is the best time for it to start making it go down is definitely a topic up for debate.
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I'm glad it's up for debate.

There are going to be lots of opinions on the matter. You and Hellsmoke would like max stamina to almost never go down. Others feel it doesn’t have enough impact in the game. I personally think it’s fine where it’s at and wouldn’t want it to slide any more in your direction than 17.1 took it.
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Who are these weirdos? lol

 
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Welcome to the freak showhttps://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?106330-If-you-don-t-get-hungry-you-ll-never-starve!
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Oh that thread? I guess you missed my comment on there. I don't feel that it's related to what I'm suggesting to be honest.

That thread is saying if you stand still in one spot, your food should slowly drain. I always assumed it did that already. Now knowing that it doesn't, I wouldn't mind if it did - so long as it drained really slowly.

What I'm suggesting is that your max stamina shouldn't get affected by your hunger until your food level is critical. At the moment, your max stamina is almost immediately affected as soon as you aren't full. If there are people who want your max stamina affected even sooner, then..well I don't know that it can be affected sooner. At this point we are already at the extreme end, are we not?

I could be wrong because I haven't read a fraction of the complaints that you've been subjected to, but I don't see anyone complaining about normal stamina - it is the max stamina so severely linked to food that is the biggest gripe...at least in my mind and the few threads I've read.

Also just want to take this opportunity to compliment you and the other Fun Pimps staff for being so hands on with the forums. It's really refreshing to see devs actually interested in feedback now days.

 
Nothing quite like reading feedback from the everyday human being and reading responses from people who have far too much time on their hands.
*sarcasm* Wait a sec normie, you havent modded the game repeatedly and read every single journal/forum entry regarding stamina and hunger management? SHAME ON YOU! *sarcasm end*

Stamina and hunger management have always played an integral part to the gameplay of 7dtd in the 800 hours of gameplay i have racked up. But they never impeded gameplay.

And when the mods start flaming people for not wanting to pause the game and read through journals instead of killing zombies or building deathforts something is wrong.

Maybe Roland thinks that the journal entries are on par with the Great Gatsby and that those who wish to indulge themselves in the more organic experience are not worth the time of day, but in the end, once you get to the early stages of the mid game, food and drink are as arbitrary as ever. So why make the less interesting aspects of a very very fun game more tedious to new/early game players?
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Exactly this, i've spent maybe 50 hours playing and every time i have a question i come to the forum and look it up. However i always see the mods being complete d's to everyone who is a newbie asking question. " Why don't you read this, idiot." basically. Sure stickys are there and hand holding shouldn't be necessary, but the point is to help people out. Not completely turn them away from the game.

 
hotpoon makes a great point that I think hasn't been quite addressed which correct me if wrong is this:

80% isn't "starving" but it may as well be because at that point you've already lost 20% stamina, which is hugely significant early game where stamina is already at a premium. Intuitively I don't think stamina should drop until truly "Hungry". So maybe starting somewhere in the 25-50% range. There's already a tutorial that includes making a campfire, why not take the 5 minutes to add one more step to the tutorial which tells you why cooking is so important?

That said, I haven't personally played with the changes where you can over eat to 150% which should help significantly though, but still, it basically means you should never drop below 100% ever. Eating to constantly full, in fact not even just full but stuffed (150%) you'll manage to be the first obese/diabetic person in the zombie apocalypse...

PS - as an aside, in real life in some ways hunger induces a stamina RISE not decrease. Anyone who has done intermittent fasting with just 1 or 2 meals a day knows what i'm talking about here. Cortisol/adrenaline kicks in and gives you MORE energy when you're hungry.

All this said, the changes only bothered me too much until I understood it. I played with a friend and we dropped to like 40 max stamina before we understand why because at first it simply was not intuitive.

 
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What I'm suggesting is that your max stamina shouldn't get affected by your hunger until your food level is critical. At the moment, your max stamina is almost immediately affected as soon as you aren't full. If there are people who want your max stamina affected even sooner, then..well I don't know that it can be affected sooner. At this point we are already at the extreme end, are we not?
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Food can essentially go to 150% and your max stamina will stay at max for the whole time your food goes down to 100%. The problem is that the GUI doesn't really tell you that you can overeat to 150%, it may or may not be explained in the journal.

IMO instead of this overeating stuff the food and water scale should go from 0 to 100% again. At 66% (or make it 65%) food max stamina should go slowly down (max stamina can be seen in the GUI, it is the players decision whether to act then or later when a thirst icon appears).

At 50% the first (orange) hunger icon would appear and that would be perfectly reasonably. And that without changing anything of the mechanic at all, just by scaling the numbers so that 100% is really 100%.

 
You had a cooking pot but couldnt get enough water?
1: put glass jars in toolbar

2: find a body of water ( a lake, a pond, etc )

3: hold jars in hand (will also work with empty cans)

4: aim cross hair at water and right click

5: boil water in campfire

check cabinets , under sinks, and toilets for empty jars and jars of murky water.
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Funny thing being is that getting Water for a new player is one of the most hardest things to do.

When i started with 7D2D, i did not know my hand from my foot. And did not know you needed a cooking pot to boil water ( every game has different mechanisms ). When i knew that detail ( Google ), finding it was hell ( at that time, those alphas cooking pot RNG was extreme low ). And all that time i had cans in my toolbar that can be used for cooking water. And i did not know it!! And that also brings me to another grip for 10 alphas. You can boil water with a can but you can not boil anything else with it ( i call bs on that ).

Stuff like this is a typical issue with 7D2D where veterans expect new player to know these "tricks". Or even the devs being arrogant how people need to read a journal, when most new players are just trying to survive and not getting eaten by Zombies.

Its veterans that know when they can simply stand around and do things like inventory management / quest / journal looking without being zombie attacked. And at the same time, its Veterans that do not look at Journals because they think its useless information because they are veterans. One of those catch 22s. :smile-new:

But yea, the starting experience can be very brutal for new players. And can be very off putting. Even in the old Alphas. A17 really ramped up this issue more with the whole Stamina drain, 50 sleepers in POIs, the broken stealth ( so new player have a hard time falling back on that ) etc.

And no, do not bother commenting how you can do better, sorry people, you are all veterans who know the ins and outs of 7D2D. You can not relive / replicate the experience new players to the game. Even running A17 for the first time, you already had massive knowledge of the game mechanics and crafting systems.

Getting a mini tutorial for empty cans + dirty water is probably a very good starter addition. Why do we even have a campfire tutorial if we have no cooking part to it.

 
At 50% the first (orange) hunger icon would appear and that would be perfectly reasonably. And that without changing anything of the mechanic at all, just by scaling the numbers so that 100% is really 100%.
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Yeah, I think people are a little too caught up with the percentages tbh. Having a 100 point hunger bar and starting to lose stamina at 50 would be literally the same as it is right now. Though it might be a little less confusing I guess.

Keeping your hunger meter between 100 and 150 needs the exact same amount of food as keeping it between 50 and 100 for example. It doesn't mean you have to stuff yourself all the time (and become obese...).

And yes, it is explained in the journal :p

 
Exactly this, i've spent maybe 50 hours playing and every time i have a question i come to the forum and look it up. However i always see the mods being complete d's to everyone who is a newbie asking question. " Why don't you read this, idiot." basically. Sure stickys are there and hand holding shouldn't be necessary, but the point is to help people out. Not completely turn them away from the game.
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Actually, I've never been anything but helpful to newbies who have a question. I love helping new players who ask questions. As far as I can tell the other mods are also helpful to new players asking questions.

Now random angry person making wild accusations instead of asking honest questions....that's another story.

 
Yeah, I think people are a little too caught up with the percentages tbh. Having a 100 point hunger bar and starting to lose stamina at 50 would be literally the same as it is right now. Though it might be a little less confusing I guess.
Keeping your hunger meter between 100 and 150 needs the exact same amount of food as keeping it between 50 and 100 for example. It doesn't mean you have to stuff yourself all the time (and become obese...).

And yes, it is explained in the journal :p
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It would indeed be pretty much the same, so maybe this is the solution, because it would be so much better imo.

I admit, I've never read the journal at all in A17 LOL. the 70% statistic of people not reading probably sounds about right. Only way to get people to read is to make it in your face, which is why the newbie tutorial can be helpful to clarify most important things.

 
PS - as an aside, in real life in some ways hunger induces a stamina RISE not decrease. Anyone who has done intermittent fasting with just 1 or 2 meals a day knows what i'm talking about here. Cortisol/adrenaline kicks in and gives you MORE energy when you're hungry.
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Makes sense on an evolutionary basis. If you're hungry then you clearly need to get out and chase down some food. Lowering your stamina at that point would be a really dumb thing for your body to do. If it wants to keep on living, that is.

 
Ok, so having a better understanding of the system now, here is what I would personally recommend:

1) Hunger reset to 100%, not 150%

Can you overdrink as well? If so, then same for thirst.

2. Water & Food bars are shown in the hud

I remember they always used to be in the hud, and then they were removed, so I've been using Red's hud to replace them, but I think they should be added back to vanilla.

This eliminates the need for orange heads popping up demanding you to eat.

It is also easier to see exactly at what point your stamina gets affected seeing as both hunger and stamina levels are in plain view.

3. Max stamina only starts decreasing at 10% hunger

If I were calling the shots, I would not link hunger and stamina together at all, but I'm guessing the devs are attached to the idea, so in that case, I would only request that one's max stamina only starts decreasing once food levels are critical (i.e 10%).

This would solve most people's stamina gripes.

Edit to add: it would also solve some peoples food gripes, like where you think you have to keep stuffing your cake hole because of orange heads shouting at you. If food is only a problem at 10%, and you can see plainly when you are approaching 10% then it makes things easy to understand and mitigate. Therefore, less bitching and moaning at poor Roland.

 
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I don't disagree with the 10% suggestion personally, but it sounds like TFP is basically married to the idea of stamina/food being connected. If that's the case the only compromise that I think will actually work for all parties involved is about 50% being the point of penalty, which is actually the same thing they're doing now, it's just bringing the max from 150 down to 100 again but also the point of penalty from 100 to 50.

And yea, food drink on hud should be a no brainer.

 
Ok, so having a better understanding of the system now, here is what I would personally recommend:
1) Hunger reset to 100%, not 150%

Can you overdrink as well? If so, then same for thirst.
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I'm perfectly happy with this. You can overdrink. The only issue is that the distance from 100 to 50 is shorter than the distance from 150 to 75 so you will be reaching the point where max stamina starts taking a dive faster. But they could probably tweak the rate to be as fast or slow as they want.

2. Water & Food bars are shown in the hudI remember they always used to be in the hud, and then they were removed, so I've been using Red's hud to replace them, but I think they should be added back to vanilla.

This eliminates the need for orange heads popping up demanding you to eat.

It is also easier to see exactly at what point your stamina gets affected seeing as both hunger and stamina levels are in plain view.
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I'm also not opposed to this. I used to be because I wanted less indicators on the screen instead of more and then in 17.0 max stamina and hunger were 1:1 so it would have been redundant. But now that fullness goes to 150 and max stamina doesn't start to degrade until fullness is at 75 they are not synonymous and now that there are more indicators than ever before on the screen it is basically a lost cause on that score so whatever. Maybe just a red line attached to the bottom of the stamina bar that has a black line at the halfway point so you know if the bar empties to that point your current stamina max will take a hit.

3. Max stamina only starts decreasing at 10% hungerIf I were calling the shots, I would not link hunger and stamina together at all, but I'm guessing the devs are attached to the idea, so in that case, I would only request that one's max stamina only starts decreasing once food levels are critical (i.e 10%).

This would solve most people's stamina gripes.
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I respect your opinion but heartily disagree. If someone can mod it so it is like this I would be willing to try it to see if I'm wrong in practice but in theory that would completely make this aspect of the survival game irrelevant. I think halfway to starvation to start affecting your max stamina is plenty generous. But that is my own opinion.

Edit to add: it would also solve some peoples food gripes, like where you think you have to keep stuffing your cake hole because of orange heads shouting at you. If food is only a problem at 10%, and you can see plainly when you are approaching 10% then it makes things easy to understand and mitigate. Therefore, less bitching and moaning at poor Roland.
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Bitching and moaning keeps my stamina bar maxxed! ;)

 
1) Hunger reset to 100%, not 150%

Can you overdrink as well? If so, then same for thirst.
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Just to put things in perspective. Hunger/Thirst was changed from 100% to 150% due to the outcry of overeating and wasting food and how useless all reciepes were now because anything over 100% was wasted.

 
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