Snipped for length. Ooh Matron!
First up - am enjoying this convo, so thank you.
So....fix the glitch that allows players to attack through bars? That way you do not immediately invalidate every base design that involves a kill box with the horde collected into it and the players shooting in from outside.
The glitch was the reason it was being used. Fix the glitch? They find another. Fix that glitch? On to the next. The problem was glitches proving irresistable - especially as game stage increases. The FIX is to try and make the glitches pointless; the Demolished is a flawed first attempt at doing that. Endless ramp / drop? Boom. Invincible spot? Boom. There is clearly nerfing and tweaking ahead; but if the glitch no longer worked, a large number of players would stop 'enjoying' that style and start 'enjoying' the next glitchy one that meant they were invincible; continuing to throw ammo supply, game-stage difficulty and need to explore different options obsolete; rendering much of the devs work on those aspects useless.
However most "fortress builder" players like us like to gradually add to the on-going fortress as the arms race with the horde escalates. You are suggesting a complete rethink before GS 153, which would mean everything you invested in the base up to then would be a waste of time and resource unless you were already taking Demos into account and thus had ruled out the "classic kill box" style you described. We've already had options taken off the table in terms of building, right from day #1.
I'm gonna disagree with you here - it requires a rethink, but it doesn't rule out adding on as you go, nor render your early base useless. Kill box, turrets, fences, spikes, pits, ramps all have a place, but you can't just build one thing easrly and rely on it indefinitely.
Yes, there is nerfing and tweaking of the Demolisher ahead, but in the meantime there's room for creative thinking. Not everyone is playing up to day 100+; I know plenty who call it quits on day 49 (A throwback to when the horde's reset at that point) or never make it past 21 - but the end game is unclear, for the moment TFP have no 'end' point, so you play until you're either bored, want to try something new or until you have sufficient (And deserved) bragging rights for long survival. The plan does appear to be to have specific 'end' or at least specific 'natural end point' - and I don't think it's day 200.
I don't think you've had options taken off the table, indeed I feel there are now significantly MORE options, but maybe not enough time has been given to them to balance, sink in and become accepted. Bases between alpha 8 and 16 didn't actually change much - I remember stilts used to be 'the' thing, until Zeds were made to attack stilts. Underground was 'the' thing until zed's started digging. Killboxes were 'the' thing until demolishers.
This is very early days for a big change to how something works which has been fairly steady for a LONG time, so it's natural it's a big deal.
I read into the Devs motives that they don't want there to be a 'the' thing, but rather a players own preference utilizing a variety of options available to them, and your feedback will no doubt add to that discussion; but - and I'm sorry to sound like an ass here if I do - none of this stops you from building and using a killbox effectively, nor adding to your base as gamestage increases, nor testing out genius designs that work, nor genius ideas that fail - but once again this is early access alpha, and we're SUPPOSED to be testing things out, succeeding and failing in varying degrees to better balance the final product. So please, continue these discussions, but try to remember it's an ongoing process that reflects (and needs to reflect) SP, MP, PVE, PVP, all the devs have learned up to this point and all they'll learn from now;and the multiple opinions being fed back to them in varying tones, with varying clarity and varying value.
But at the end of the day; this is not the final game and nothing we are doing or building has a very long lifespan - so don't waste your emotion on the bases you build; this is all just playtesting and bugfixing - the fact it's fun, and that our opinions are considered is an extra that not all games and players have.
Ironically, if their explosion was toned down to say 1000 instead of 5000, they might actually be quite fun to try to deal with. [Reducing block damage is no use since it makes all other zombie type impotent.] As it is, one Demolisher slip and your base is toast, so you feel reluctant to invest much in it in the first place.!
Then stop investing so much. Do Neebs gaming get upset when they all die horribly? I think we, as players, could maybe stand to be alittle less precious and have a little more fun; and I reckon 'Hey MM, this is sick; we got annihilated with a strong base, great fun, but seriously nerf this jobby-sniffing Demolisher' is MUCH more likely to land than 'Hey MM, I build a steel base and it was destroyed, this is crap; you need to fix this so that my base doesn't get destroyed or I'm not playing anymore!'.
To be clear - I'm not suggesting that's what you said; I find your tone much more reasonable and stimulating than certain others on this forum - but I think when typing rather than talking it's important to remember EVERYTHING sounds much sterner and less friendly than it is, and the Devs have had 18 alphas of people howling over dramatically about every little change; so framing it positively as tribute to the continued effort and love they put into this game makes the medicine MUCH more agreeable.
I like designing OP things.
Here's your problem, and your opportunity. A capable, clever and focused player OUGHT to be able to build an OP base - but not EVERYBODY should. If you put in the thought, put in the effort, get the materials, make the base and get upgrades, traps, turrets and all that then ABSOLUTELY it should be POSSIBLE to perfect an auto kill base - but it should never be easy, it should never be even moderate; ad it must not throw the rest of the game - SP or MP out of whack too badly. Risk vs reward.
I'm still seeing & hearing players testing, and I am testing workable anti-demolisher fortifications using dart traps, auto turrets, junk turrets, electric fences, blade traps and player involvement / non involvement. I'm 100% certain someone will find things that work - but if it they don't, then that's no good, and I'm 100% confident the Demolisher will be nerfed. Equally, if it turns out to be a one 'the' thing that works, and it's exploity or cheesy and everybody does it because they have to; then that's no good either; and am sure it'll be looked at. If it turns out there are a few things you can do that require thought, effort and time - then we'll have found a balance that moves the game forward in a direction that works for Devs and players alike. That's what we're going for.
Bah. I wanted Roland to answer. But yeah, there you have the problem. You can easily get them extremely early. No base you can build by day 14 can engage Demolishers and survive them without exploits.
No base you can build that you can imagine - but there's the challenge; and if not then build something longer term and run, hide, hold off or distract the horde in the meantime. Or turn it off. Of change the day it happens on.
You got a LOT of possible options for testing different methods - if you're clever enough and dedicated enough and want to; use 'em and let us know how you get on; we'd LOVE to hear it.
If you don't want to spend your time that way, cool - but please remember there are other players who are; and TFP want their feedback before they make any decisions based on the players who are giving up after one attempt.
Final addendum - if any of this sounds like it's insulting and pointed at you, or anyone else specifically, it's not - I'm trying to talk in broad terms and if that does not come across I apologize without reservation. Great chat though.
