PC Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

[SonicSonedit]

I recently tested the biker zombie on nightmare and he caught up to me and hit me from behind while I ran from him.

That's weird, he didn't catch up with us. The only who could catch up was feral vulture.

Maybe the difference that we usually traverse terrain with a lot of obstacles and I noticed that in A18 zombies have hard time navigating terrain in comprasion to A17.

To save you from yourself

No, talking seriously, a lot of people would really appreciate to disable/reduce sleepers and instead increase a number of zombies roaming streets around POIs. Sleepers are not ready for production the way they are implemented now. You probably know it well yourself, so why don't let us play without them as an option?

Sorry for emotions in previous post.

Don’t go to the trader.Start scrapping every weapon you find.

You mean that there is only one best most efficient way to play and you’re unwilling to sacrifice efficiency to make knowingly sub-optimal choices for the sake of playing differently. Well, that is going to be a problem in any game and any rebalance. As soon as you discover the new optimal path you’ll be back to complaining about being “forced” to play that one way again.

No, what I mean is, that game currently specifically designed the way this is most efficient playstyle. And it really contrasts to how game played before and many people don't like it.The problem is not trader himself per se, but how overpowered his rewards are. Why trader provides you with ton of ammo, complete steel tools and weapons of high grade, tons of meds? Why you didn't make so quests reward you with key materials like weapon parts instead of weapon parts, forged steel, concrete, blueprints of forge, workbench, cement mixer and chem station, wrenches? The trader should help bypass certrain chokepoins of player progression, but currently he just makes most of other game content irrelevant.

 

[Kalarro]

Literally no one can defend the state of melee from a game development POV.

This week I will introduce a friend to 7d2d, and Im worried about what he will say when he tries to hit stuff.

And I have no problem doing it right, once you get used to it its easy, it just.... doesnt feel right.

 

[Roland]

No, talking seriously, a lot of people would really appreciate to disable/reduce sleepers and instead increase a number of zombies roaming streets around POIs. Sleepers are not ready for production the way they are implemented now. You probably know it well yourself, so why don't let us play without them as an option? Sorry for emotions in previous post.

No problem about the emotion. Here is the serious answer to your question of why not give an option to disable/reduce sleepers until they are finished: You paid to be part of a developing game's development process. The dev's first priority is to get things tested and get feedback and see how things are working and that is not well accomplished by giving players the means to remove the things the devs want tested. If you really only want to play stuff that is in a finished state then shelve the game until it is done and then pull it out and play with it.

No, what I mean is, that game currently specifically designed the way this is most efficient playstyle. And it really contrasts to how game played before and many people don't like it.The problem is not trader himself per se, but how overpowered his rewards are. Why trader provides you with ton of ammo, complete steel tools and weapons of high grade, tons of meds? Why you didn't make so quests reward you with key materials like weapon parts instead of weapon parts, forged steel, concrete, blueprints of forge, workbench, cement mixer and chem station, wrenches? The trader should help bypass certrain chokepoins of player progression, but currently he just makes most of other game content irrelevant.

The trader exists so that people who want to play their survival game through trading can do so. If you just want to play your game primarily through trading with the trader you can do so. That is by design. But you can also ignore the trader and survive without it through scavenging and crafting your own stuff. Why does the trader having everything you need or want make the other game content irrelevant? If you scavenge and craft everything then the trader's content becomes irrelevant. It just depends on what you like to do and how you like to play.

 

[-Holo-]

From your vantage point perhaps. But I have a better view than you.
It’s not so much that they keep moving the goal posts as much as you never understood where they are going. People thought A15 or A16 was their intended destinations but no. People thought A17 was their intended destination and were enraged by it because they liked the previous version better. People think A18 is the intended destination but it’s not.

I think much of the complaints and disappointment comes from how well A15 and A16 played made it very unique. There were flaws there, especially in A16, but the core 'felt' the same (except sleepers who ruined that). In A15 I think a lot of people (like myself) thought that if they'd just add more cool features and content, the game would be even more awesome.

But A16 removed system and brought new ones that did not really work that well (sleepers), A17 removed a whole lot of systems, and A18 , while better then A17 in my eyes hasn't brought any of that back except some books.

A17 and A18 is pretty much a whole new (and very different) game from earlier versions.

Some of it can be modded of-course, but there are all those game-systems completely gone and as far as I know won't come back, which cannot be modded back in. And for us who loved how it was feels saddened since there is no other game that has those system.

During A14 and A15 I never looked that much forward for the game to go gold hastily since I didn't mind more alphas that brought more improvements, but now I can't wait for it to go gold and let modders (hopefully) restore the glory of it.

 

[-Holo-]

A16 with War of the Walkers is easily the best version of the game so far, IMO.
I don't understand why people like A17 or A18. 18 is better than 17, but its no 16.

The melee in 18 is a shining example of terrible programming. The distance you can get hit is absolutely bizarre and simply terrible.

Its easily seen when you play A16. They utterly ruined the melee hit detection in 17 and 18 = go play 16 and see.

Literally no one can defend the state of melee from a game development POV. To prove this point, in A18, youll get hit if a zombie starts its hit animation while you're a certain distance away = Even if you move out of the way in A18, you'll still take a hit. Games in the 1990's were programmed like that.

It's not like that in A16 but it is an A18....and its terrible.

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Bro, just do youre self a HUGE fave and play A16 War of the Walkers. Its amazing.

I'll have to check that out, My by far biggest gripe with A16 is the borked sleepers, know if that's been touched on in the mod?

 

[Ghostlight]

The melee in 18 is a shining example of terrible programming. The distance you can get hit is absolutely bizarre and simply terrible.
Its easily seen when you play A16. They utterly ruined the melee hit detection in 17 and 18 = go play 16 and see.

This cannot be denied. Melee has been terrible since A17. I got used to it, but it's still terrible.

 

[Ghostlight]

The thing TFP did that ruined the game in many ways was they listened to people who had already exhausted the game and were exploiting it.
TFP listened to those people. And it was stupid. They listened to people who played the game long who knew how to cheat the game.

That's not how you develop a game. You don't change your game mid-development based on what people who have over-played the game already are telling you. There's a very certain point where exploiters don't need to be listened to.

And thats what TFP did = They listened to cheaters who said "You just need to craft 100 axes" and they removed LBD. Very dumb way to develop a game.

They also listened to the bad/unskilled players. Players who were speccing entirely into non-combat skills then getting owned in POIs and crying they were too hard for example. Just look at the nerf to POI zombies. POIs are a joke now, and hardly any threat whatsoever until your GS hits a ridiculous value. On top of that they added Junk Turrets, my God, the most comically OP item I've seen ever as far as clearing POIs goes. Might as well have removed all zombies from indoors and just open a straight path to the loot room.

 

[Ghostlight]

I recently tested the biker zombie on nightmare and he caught up to me and hit me from behind while I ran from him. That’s at least one zombie type. Also if you don’t want to be faster than them then wear armor and don’t take movement bonuses. Then you’ll have a situation where you need to build a base.
Don’t go to the trader.

Start scrapping every weapon you find.

Translation: Play the game in a completely stupid way and many of its worst failings will disappear. Oh yeah I forgot, this is called "role-playing". LMAO.

And you're wrong, no zombie can catch a player unless the player is stupid enough to run along a road.

 

[Ghostlight]

Gotta disagree here... I played all 17.4 & 18, up until I quit on 30 minute days. *THAT* had a little pressure. In my final playthrough, I went ahead and switched to 60 minute days... I went practically bat-♥♥♥♥ crazy at nights waiting for the sun to come up.

Why did you wait? A18 is zero threat at night. Just go about your normal business.

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This week I will introduce a friend to 7d2d, and Im worried about what he will say when he tries to hit stuff. And I have no problem doing it right, once you get used to it its easy, it just.... doesnt feel right.

Tell him to just stand and wait till the zombie does its first swing (which it will do laughably far away from the player and hit nothing) then move in and do whatever he likes to it. That's how I taught a friend who was WTF'ing about the crap melee.

 

[Ghostlight]

You paid to be part of a developing game's development process. The dev's first priority is to get things tested and get feedback and see how things are working and that is not well accomplished by giving players the means to remove the things the devs want tested.

I can actually get behind this sentiment. It's one of the reasons I mod as little as possible and complain on the forums about things I dislike instead. However I'd make 2 points in reply:

1) The devs seem unusually non-receptive to constructive criticism.

2) If you are going to try a planned change on us, PUT THE WHOLE CHANGE IN so we can test the full effect. Prime example: IN A18, zombie numbers in general got nerfed to hell outside horde night, or became far too dependant on GS, not sure which. Point is there's very few zombies in your zombie game now. When people complained, they have basically been told it's a work in progress and the change was made in preparation for some encounter system that will make it feel like zombies are everywhere. SO ADD THAT DAMN ENCOUNTER SYSTEM IN THE SAME BUILD YOU NERF ZOMBIE NUMBERS!!!!! Nerfing the zombie count without adding the complimentary system just means we have to play for months with an empty world, no challenge, laughably non-threatening nighttime, and thus boredome. What dev would approach experimental changes like that????? All this means is you are going to get the wrong feedback and create resentment and complaints when you didn't need to!

Footnote: This is assuming the encounter system actually exists and isn't just hot air to shut us up. Since there is no roadmap mentioning it....who knows?

 

[-Holo-]

there's very few zombies in your zombie game now.

I'd like to make a footnote here. In the Shotgun messiah factory, there is a spot on the 2nd floor I think, outside the toilets, where there came a whole bunch of Zombies at us when we were detected. It was glorious! (but only place we ever seen something like that too)

(even though it raises the question why the two bathrooms were packed with zombies in the first place)

 

[Ghostlight]

Define "a whole bunch"?

 

[RipClaw]

I'd like to make a footnote here. In the Shotgun messiah factory, there is a spot on the 2nd floor I think, outside the toilets, where there came a whole bunch of Zombies at us when we were detected. It was glorious! (but only place we ever seen something like that too)(even though it raises the question why the two bathrooms were packed with zombies in the first place)

Sounds like the floor in the apartment building where you have about 20-30 construction workers in the ceiling.

 

[-Holo-]

Define "a whole bunch"?

Sounds like the floor in the apartment building where you have about 20-30 construction workers in the ceiling.

I think it was about 15-ish mixed zombies that came at us, was gonna take a screenshot of the pile afterwards but the damn corpses despawn too fast that was the most fun we have had while looting so far. Day 36 I think.

But yeah, overall there is a -severe- lack of zombies up and about.

Oh, apartmentbuilding? that sounds fun. Need to see if we have that on our tiny 4K map

 

[RipClaw]

Oh, apartmentbuilding? that sounds fun. Need to see if we have that on our tiny 4K map

The building is quite common. If you have a T5 trader quest then the building is called "apartment_brick_6_flr".

The starting point is at the back of the building where the underground car park is located.

 

[-Holo-]

The building is quite common. If you have a T5 trader quest then the building is called "apartment_brick_6_flr".

I think we have about 2 or maybe 3 apartment buildings in our map , explored most of the map already (lol)

Randomgen hates me when I make maps But it's a dry run to see what needs to be fixed before we generate a larger map and play more for real (if we keep playing, it's just soo much to fix to have a enjoyable play)

 

[Psychodabble]

1) The devs seem unusually non-receptive to constructive criticism.

I find this to be very true and very troubling. It seems like the devs show up to clap back at haters in the most ridiculous, histrionic, no-fact based threads, but if a poster who really cares aboutt he game takes the time to make a carefully detailed thread with constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement it is either ignored entirely or lightly dusted with snarky, sarcastic comments that ignore the substance of the thread or whitewash the issue completely.

This may be the worst "direction of the game" issue for me. It feels like they don't care about thoughful, reasoned feedback and they are only reacting to the loudest, squeakiest, and stupidest wheels.

 

[Psychodabble]

I'd like to make a footnote here. In the Shotgun messiah factory, there is a spot on the 2nd floor I think, outside the toilets, where there came a whole bunch of Zombies at us when we were detected. It was glorious! (but only place we ever seen something like that too)(even though it raises the question why the two bathrooms were packed with zombies in the first place)

It's the first floor hallway just before the cafeteria. The bathroom ceilings are loaded with sleepers that tend to wake up early if you go too close to the wall on your way to the shooting range. You then exit the range, turn left, and there are about 15-20 zombies coming at you down the hall. If you make enough noise dealing with those, you wake the next bunch that are able to run down from the collapsed roof in the cafeteria and you can have about 30-35 zeds coming down on you at once.

 

[-Holo-]

It's the first floor hallway just before the cafeteria. The bathroom ceilings are loaded with sleepers that tend to wake up early if you go too close to the wall on your way to the shooting range. You then exit the range, turn left, and there are about 15-20 zombies coming at you down the hall. If you make enough noise dealing with those, you wake the next bunch that are able to run down from the collapsed roof in the cafeteria and you can have about 30-35 zeds coming down on you at once.

I wonder what governs the sleepers 'sleepyness'. Sometimes they wake up when a fly farts at the frontdoor, other zombies don't wake up even after bashing down the closetdoor right in front of them with a club and shining a torch in their face

The scene from Hot-Shots Part Deux where they try to get the keys comes to mind

 

[Onarr]

I find this to be very true and very troubling. It seems like the devs show up to clap back at haters in the most ridiculous, histrionic, no-fact based threads, but if a poster who really cares aboutt he game takes the time to make a carefully detailed thread with constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement it is either ignored entirely or lightly dusted with snarky, sarcastic comments that ignore the substance of the thread or whitewash the issue completely.
This may be the worst "direction of the game" issue for me. It feels like they don't care about thoughful, reasoned feedback and they are only reacting to the loudest, squeakiest, and stupidest wheels.

I am afraid you guys are a bit biased.

When you have an idea, you are usually very invested in it. When it is rejected by a dev a person will feel emotionaly hurt and start seeing the other person in negative light and will be much more critical. I suffer from this too, I posted many ideas here. I found out its about learning how to properly communicate the idea and making peace in advance that it will probably not be implemented.

I am very well familiar with development and know full well that there are many variables that need to be taken into account - development time, costs, competing features, balance etc. Most things will be rejected.

In the end, devs are people too so lets cut them some slack and lets not take it too personally. Madmole is cool even through he snaps sometimes or he does not really read the feedback thoroughly. Fataal is pretty profesional in my opinion and cannot really say anything bad about him. Gazz on the other hand can be quite condescending...most of the time.