PC Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

[ThanVanMon]

I agree on the "too much emphasis on sleepers and too little on roamers". For the rest though, I think no matter how the game went you'd never get that early itch back. You going straight through cobblestone is mostly you knowing better than back in the days when you thought wood was the early game goto, followed by iron etc.

Mining is more necessary than ever, have you even crafted anything yet ? Iron bars are crazy expensive and iron is overall needed for a TON of stuff. You need more bullets & gas than ever, so I gotta say I don't see how you just "farm the top of the ore veins" and be done with it.

As far as loot goes, you can just turn down loot abundancy. And well... not feeling rushed before the 7 days hordes... try going back to 50 min days like it used to be and tell me how much free time you have before the next horde arrives... honestly I feel pressured with 60 min days between looting, mining, visiting traders, doing quests, cooking food, building my base, planning out my progression, etc etc.

I agree some things were "lost". Mostly LBD that felt like true organic progression even though it was far from perfect; gun "assembly" through real parts; that being said the game has never been in a better state IMO, and the truth is that it will never feel as it used to because we know the game too well.

Weird cause i feel no pressure at all, there is fck all i "need" to do lol. I have to keep myself occupied to not just stand about, but nothing i really need to do. I feel nothing is needed in this version more than run about a lil bit and loot. Gas is so easy to make, food is easy to get or make. Its the base design of the game more we are discussing, no settings can set the game to the core version. If its in your taste, grats and i envy you.

- - - Updated - - -

I was also completely against the nerfing of zombies inside POIs. Looting is also a total joke now and no threat whatsoever. So let's see what we now have to work with:
a) No zombies in the world worth mentioning.

b) The same 2 wandering hordes of patheticness per day as always

c) POIs with about half as many sleepers as they used to contain making looting completely safe even in huge POIs

Getting close to being a walking simulator with every alpha.

Here's a damning fact....I use exclusively melee weapons outside horde night to conserve ammo. On the first week of play I found a baseball bat which I love. I have used it as my only melee weapon since that first week. It is now day 40, Warrior difficulty.

I haven't had to repair it yet.

How crap is that?

That doesnt sound threathening at all haha

 

[Doctor3D]

Mining is more necessary than ever, have you even crafted anything yet ? Iron bars are crazy expensive and iron is overall needed for a TON of stuff. You need more bullets & gas than ever, so I gotta say I don't see how you just "farm the top of the ore veins" and be done with it.

Well playstyles may come into factor here. Doing quests over and over will really accumulate a lot of material and loot to sell. We know most of the quest POIs like the back of our hands, so can just go straight to the usual places for the quest item and we know exactly where the pile of jackpot is in each one. Playing Co-op vs Solo may also be a factor as well. I just remember having to mine lead like crazy back in the day, but you seem to get a lot more material now when mining that just one day of mining every in-game month or so is plenty when you have all the supplemental coming in to cushion it. And, I was talking about over the entire course of the alphas - A18 is an improvement over recent Alphas in some ways - but still behind some of the older Alphas in other ways. Essentially for me - A17 was the biggest misstep since the game came out, and A18 has somewhat recovered - but it's still not on the same path as it once was.

As far as fuel - like many other craftables, gas used to be more fun and meaningful to make (at least for someone who likes crafting like me) - I used to make dedicated corn fields to make grain alcohol for gas. I always used a lot for big building projects that involved using the auger. The crafting recipes for things were just a bit deeper and with that depth was more gameplay to go with it. I think I like the higher fuel-consumption now - but i'd prefer the original recipe to make it actually impactful.

 

[beHypE]

Well playstyles may come into factor here. Doing quests over and over will really accumulate a lot of material and loot to sell. We know most of the quest POIs like the back of our hands, so can just go straight to the usual places for the quest item and we know exactly where the pile of jackpot is in each one. Playing Co-op vs Solo may also be a factor as well.

So let me get this straight. You seem to know that questing is a little OP compared to just looting houses like in the old days, those very days you reminisce so much. Yet you keep doing it over and over again, and on top of that using nerdpoling / rushing to the end loot, and you wonder why you're swimming in loot and not enjoying the game much ?

It's like those A16 haters that got LBD squashed because they kept crying about how broken it was because all they ever did was spamcraft stone axes and it felt ♥♥♥♥. Well... don't do it ? You do realise this is not a competitive game and when you play your coop game no-one gives a jack about how you and your buddy play ? So do yourself a favor and play in the old fashioned way (try a no-trader playtrough, I've done those quite a bunch and it's my favourite playstyle) by looting stuff while cleaning the POI. Maybe it will bring back some lost glory to your games.

EDIT : In other news I totally agree with the fact cities should be a storm of zombies and hard to clear. I hate the fact that when I start a new game the most efficient way to play is to find the biggest city around the trader and setting up in the middle of it with nothing but a lvl 1 primitive bow.

 

[Nyecto]

I was also completely against the nerfing of zombies inside POIs. Looting is also a total joke now and no threat whatsoever. So let's see what we now have to work with:
a) No zombies in the world worth mentioning.

b) The same 2 wandering hordes of patheticness per day as always

c) POIs with about half as many sleepers as they used to contain making looting completely safe even in huge POIs

Getting close to being a walking simulator with every alpha.

Here's a damning fact....I use exclusively melee weapons outside horde night to conserve ammo. On the first week of play I found a baseball bat which I love. I have used it as my only melee weapon since that first week. It is now day 40, Warrior difficulty.

I haven't had to repair it yet.

How crap is that?

I agree with this but you should also point the fact that you did progress as a player too. You know how to clean a POI efficiently, what to build and when, how to kill a zed without being hit, etc.

Even if I only started at A17 and it seems it was easier than previously. I died a lot for the first couple of hours; and it was the player more than the game. Now when moving around and seeing some wanderers (snow and desert mostly); either I walk by or I shoot them in the head from a safe and hidden distance -> OHKO.

Now I could use some more wanderers around during day and night time but even there, when you get 3 to 5 zeds in a close space in a POI without an easy escape path; could be a bit bloody.

Want more, could also edit some settings no ? (not sure here)

For the bat used during 40 days ? How many sleepers did you killed with it ? Like 20 total ?

 

[Doctor3D]

So let me get this straight. You seem to know that questing is a little OP compared to just looting houses like in the old days, those very days you reminisce so much. Yet you keep doing it over and over again, and on top of that using nerdpoling / rushing to the end loot, and you wonder why you're swimming in loot and not enjoying the game much ?

Well, kinda....

I like doing the quests as it's something to do in the game. I'm gonna loot anyway, so might as well do it on a quest. I'll generally do the most optimal things within the game like I would in real life with some exceptions - and one exception is your second point - I do not nerd-pole to the jackpot. But, I will sometimes just beeline through the dungeon straight towards that area and not loot much of the other rooms.

I personally can't pretend to not know where those things are. I guess I could stop doing quests. But, that's kinda the point. If something in the game is so unbalanced that I need to refrain from even using it - then I should speak up and say I don't like how it is and wish it were tweaked- instead of just not doing it and not saying anything about it. Right?..or no?

You do realise this is not a competitive game and when you play your coop game no-one gives a jack about how you and your buddy play ?

Of course I do - though I do get bragging rights against the wife or my brother on who has the least deaths or most kills - so I guess there is some competition there.

It's not about that - if you re-read what I wrote - I want the game more challenging - not less. If I were that type, I would be thankful for every gimmie the game gives you. I'm totally not ok with them. Most of the gimmies are reluctantly used as it's just the most efficient way to play.

 

[beHypE]

Yeah, you should definitely speak up and voice your opinion. But this doesn't mean you should keep on doing it. It's called self-control for own's own good. Just because spam-crafting was an issue didn't mean you had to spend your nights doing it to the point of it taking the fun away from the game. Just because there's an available debugmenu for me to spawn anything I want doesn't mean I should just use it and wonder why the game is getting stale fast. See my point ?

I don't do much questing to be honest, because I feel the exact same way you do (it's OP), except I flip the thought process around and end up with the opposite conclusion : why on earth should there be a guy in the middle of nowhere giving me EXTRA stuff on top of all the stuff I'll already loot in the POI ?

I really urge you to start a new game and not visit a trader ever (or at least don't do questing, just selling and buying), and refrain from power-looting by rushing to the final room. You'll actually feel happy about what the RNG gods throw at you and it will fill less like "let's just do quests for 4 hours and spend those 10K dukes on something I need at the trader". Good old organic, randomized progression, like in A16.

 

[Doctor3D]

I really urge you to start a new game and not visit a trader ever (or at least don't do questing, just selling and buying), and refrain from power-looting by rushing to the final room. You'll actually feel happy about what the RNG gods throw at you and it will fill less like "let's just do quests for 4 hours and spend those 10K dukes on something I need at the trader". Good old organic, randomized progression, like in A16.

I'll give it a try sometime. I'll just try to role-play and pretend that my character is in a different faction than the trader and I would be shot on site if I went in. That's not going to fix a majority of the problems I currently have with the gameplay, but yeah it'll definitely slow down my progression some and might make it more fun.

I thank you for the suggestion.

 

[ThanVanMon]

Yeah, you should definitely speak up and voice your opinion. But this doesn't mean you should keep on doing it. It's called self-control for own's own good. Just because spam-crafting was an issue didn't mean you had to spend your nights doing it to the point of it taking the fun away from the game. Just because there's an available debugmenu for me to spawn anything I want doesn't mean I should just use it and wonder why the game is getting stale fast. See my point ?
I don't do much questing to be honest, because I feel the exact same way you do (it's OP), except I flip the thought process around and end up with the opposite conclusion : why on earth should there be a guy in the middle of nowhere giving me EXTRA stuff on top of all the stuff I'll already loot in the POI ?

I really urge you to start a new game and not visit a trader ever (or at least don't do questing, just selling and buying), and refrain from power-looting by rushing to the final room. You'll actually feel happy about what the RNG gods throw at you and it will fill less like "let's just do quests for 4 hours and spend those 10K dukes on something I need at the trader". Good old organic, randomized progression, like in A16.

Personally me and my friend never done quests or used the trader actually as it makes it even easier. Thats in nothing exclusive or issue in just this game though. Many games with traders etc gets ruined like that. These games are meant to keep ppls moving around with the purpose to survive. Not questing or get steoriod rewards from traders lol. But anyways, thats up for every1 to decide and have an impact on. This is a discussion for the basedesign of the game that we can not impact.

 

[Nyecto]

I think some of you are going through the "and there I went stealth-dagger-archer again" on Skyrim.

Starting a new game with a new build in mind but going back to your old habits which are more much efficient regarding yyour playstyle because you already played the game more than 200hours and not getting that car day8 is somehow difficult to live without it for you know. (random example).

 

[Technech]

I think A18 is the best version technicaly. (not much to argue there?). But in terms of gameplay its the worst i have played. In my oppinion A15 was the best if my memory serves me right. I realy realy enjoyed the learn my doing skill system, it made everything you did have meaning.

Had to hold up for the night? you craft tools to lvl. or punch a wall to lvl or built some woodblocks to lvl. now, you just sit.

Basebuilding seem pointless now, and I think one of the reasons is there is nothing to do in your base. Before you could stay and farm and craft for days, and then you wanted a nice safe base. Now there is no need for crafting, and farming is a total joke, so no need for a base. The first tries I had on A18 I just sat around all night doing nothing, until I figured out it was actualy perfectly safe to go on looting as usual.

The last game I have started in A18 I did not take lucky looter, I wanted to go strnght and miner69 to make my own tools. apart from the slight advantage a blue stone axe is over a grey, I did not get annything from it. I had blue and purple steel tools long before I could think about craftin a sigle steel too myself. I curently have 2 purple chainsaws and 2 purple augers, and Im on day 8!

I realy try to stay away from mods for anny game I play, especialy alphas, as I want to experience the devs vision, and most mods seem to unbalance the games. (And somehow I feel its cheating). But for me to continue enjoying this game I need a mod to bring back the old style of play, or Pimps must change. (but they already got my monney long time ago, so no need on their part.)

 

[Guest]

Having one of the main features of the game be a fully destructible voxel world and then implementing "dungeons" that expect you to take a certain path to a "loot room" is such a weird design choice. I tend to follow the whole dungeon anyways, since I don't consider a combination of nerd poling and hacking away at safes to be very exciting. At least I get to fight actual zombies and collect some more XP this way. But it always feels artificial and rigid, like you're getting taken for a ride instead of using your wits and reflexes to deal with unexpected situations.

But I doubt it'll significantly change in the future. TFP bit off more than the unity engine can chew, and now we're stuck with zombies getting fed to us in neat small groups that wait for you to get up all in their face before they even start moving.

 

[Kalen]

I love A18, very polished. However, I do agree with the OP.... it's just not the same game any more. I do miss the danger of cities. I miss hunkering down in the attic of a house listening to roaming zombies outside, hoping they don't hear me and wander into my house.

The game isn't finished, so I'm holding out hope that some of that tension can be recaptured. But right now, I really wish I could play A11 with A18's features.

 

[Technech]

I love A18, very polished. However, I do agree with the OP.... it's just not the same game any more. I do miss the danger of cities. I miss hunkering down in the attic of a house listening to roaming zombies outside, hoping they don't hear me and wander into my house.
The game isn't finished, so I'm holding out hope that some of that tension can be recaptured. But right now, I really wish I could play A11 with A18's features.

Amen!

 

[beHypE]

Having one of the main features of the game be a fully destructible voxel world and then implementing "dungeons" that expect you to take a certain path to a "loot room" is such a weird design choice. I tend to follow the whole dungeon anyways, since I don't consider a combination of nerd poling and hacking away at safes to be very exciting. At least I get to fight actual zombies and collect some more XP this way. But it always feels artificial and rigid, like you're getting taken for a ride instead of using your wits and reflexes to deal with unexpected situations.
But I doubt it'll significantly change in the future. TFP bit off more than the unity engine can chew, and now we're stuck with zombies getting fed to us in neat small groups that wait for you to get up all in their face before they even start moving.

Agreed. The worst part is that the game seems to run fine during bloodmoon hordes even with 20+ zombies on the screen, yet somehow the game can't handle a handful of dangerous zeds per block in the cities' streets. The other reason I read is that's it's because MP games would reach the maxAlive entities or whatnot. Like the game is properly balanced around MP in the first place, or it couldn't be made an option... It baffles me but it is what it is.

 

[ThanVanMon]

I love A18, very polished. However, I do agree with the OP.... it's just not the same game any more. I do miss the danger of cities. I miss hunkering down in the attic of a house listening to roaming zombies outside, hoping they don't hear me and wander into my house.
The game isn't finished, so I'm holding out hope that some of that tension can be recaptured. But right now, I really wish I could play A11 with A18's features.

Agree, and thats why i made this post. Like when you argue with you loved ones, its out of love and not hatred lol.

 

[Doctor3D]

it's just not the same game any more. I do miss the danger of cities. I miss hunkering down in the attic of a house listening to roaming zombies outside, hoping they don't hear me and wander into my house.
....holding out hope that some of that tension can be recaptured. But right now, I really wish I could play A11 with A18's features.

Yep, you just said it right there. 100% agree. I've even thought the same thing before "A11 with A18 features" - i've thought that same thing in A17 as well. Would be damn near perfect, wouldn't it?

 

[Doctor3D]

Agreed. The worst part is that the game seems to run fine during bloodmoon hordes even with 20+ zombies on the screen, yet somehow the game can't handle a handful of dangerous zeds per block in the cities' streets. The other reason I read is that's it's because MP games would reach the maxAlive entities or whatnot. Like the game is properly balanced around MP in the first place, or it couldn't be made an option... It baffles me but it is what it is.

Yeah that doesn't make any sense to me either..We can adjust the blood moon quantity per player - which in theory would cause the same problem on an MP server if they set it too high.

The problem is that they only have a biome spawner now - they don't have a city, town, or outdoor POI spawner like the used to. When they made the changes to put in sleepers and changed how the random gen works - they axed all the spawners except for the one biome spawner. So any zeds you see in a town are just the result of the biome the town is in. Before, they were able to adjust the zombie spawns independently so that the wilderness had a few strays here and there, a small town would have a few more, a large town even more, and a massive wasteland city would have tons that you would have to clear.

Not having hardly any zombies in a city is a huge part of the problem in this game - you can go all around the city dismantling cars, looting all the stuff outside and it's basically all there for free.

Back in A10 - good luck going into a city on Day 1..I couldn't even make it across the wasteland to get into the city on Day 1..I'd get chased out by all the dogs and cops..

Ideally, the game should have the loot spread out based on danger - where there is a greater chance to find loot in more dangerous areas - to create a progression. A wasteland city should be the end-game where it's really hard to even get in there - and then even when you do get inside a building - the pois should be extremely dangerous full of the dead - but in there is the chance for the best most legendary loot. It gives you something to work towards and puts a barrier and gives you a goal.

 

[beHypE]

Yeah that doesn't make any sense to me either..We can adjust the blood moon quantity per player - which in theory would cause the same problem on an MP server if they set it too high.
The problem is that they only have a biome spawner now - they don't have a city, town, or outdoor POI spawner like the used to. When they made the changes to put in sleepers and changed how the random gen works - they axed all the spawners except for the one biome spawner. So any zeds you see in a town are just the result of the biome the town is in. Before, they were able to adjust the zombie spawns independently so that the wilderness had a few strays here and there, a small town would have a few more, a large town even more, and a massive wasteland city would have tons that you would have to clear.

Not having hardly any zombies in a city is a huge part of the problem in this game - you can go all around the city dismantling cars, looting all the stuff outside and it's basically all there for free.

Back in A10 - good luck going into a city on Day 1..I couldn't even make it across the wasteland to get into the city on Day 1..I'd get chased out by all the dogs and cops..

Ideally, the game should have the loot spread out based on danger - where there is a greater chance to find loot in more dangerous areas - to create a progression. A wasteland city should be the end-game where it's really hard to even get in there - and then even when you do get inside a building - the pois should be extremely dangerous full of the dead - but in there is the chance for the best most legendary loot. It gives you something to work towards and puts a barrier and gives you a goal.

Yeah I've voiced those concerns several times in the A17 and now A18 diary and will keep on bringing up the problem in the upcoming A19 dev diary. I started playing in A11 and I the one thing I remember was going to 0,0 and being greeted by cops, dogs and bees among other random zeds. And it wouldn't stop respawning, it was hell on earth and felt amazing.

Right now cities are a hub of isolated POIs and are completely OP compared to anything else in the world. What's the point of having amazing landscapes if all you ever need to see is city blocks ? I wish there was a 3-tiered progression system just like for the rest of the game. Tier 1, loot abandoned houses / isolated POIs in the wild. Tier 2, loot towns that are guarded by decent opposition both outside and inside of the houses. Tier 3, loot the big cities where the streets are hell. Each could raise your loot gamestage a bit to make up for the increase in difficulty, and the feel of progression would be awesome. I can only imagine how amazing it would feel at those specific times where you are thinking "ok, I think i'm ready for a city now", then go there and realise you aren't ready and get demolished haha.

 

[Onarr]

I think A18 is the best version technicaly. (not much to argue there?). But in terms of gameplay its the worst i have played. In my oppinion A15 was the best if my memory serves me right. I realy realy enjoyed the learn my doing skill system, it made everything you did have meaning.Had to hold up for the night? you craft tools to lvl. or punch a wall to lvl or built some woodblocks to lvl. now, you just sit.

Basebuilding seem pointless now, and I think one of the reasons is there is nothing to do in your base. Before you could stay and farm and craft for days, and then you wanted a nice safe base. Now there is no need for crafting, and farming is a total joke, so no need for a base. The first tries I had on A18 I just sat around all night doing nothing, until I figured out it was actualy perfectly safe to go on looting as usual.

The last game I have started in A18 I did not take lucky looter, I wanted to go strnght and miner69 to make my own tools. apart from the slight advantage a blue stone axe is over a grey, I did not get annything from it. I had blue and purple steel tools long before I could think about craftin a sigle steel too myself. I curently have 2 purple chainsaws and 2 purple augers, and Im on day 8!

I realy try to stay away from mods for anny game I play, especialy alphas, as I want to experience the devs vision, and most mods seem to unbalance the games. (And somehow I feel its cheating). But for me to continue enjoying this game I need a mod to bring back the old style of play, or Pimps must change. (but they already got my monney long time ago, so no need on their part.)

steel tools, purple chainsaws and augers on day 8? You sir, are a liar

 

[Doctor3D]

Yeah I've voiced those concerns several times in the A17 and now A18 diary and will keep on bringing up the problem in the upcoming A19 dev diary. I started playing in A11 and I the one thing I remember was going to 0,0 and being greeted by cops, dogs and bees among other random zeds. And it wouldn't stop respawning, it was hell on earth and felt amazing.
Right now cities are a hub of isolated POIs and are completely OP compared to anything else in the world. What's the point of having amazing landscapes if all you ever need to see is city blocks ? I wish there was a 3-tiered progression system just like for the rest of the game. Tier 1, loot abandoned houses / isolated POIs in the wild. Tier 2, loot towns that are guarded by decent opposition both outside and inside of the houses. Tier 3, loot the big cities where the streets are hell. Each could raise your loot gamestage a bit to make up for the increase in difficulty, and the feel of progression would be awesome. I can only imagine how amazing it would feel at those specific times where you are thinking "ok, I think i'm ready for a city now", then go there and realise you aren't ready and get demolished haha.

I'm right with you. I used to build up gear and building material and then go and try to build bases in the wasteland and see how long I could hold out, because like you said - they just kept spawning no matter what you did. It was extremely tense and fun to play like that sometimes. You couldn't even open a drawer without hearing a horde of zombies start hissing and sensing you. Running across the wasteland with any meat on you was like taping a piece of raw steak on your ass and going through a lion den..

And as much as I like A10\A11 - when I do go back to play them - I definitely miss a LOT of the things they've added since then. So that's testament to the fact that there have been many improvements..so many..but it's missing that tension..and the best way I can personally describe it is the game feels more 'gamey' than it used to. It's less open-ended, more confined, more cookie-cutter and there's lots of redundancies and unnecessary streamlining that as Kalen said - makes you want to combine the best of the eras of development. That alpha-era with some of these modern features and toys would be my dream game. It's a pipe-dream though - because some of the things I liked about A10 - someone else wouldn't and was glad it was changed..and something I hated about A18 - someone loved - there'd be no conceivable way that even that would make every person content. Hell, some think A18 is the best thing ever...some even liked A17. But, I would think at the very least - the way the outdoor zombie spawns were set up in A10 is at least something that the majority could agree on - and that should be a goal for TFP - to get that tension back. To make some areas very dangerous and put incentives to work your way towards there.