PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Matt115]

Your opinion is not objective reality, as is the same with your opinion on what 7DTD's genre is and what it parodies.

Personally I'm not expecting something perfectly unique when it comes to the armor designs, all that really matters is that the characters won't look like they're from a PS2 game anymore.

I expect from to have sense not unique. I'm tired with this trend "cool only matter !!!1!" - cod is just mess with anime characters. hell let lose had a crisis for a while. B4B and steam punk skins. 

You know? Bordelands is cartoon but manage to have good artstyle. 

Dead rising ? semi serious yet manage to have suitable style ( yet DR4 broke it)

DL2 - at first it was good. Now from post apo we have.... cyberpunk.

So yep this is bad change

 

[hiemfire]

But Jost Amman is right, it's a taste thing.

So just because YOU don't like it, it should be removed. The fact that they made the time to make this armor proves that there are people liking this.

It's a caricature of a back handed slanderous insult normally directed at victims of severe physical violence who're perceived as having abnormal cognitive functions and social skills. Taken in context with the theme of the other outfits it is also jarringly inconsistent.

 

[Arma Rex]

I expect from to have sense not unique. I'm tired with this trend "cool only matter !!!1!" - cod is just mess with anime characters. hell let lose had a crisis for a while. B4B and steam punk skins. 

You know? Bordelands is cartoon but manage to have good artstyle. 

Dead rising ? semi serious yet manage to have suitable style ( yet DR4 broke it)

DL2 - at first it was good. Now from post apo we have.... cyberpunk.

So yep this is bad change

That's great. It's still your opinion, and not fact. I'll let the developers make the creative decisions and judge from there. It may be good. It may be bad. Not every game needs to be completely unique in every manner. I mean, we're talking about a zombie survival game, something that's been done to death. 7DTD brings something new to the table by incorporating elements of tower defense, voxel sandbox, and RPG elements. As far as unique flair goes, the game has quite a lot of it already.

 

[FramFramson]

Opinions are one thing, but internal consistency is another. Sometimes it feels like the game just cannot decide if it's 7 Days After or Mad Max.

A lot of this has to do with the deliberate ambiguity of how long ago the apocalypse took place (and how bad was it - we know some areas are safe enough that they send airdrops to affected zones, and that those airdrops never stop). Shops have been looted and some buildings destroyed but nothing's picked clean and most buildings are largely intact. There's even still gas in gas pumps and cars and you can still find unrotted produce once in a while!

Some of the Mad Max-y outfits can work in a 7 Days After-type situation, but some of them are a stretch. Building weird Mad Max cars feels bizarre when the streets are littered with innumerable regular cars, many of which are almost entirely intact (incidentally, this is why I'm really hoping we see Vehicle Madness resurrected soon. Honestly the vanilla vehicle system should already involve restoring ordinary wrecks as it is).

Ultimately it seems like the devs themselves never really decided on a time period, which means different teams or individuals are going for whatever look they're interested in without any of it necessarily being consistent within the game world.

EDIT: My personal take based on the environment is that we're looking at anywhere from a couple months to MAYBE a couple years - no more than 4 or 5. There's room for weird stuff in a world like that, but there should still be more "normal" than "weird" in a situation like that, in the same sense that among the buildings and towns and cars and streets, there's far more "normal" than there is "weird". Having goofy outfits is fine as long as there's still normal clothes - plain pants, boots, shirts, etc. - too.

 

[Roland]

I always felt like there were two apocalypses. There was the initial apocalypse when the bombs went off to contain the virus and then society slowly came back but as a caricature of what it was. This was the era of the weird and off-kilter named businesses that exist and can be looted rather than being completely bombed out shells. Then the Duke arrived and subjugated the area causing a second fall of civilization.

Now there are only the trader compounds and all the businesses that never existed in the old world but that developed in the post-apocalyptic world are abandoned and full of zombies thanks to the Duke's tyranny. The second fall was not as catastrophic as the first since populations were already depleted beyond what they had been. Hence, no huge piles of dead bodies and why some aspects of the world seem a decade or more old while others seem a lot fresher and more recently gone.

 

[meilodasreh]

I can understand that some people dislike this or that detail about the player models, or maybe even the whole concept when they look them.

But I would assume most of the seemingly prominent details are just because the models are standing displayed in the picture.

In the end when everybody is moving around you wouldn't even notice most of that stuff.

The new models do achieve that players in a group are easily distinguishable at first glance, that's a nice feature.

And I think that's well done, even if some things seem to be too exaggerated to reach the effect.

 

[Jost Amman]

If we started counting inconsistencies, we would never end.

Example: does anyone notice that phones are missing in houses and phone booths are missing on the roads?

I mean... there are Flat Screens for crying out loud! But no phones!

I've always said that I see indie game developing as part technical, part artistic. Does anyone know the impressionism movement?

Well, in this game I personally apply the same approach. I don't look at the minute details or try to make sense of everything.

I just get an impression of what the world theme is, and go with it.

Basically, I'm the polar opposite of @Matt115 who's always analyzing things and details to rationalize everything.  

Of course, there should be a line in the sand that the devs should never cross, or the game will become as (e.g.) Postal.

 

[Old Crow]

What happened to all the knives on the assassin armour that was the best part 

They're still there, the wasteland assassin set isn't in that picture.

 

[zztong]

Example: does anyone notice that phones are missing in houses and phone booths are missing on the roads?

Yes. Well I also notice they're missing in real life. If I want to see an office phone I have to go to our surplus department. (My computer is the telephone now.) They've still got a box of 50 or so. I haven't seen a phone booth in maybe as many as 10 years. (Thanks to cellphones.)

 

[meganoth]

Opinions are one thing, but internal consistency is another. Sometimes it feels like the game just cannot decide if it's 7 Days After or Mad Max.

A lot of this has to do with the deliberate ambiguity of how long ago the apocalypse took place (and how bad was it - we know some areas are safe enough that they send airdrops to affected zones, and that those airdrops never stop). Shops have been looted and some buildings destroyed but nothing's picked clean and most buildings are largely intact. There's even still gas in gas pumps and cars and you can still find unrotted produce once in a while!

Some of the Mad Max-y outfits can work in a 7 Days After-type situation, but some of them are a stretch. Building weird Mad Max cars feels bizarre when the streets are littered with innumerable regular cars, many of which are almost entirely intact (incidentally, this is why I'm really hoping we see Vehicle Madness resurrected soon. Honestly the vanilla vehicle system should already involve restoring ordinary wrecks as it is).

Ultimately it seems like the devs themselves never really decided on a time period, which means different teams or individuals are going for whatever look they're interested in without any of it necessarily being consistent within the game world.

EDIT: My personal take based on the environment is that we're looking at anywhere from a couple months to MAYBE a couple years - no more than 4 or 5. There's room for weird stuff in a world like that, but there should still be more "normal" than "weird" in a situation like that, in the same sense that among the buildings and towns and cars and streets, there's far more "normal" than there is "weird". Having goofy outfits is fine as long as there's still normal clothes - plain pants, boots, shirts, etc. - too.

There are hundreds of games where most or all of the buildings are impenetrable blocks you can't step into. Those buildings are effectively decoration just like the cars in 7D2D. There are racing games where you can't even leave your car or leave the racing track. All you see around is decoration.

So yes, the cars are just there in 7D2D as scrap heaps and probably they will never move in vanilla and at the same time this will never be explained.

Similarily you will never brew a coffee in any of the coffee machines standing around or turn on any of the computers. At some level of detail the simulation ends and the "game" with its artifical rules starts.

 

[spud42]

even with VOIP there are still recognisable phones on desks . or even headsets for call centers and helpdesks. 

there are no mobile phones  lying around either even as props and unusable for scrapping. 

of course there are inconsistancies but this is a GAME . its not an appocolypse simulator. chill out go have a frothy with Jawoodle on his latest balcony watch the sun set and get ready for the next hoard..... im out of ammo and dont have time to notice most of this stuff in game....

 

[Adam the Waster]

even with VOIP there are still recognisable phones on desks . or even headsets for call centers and helpdesks. 

there are no mobile phones  lying around either even as props and unusable for scrapping. 

of course there are inconsistancies but this is a GAME . its not an appocolypse simulator. chill out go have a frothy with Jawoodle on his latest balcony watch the sun set and get ready for the next hoard..... im out of ammo and dont have time to notice most of this stuff in game....

If I find spare electronics I like to think it's a phone I break apart 

*Cough* cough* alpha 22 dev diary

If not, then I will 

The Alpha 22 unofficial dev diary 

 

[Syphon583]

It's objective bad design.

You're objectively wrong here, Matt. You need to realize that your personal taste and thoughts on the art direction of this game do not determine the objective quality of any asset that is created by the team. Art assets and art direction are completely subjective. How they function in the game can be objective, and there are many discussions on this forum that prove this very point.

You are free to not like something. That's fine. However, please stop insisting that because you or anyone else do not like the look of a particular thing, it means it's bad for everyone else. It's not.

 

[Matt115]

That's great. It's still your opinion, and not fact. I'll let the developers make the creative decisions and judge from there. It may be good. It may be bad. Not every game needs to be completely unique in every manner. I mean, we're talking about a zombie survival game, something that's been done to death. 7DTD brings something new to the table by incorporating elements of tower defense, voxel sandbox, and RPG elements. As far as unique flair goes, the game has quite a lot of it already.

Do I talk about gameplay or artstyle? Artstyle only. which is bad

Opinions are one thing, but internal consistency is another. Sometimes it feels like the game just cannot decide if it's 7 Days After or Mad Max.

A lot of this has to do with the deliberate ambiguity of how long ago the apocalypse took place (and how bad was it - we know some areas are safe enough that they send airdrops to affected zones, and that those airdrops never stop). Shops have been looted and some buildings destroyed but nothing's picked clean and most buildings are largely intact. There's even still gas in gas pumps and cars and you can still find unrotted produce once in a while!

Some of the Mad Max-y outfits can work in a 7 Days After-type situation, but some of them are a stretch. Building weird Mad Max cars feels bizarre when the streets are littered with innumerable regular cars, many of which are almost entirely intact (incidentally, this is why I'm really hoping we see Vehicle Madness resurrected soon. Honestly the vanilla vehicle system should already involve restoring ordinary wrecks as it is).

Ultimately it seems like the devs themselves never really decided on a time period, which means different teams or individuals are going for whatever look they're interested in without any of it necessarily being consistent within the game world.

EDIT: My personal take based on the environment is that we're looking at anywhere from a couple months to MAYBE a couple years - no more than 4 or 5. There's room for weird stuff in a world like that, but there should still be more "normal" than "weird" in a situation like that, in the same sense that among the buildings and towns and cars and streets, there's far more "normal" than there is "weird". Having goofy outfits is fine as long as there's still normal clothes - plain pants, boots, shirts, etc. - too.

Exactly it's not consistent. like Vanguard.

I always felt like there were two apocalypses. There was the initial apocalypse when the bombs went off to contain the virus and then society slowly came back but as a caricature of what it was. This was the era of the weird and off-kilter named businesses that exist and can be looted rather than being completely bombed out shells. Then the Duke arrived and subjugated the area causing a second fall of civilization.

Now there are only the trader compounds and all the businesses that never existed in the old world but that developed in the post-apocalyptic world are abandoned and full of zombies thanks to the Duke's tyranny. The second fall was not as catastrophic as the first since populations were already depleted beyond what they had been. Hence, no huge piles of dead bodies and why some aspects of the world seem a decade or more old while others seem a lot fresher and more recently gone.

Still then not solve electisity and air drops, cars in good conditions and much more. Thus suggest that happend not such long before start of game - 1 or 2. So wearing clothes like in Mad Max doesn't have sense.  

If we started counting inconsistencies, we would never end.

Example: does anyone notice that phones are missing in houses and phone booths are missing on the roads?

I mean... there are Flat Screens for crying out loud! But no phones!

I've always said that I see indie game developing as part technical, part artistic. Does anyone know the impressionism movement?

Well, in this game I personally apply the same approach. I don't look at the minute details or try to make sense of everything.

I just get an impression of what the world theme is, and go with it.

Basically, I'm the polar opposite of @Matt115 who's always analyzing things and details to rationalize everything.  

Of course, there should be a line in the sand that the devs should never cross, or the game will become as (e.g.) Postal.

No phones is diffrent thing. I will try to explain it

In CoD Vanguard you can spot ahistorical planes in background. Ok you will see it few second... so it's mistake but i can be forgive as realy hard to detect detail. Then you see used STG 44 by imperial soldiers in 1940. 

Cod WaW had many mistakes about WW2 but it was details. but most stuff was... logical enogh to be reliable why Vanguard is just bad Fanfic.

7DTD evolved from style like WaW into Vanguard. 

So problem is it's not like impressionism but like... reneissance paiting where painters were putting totaly anachronistic buldings, armors, clothes, weapons etc.

You're objectively wrong here, Matt. You need to realize that your personal taste and thoughts on the art direction of this game do not determine the objective quality of any asset that is created by the team. Art assets and art direction are completely subjective. How they function in the game can be objective, and there are many discussions on this forum that prove this very point.

You are free to not like something. That's fine. However, please stop insisting that because you or anyone else do not like the look of a particular thing, it means it's bad for everyone else. It's not.

< sign> no.  Some things are proper or not. Is Vanguard proper? nope, it's terrible mistake and many agree about that. Is WaW reliable? yeah. 

I can do make large analise why 7DTD is inconsistent as hell if you want

 

[jorbascrumps]

snip

Please stop this crusade. People can agree with your opinion but that does not make it fact. The facts are that TFP is developing this game and they have decided on the art direction for it. You're allowed to voice your opinion that you dislike it but stop claiming it is an objective fact.

Also for the love of God please stop comparing 7 Days to COD.

 

[Arma Rex]

2 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Do I talk about gameplay or artstyle? Artstyle only. which is bad

Exactly it's not consistent. like Vanguard.

Still then not solve electisity and air drops, cars in good conditions and much more. Thus suggest that happend not such long before start of game - 1 or 2. So wearing clothes like in Mad Max doesn't have sense.  

No phones is diffrent thing. I will try to explain it

In CoD Vanguard you can spot ahistorical planes in background. Ok you will see it few second... so it's mistake but i can be forgive as realy hard to detect detail. Then you see used STG 44 by imperial soldiers in 1940. 

Cod WaW had many mistakes about WW2 but it was details. but most stuff was... logical enogh to be reliable why Vanguard is just bad Fanfic.

7DTD evolved from style like WaW into Vanguard. 

So problem is it's not like impressionism but like... reneissance paiting where painters were putting totaly anachronistic buldings, armors, clothes, weapons etc.

< sign> no.  Some things are proper or not. Is Vanguard proper? nope, it's terrible mistake and many agree about that. Is WaW reliable? yeah. 

I can do make large analise why 7DTD is inconsistent as hell if you want

You may be speaking directly about the art style, but gameplay is also a part of it. You believe every aspect of the game must be unique, whereas I am stating that the game has plenty of unique features to it. The current art style looks fine, and you ought to withhold judgement until after A22 is released in regards to the armor.

Additionally, you also keep comparing 7DTD to other games, which often bear little relevance to the discussion at hand. A WW2 game set in a historical period is not the same as a game set in the distant future. If you want to critique the art style, it'd be a lot easier for others to follow if you use more grounded comparisons.

 

[HB_H4wk]

The Fun Pimps don't want players with good taste... they want players that taste good. Or so the zombies say

 

[Matt115]

Please stop this crusade. People can agree with your opinion but that does not make it fact. The facts are that TFP is developing this game and they have decided on the art direction for it. You're allowed to voice your opinion that you dislike it but stop claiming it is an objective fact.

Also for the love of God please stop comparing 7 Days to COD.

Not cod? ok. wait a sec : 

1.  

where i said every aspect must be unique ? 

Okay - i was give WW2 game as example because.... it's visible how good artyle change into bad. This same why People are complaining about Dying light 2 style compare to DL1. 

I give examples of games where artstyle evolved in bad way : Fear 1 and fear 3 , age of empire 3 and 4 , dead rising and dead rising 4 etc.

 

[meilodasreh]

Also I would guess if they'd put the already existing player outfits on display, standing next to each other like the new ones,

one would find lots of inconsistencies, ugly details, bad design elements and whatsoever...just nobody complained about those in the past,

because one never even realized, or was just already used to them.

 

[Adam the Waster]

I know for a fact JACK if the Apocalypse happens.  THE SPLIT SECOND IT DOES, ima put on them black leather and str-

Oops I meant 

Ima start wearing Apocalypse armor! Hell maybe in the future this is a fashion trend.

Hell maybe I'm going to wear it now! Don't tell me what to do. All I hope is! Please for the great lord prime himself.  Let us have the overlord armor and wear it Amen