PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Riamus]

Are you sure it is crap handling and not just a shred of realism in the driving part? I.e. that doing a sudden sharp curve while driving fast destabilizes your vehicle. The vehicles can't topple so all they do when you oversteer is getting into an oscillation where in reality they would topple or crash.

I am just asking, I don't have an opinion yet. I sometimes get into this oscillation too but assumed this is because I was making a driving mistake since it always seems to happen when I try to avoid an obstacle in the last millisecond.

Well, I think that it would be better if you only had the spin out and not the back and forth slides that can last for a long ways and no tilting side to side repeatedly.  At least the spin out feels like it can make sense even though a 180 degree spin out isn't going to happen on a motorcycle or minibike.  But the repeated side to side slides that can repeat for 6-8 times if you don't stop are just annoying.  A slight change in terrain can cause this if you are making even a minor turn.  You can tap right or left and end up tilting back and for 3-6 times even though you're only turning maybe 5-10 degrees, which shouldn't have any affect on your driving.  It might be intended as an alternative to a crash but in the end it just looks really bad and, in my opinion, doesn't provide any real value to the game.  The spin out is fine even if I don't like that can trigger from very minor turns.  But the others just look bad and make driving annoying.  I already won't use the 4x4 anymore because of the damage it takes, so I can't even avoid the motorcycle for the less unstable driving of the 4x4.

 

[FramFramson]

Are you sure it is crap handling and not just a shred of realism in the driving part? I.e. that doing a sudden sharp curve while driving fast destabilizes your vehicle. The vehicles can't topple so all they do when you oversteer is getting into an oscillation where in reality they would topple or crash.

I am just asking, I don't have an opinion yet. I sometimes get into this oscillation too but assumed this is because I was making a driving mistake since it always seems to happen when I try to avoid an obstacle in the last millisecond.

I do ride a motorbike IRL and the vanilla animations are just waaaay beyond goofy. It's like your bike is a weeble-wobble taped to the ground during those moments. IRL if you wobbled that much you'd go flying and end up in pieces, but at the same time, you'd never wobble that much on a turn unless you were doing something very, very wrong (like physically jacking the handlebars around).

IMO they just need to tone down the rubberbanding animations so it's not so severe. The speeds we travel in game are fairly slow by IRL standards after all!

 

[meganoth]

IRL if you wobbled that much you'd go flying

But that's the thing, the game has no motorcycle crashing and you flying off animation (or does it? At least it surely isn't implemented yet). So you are glued to the motorcycle no matter what you do and the wobbling is maybe the equivalent of you getting thrown off. The important question then would be whether you get "thrown off" too easy. Or if it would be more fun to really be thrown off instead of wobbling?

 

[Riamus]

Based on riding dirt bikes, I think the wobble and sliding back and forth happen far too easily even if you were to equate that to falling off.  Granted, the motorcycle isn't exactly meant for off-road based on its looks, but it is still not going to handle that poorly in real life driving over the terrain we drive over.  I've had it go into back and forth sliding on almost level ground just because there is a very slight change in elevation when I'm turning slightly.  That wouldn't happen and wouldn't cause a crash if you are even somewhat skilled at riding.

If it was made to occur only when making excessive changes in directions, then I wouldn't really mind even if it is unrealistic.  But right now it just happens far too easily over the terrain we have from nothing more than tapping the turn keys.  After all, even if you don't get the excessive wobbling back and forth that sometimes happens, even the slightest turn will cause you to lean one way and then the other, one time each, every time.  Even on asphalt.

Watch someone on a motorcycle when they turn in real life.  They may lean into a turn, but they'll come back to vertical and not lean the other way after.  And the game isn't even leaning into turns as that wobble occurs after you straighten out.

 

[Survager]

What is "Player Inventory Preference System"?

 

[Riamus]

What is "Player Inventory Preference System"?

I was going to ask that as well.  I'm hoping it means we can lock inventory spots so they don't move when moving all items from one container to another.

 

[Old Crow]

I was going to ask that as well.  I'm hoping it means we can lock inventory spots so they don't move when moving all items from one container to another.

I downloaded the experimental and couldn't find any settings for this feature. It seems it may have been added to the patch notes, but wasn't implemented.

 

[beerfly]

I downloaded the experimental and couldn't find any settings for this feature. It seems it may have been added to the patch notes, but wasn't implemented.

Same here. Either that or it is different thing of what we think it is. 

Would be great addition if it is what we think.

 

[Old Crow]

Same here. Either that or it is different thing of what we think it is. 

Would be great addition if it is what we think.

Unfortunately after digging through settings and the game itself while playing, I found nothing that has anything to do with inventory preferences. Hopefully they'll address it.

 

[FramFramson]

But that's the thing, the game has no motorcycle crashing and you flying off animation (or does it? At least it surely isn't implemented yet). So you are glued to the motorcycle no matter what you do and the wobbling is maybe the equivalent of you getting thrown off. The important question then would be whether you get "thrown off" too easy. Or if it would be more fun to really be thrown off instead of wobbling?

I mean we do actually have vehicle crashing, we just don't have it so that you go flying out of or off the vehicle when it crashes. But the vehicle can be destroyed, can fly through the air and crash with enough of a ramp/hole/whatever, and the player can be killed or hurt on impact. It can also spin out.

The wobbling doesn't equal you being thrown off because you, uh, don't get thrown off (but also it's an almost entirely visual effect). Which kind of gets at the problem - the game is displaying data which implies you're losing control of your vehicle, when in fact you're not. It's not just a "looks goofy" problem, it's a legitimate functional issue, at least for a newer player.

 

[meganoth]

I mean we do actually have vehicle crashing, we just don't have it so that you go flying out of or off the vehicle when it crashes. But the vehicle can be destroyed, can fly through the air and crash with enough of a ramp/hole/whatever, and the player can be killed or hurt on impact. It can also spin out.

I don't see vehicles crashing. I see the motorbike toppling over but the only result is that the bike is pointed into a random location but you sitting perfectly on it without getting any damage. There is nothing there that would look like you simply losing control and getting thrown off (i.e. what you would see in motorbike races when the driver loses control).

But you made a good point here, "losing control" would be the better term to describe the intended cause instead of "crashing".

The wobbling doesn't equal you being thrown off because you, uh, don't get thrown off (but also it's an almost entirely visual effect). Which kind of gets at the problem - the game is displaying data which implies you're losing control of your vehicle, when in fact you're not.

You have to explain that. You ARE losing control of the vehicle when the wobbling starts, the only thing that is missing is a chance to get thrown off.

ot just a "looks goofy" problem, it's a legitimate functional issue, at least for a newer player.

I don't see new players complaining. I see a few veterans complaining.

 

[Matt115]

I don't see new players complaining. I see a few veterans complaining.

Ehh simple - because they don't know how it should works like. I give example : 

You are new guy who started playing in total war. For you everything is fine. But for person who played 265 hours many things is unfinshed, working bad or just unfair. Did you know that in Shogun 2 Ai often spawn free units for itself? So for new player it's not problem because... this person don't know about it.

So -  Veterans opinions mean much much more that new players

 

[meganoth]

Ehh simple - because they don't know how it should works like.

So it seems to work for them. Then why does FramFramson claim it would be an issue especially for them?

You are new guy who started playing in total war. For you everything is fine. But for person who played 265 hours many things is unfinshed, working bad or just unfair. Did you know that in Shogun 2 Ai often spawn free units for itself? So for new player it's not problem because... this person don't know about it.

Unfair? Sorry, that is silly. In many strategy games the AI is so weak that it needs additional units to make the game challenging and fun. A new player probably gives a rats ass about fairness when he would be bored to death by a fair game.

A veteran player can complain about the weak AI and the hokey way of correcting it because he notices it and it actually decreases his fun exactly because he sees the trick being done, but that is a complaint strictly about his own enjoyment of the game, not about new players not having fun.

For once I'll give an example to you: Someone newly watching a magician do a magic trick will have fun because he doesn't see the trick. A veteran of magician shows (lets say another magician) who already knows most tricks will more likely be bored because he knows what is done and the awe is gone.

 

[Blake_]

Thank you TFP for a21.2 It fixes a few of the most game breaking bugs while also adding death penalty. Finally, I can horribly die while triggering a trap at the end of a POI! And with consequences too! 

 

[mstdv inc]

You're dying (fainting). You wake up in one of Dr. Jen's tents. She says that someone from her group found you unconscious and brought you here. You feel better now.
It's time to pay. 25,000 dukes or 5 quests and we're even. Good motivation not to die anymore.
 

I like the new function of punishment for death, but still, between the option with the preservation of all debuffs and the complete reset of the character, there is not enough option with a fine in dukes or with a constant decrease in the points of characteristics / the number of books read. (Amnesia)

 

[meilodasreh]

Good motivation not to die anymore.

Actually never heard of a better motivation to die all the time.

Waking up in Jen's bed and then have to serve her cause I'm in her debt.

 

[FramFramson]

So it seems to work for them. Then why does FramFramson claim it would be an issue especially for them?

Unfair? Sorry, that is silly. In many strategy games the AI is so weak that it needs additional units to make the game challenging and fun. A new player probably gives a rats ass about fairness when he would be bored to death by a fair game.

A veteran player can complain about the weak AI and the hokey way of correcting it because he notices it and it actually decreases his fun exactly because he sees the trick being done, but that is a complaint strictly about his own enjoyment of the game, not about new players not having fun.

For once I'll give an example to you: Someone newly watching a magician do a magic trick will have fun because he doesn't see the trick. A veteran of magician shows (lets say another magician) who already knows most tricks will more likely be bored because he knows what is done and the awe is gone.

How would a new player even know to come on here and ask about it?

Just because they're not on here complaining about it, doesn't mean they're not making assumptions about the way the vehicle handles based on the animations, which should, in theory, be representative of motion.

But it's not. The wobble as we see it is not only annoying, it's not physically possible IRL (without crashing). The game is providing unrepresentative feedback in this case, and while some silliness can be explained away as quirks of game physics, the motorbike wobble is so blatant as to be out of scale with even the rest of the games liberties with physics. It's also just... unnecessary.

It's a visible graphical problem caused by incorrect application of unity physics to the motorbike models in-game. We don't have to pretend this bug is some kind of intended feature.

 

[Matt115]

So it seems to work for them. Then why does FramFramson claim it would be an issue especially for them?

Again total war as example : Karl Franz in warhammer are suggested as easy and suggested faction for new players which is.... totaly wrong and big mistake. Yet new players can't know about this ( if they didn't watch vidoes about it) so thing they are bad players which is false, About this ofc know veterans so they should be treat as feedback main

Unfair? Sorry, that is silly. In many strategy games the AI is so weak that it needs additional units to make the game challenging and fun. A new player probably gives a rats ass about fairness when he would be bored to death by a fair game.

A veteran player can complain about the weak AI and the hokey way of correcting it because he notices it and it actually decreases his fun exactly because he sees the trick being done, but that is a complaint strictly about his own enjoyment of the game, not about new players not having fun.

For once I'll give an example to you: Someone newly watching a magician do a magic trick will have fun because he doesn't see the trick. A veteran of magician shows (lets say another magician) who already knows most tricks will more likely be bored because he knows what is done and the awe is gone.

Problem is that total wars now are... mostly unfished games. it's just my opinion. Problem is when you have to use exploits because this is only way.

In shogun 2 it's pretty visible:  AI faction can have one region without economy only military buildings and... have stack of elite army  why? not upcome costs for AI. and more and more. So this not like magical trick but like this  : 

In theory rules are simple but there is small detail which doesn't allow you won - gear teeth are put in why that price in exactly in halve or teeth so you can't block in right position - so you will always will lose. 

With modern total war games on higer difficulty is similiar and only you can won if you know how AI, etc. works which you shoudn't know if you played fair

 

[Adam the Waster]

You're dying (fainting). You wake up in one of Dr. Jen's tents. She says that someone from her group found you unconscious and brought you here. You feel better now.
It's time to pay. 25,000 dukes or 5 quests and we're even. Good motivation not to die anymore.
 

I like the new function of punishment for death, but still, between the option with the preservation of all debuffs and the complete reset of the character, there is not enough option with a fine in dukes or with a constant decrease in the points of characteristics / the number of books read. (Amnesia)

A temporary stat plenty made me REALLY not want to die on alpha 17

 

[Roland]

I downloaded the experimental and couldn't find any settings for this feature. It seems it may have been added to the patch notes, but wasn't implemented.

Same here. Either that or it is different thing of what we think it is. 

Would be great addition if it is what we think.

Unfortunately after digging through settings and the game itself while playing, I found nothing that has anything to do with inventory preferences. Hopefully they'll address it.

It is simply that when you die and then return to pick up your backpack everything goes back to the same slots they were in including your tool belt. The wording on that patch note was unfortunate...