PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[meganoth]

Actually, I didn't made up anything about that. I do remember now that I get it from the Fun Pimps interview with Guns, Nerds and Steel where they said that they had hired a team of external dev to work on the console version. So those are probably not counted into their staff.

And about that again:

You might not remember what was posted by TFP about the console version dilemna, nearly 4 years ago, on this very same website.

In fact, it's really worth reading again as they were making some very interesting points about how much investment this project to port the game on console would cost them while they didn't have, at this point, neither the ressources nor expertise to do it:

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"The Fun Pimps are a PC game developer and publisher and we do not have the resources or expertise to do ports/updates to the console, so we licensed the console publishing rights to Telltale Games who hired Iron Galaxy who have done the ports with minimal TFP assistance.

We all had a great thing going a full Alpha 16 port was in the works, that is, until Telltale’s insolvency broke the cadence of builds, hurt our sales, reputation and created this unfortunate situation. Instead of investing in a new update, TFP spent a very large sum of money regaining the rights back in an auction, in addition to ongoing legal and auditing fees…

Now that we are the console publisher, as an operational business and out of obligation to our investors and our hard working team (who need to provide for their families too) we have to evaluate the expense and risk of porting any future versions of the game to consoles relative to the income it could generate. Full console ports cost into the millions of dollars, not to mention the restrictions the platform holders have on not breaking saved games which would be inevitable given our current framework and the technical challenges associated with porting a resource intensive game like 7 Days to consoles.

With Sony and Microsoft, no matter how small, any update has to go through a rigorous testing/submission process.

As you can see, this is not an easy problem to solve. We are exploring all options that would eventually deliver a new version of 7 Days to consoles but this would likely happen after the PC version has gone gold and could end up being an entirely new product or on the next console.

Please understand: Telltale going under has put the console version of 7 Days in this situation. TFP are just trying to lookout for the future of our company and the game we care about…"

Good catch with the "out of obligation to our investors". That does indicate that they had investors then already. Mentioning them in this way seems to indicate they needed investors specifically to bid successfully on the auction and promised them a cut from whatever the console release will make in return (hence the investors interest in a console release).

But again, this didn't prompt TFP to any desperate measures, this happened years ago and TFP has not made haste like a developer in cash trouble surely would. For example Faatal is still working on PC features, the weather, vehicle features, water physics overhaul, ... instead of being fully occupied with getting the console out or finishing the PC game fast to prepare for earlier console release or the next income source like DLCs or microtransactions.

 

[Matt115]

You might have standards, the game industry does not . Especially indy games have a lot of leeway anyway, with graphics and anything, but even big AAA publishers bring out games sometimes that are only graphically at "full release" standard.

Indie studio and AA companies have problems with that too xd just it's much quieter about that - well if street kid slip and fall in Laos nobody care but when well known movie star slip and fall then everyone talk about it.

Lets say they released A16 after 5 months of polishing/fixing bugs. Then started Early Access for the follow up game 7d3d with what now is A17, which felt as the biggest break of continuity for many players (aka just like a new game) and continued. All the players still playing the game now would have followed and bought into the new EA, at a minimum to check out the new stuff which you call "re-doing things".

Sorry, I find that "re-doing" argument silly. While they have been experimenting with their progression all the time (the "re-doing"), a lot of new features appeared as well. But they never promised to **increase** content (for example new workstations, new weapons, new recipes) beyond what there is now and it seems they have no intention to. Understandable because they might think about adding that stuff into 7D2D 2 or an expansion. I suspect what TFP is doing is the same thing that Blizzard did (without the public watching) when it still had standards to bring out the "perfect" game, i.e. experimenting until every part of the game feels right for them. Naturally whatever is perfect for them is not perfect for everyone else.

Lack of increase content is the biggest problem. Song of conquest and Smallland survive the wilds is good example how EA should looks like : release game then roadmap what exactly will be in game.  Well that's kinda a point of that - increase things that you can do/get in game. until 7dtd 2 will pass 10 years. which is a lot. c'man people live usualy 70 years not 700. 

About Blizzard - blizzard was rich company during this period so they could do such thing + they were keeping WoW alive so it  was a lot. while TFP making only 7dtd. That's a diffrent.

Good catch with the "out of obligation to our investors". That does indicate that they had investors then already. Mentioning them in this way seems to indicate they needed investors specifically to bid successfully on the auction and promised them a cut from whatever the console release will make in return (hence the investors interest in a console release).

But again, this didn't prompt TFP to any desperate measures, this happened years ago and TFP has not made haste like a developer in cash trouble surely would. For example Faatal is still working on PC features, the weather, vehicle features, water physics overhaul, ... instead of being fully occupied with getting the console out or finishing the PC game fast to prepare for earlier console release or the next income source like DLCs or microtransactions.

I think it would be much better for us if they already focus on DLC - because we would get more content.  Most added things during A21 is : rebalance ( not new content), rework ( again no new content - water, LBL), visual overhaul ( which is great yet... kinds 7dtd have problem with general art direction which is high problem unfortunatly). So - it woud be paid... yet it had to be something - new weapons, enemies, lore, new vehicles etc.. - meat and potatoes

 

[JaxTeller718]

Really?  Why would protect affect what quests show up?  That seems like a bad design.

I can 100 percent tell you that with modding it HAS broken quests. At one point all we got was buried supplies. It took some major code modding to get it even working and even then when it did zombie spawns stopped worldwide. 21.1 has some major changes in store behind the scenes.

@métaphore TFP has no plans for adding microtransactions nor for setting up any kind of exchange system between Dukes and real world currency. There is no plan to offer a free slow grinding path and a pay-to-win fast instant path. 
 

Traders were always meant to be a central part of the main game play and there are more developments that are planned, that will increase their influence in the game even more. These changes are not to set up a new source of revenue for TFP but are to set up the main story quests and the reputation system for gameplay purposes. 

That’s not to say they won’t ever release DLC content that will cost money, but they are not going to somehow lockdown Dukes so they can tie them to real currency and set up in-game pay-to-win transactions. That is just looney town talk. 

You underestimate my willingness to throw money at you guys for ANY DLC. Like an obscene amount. Get busy.

 

[NukemDed]

You underestimate my willingness to throw money at you guys for ANY DLC. Like an obscene amount. Get busy.

ummm my definition of dlc is ''does like cash''

chuck it this way matey, i got safe hands

 

[Matt115]

Well - better paid for additonal stuff that... have nothing new xd

 

[Tete1805]

I would gladly pay for additional content (new zombies, new animals, new biomes, new weapons, new POI for instance).

 

[Jost Amman]

I would gladly pay for additional content (new zombies, new animals, new biomes, new weapons, new POI for instance).

The good news is that you don't even have to pay for that.

The Fun Pimps have been so smart about it, that you can get all of that from mods, for free.  :nod:

 

[RhinoW]

The good news is that you don't even have to pay for that.

The Fun Pimps have been so smart about it, that you can get all of that from mods, for free.  :nod:

There are very hard limitations for actually decent custom content, let's not get ahead of ourselves here (this isnt minecraft or elderscrolls/fallout). But it is enough to create some fun new experiences. And for the most part, xml is quite accessible and easy to understand.

 

[Matt115]

The good news is that you don't even have to pay for that.

The Fun Pimps have been so smart about it, that you can get all of that from mods, for free.  :nod:

Bad news : most of them are bad quality  So better to get something good that something terrible for free : what you looks better and more suitable for 7dtd? This zombie models from paid game no more room in hell 2?

or from mod?

I think first option looks much better  

So:

1. Yes it would be possible to make vanilia suitable mod but... modders just don't do it

2.  Someone can said " But modders are not rich enough to buy good models!" - true yet are able to "take off " harley queen from Batman. I think they could take models from cod, l4d2, or even re 2 ( spoiler art - people are using RE 2 models for mods in diffrent games)

3. "this is cause because it's not final version" no. Which model you choose for mod is your decision. 7DTD get 1 update per year not per month. Somehow Valheim is able to get "vanilia" like aethetic mods

So - no this is not alternative: if you doesn't have leg but you would have money you would rather get good prothetic leg made by serious company not wooden leg done by using wood from garbare

 

[Jost Amman]

So - no this is not alternative: if you doesn't have leg but you would have money you would rather get good prothetic leg made by serious company not wooden leg done by using wood from garbare

Not true. According to many players on the Steam forums and here, the modders are so great that The Fun Pimps should give their game to them so that they can develop a proper game, instead of this "garbage" TFP have come up with. /s

 

[falloutcloud]

Is it time to retire this dev diary and start the A22 dev diary?

 

[Arma Rex]

Bad news : most of them are bad quality  So better to get something good that something terrible for free : what you looks better and more suitable for 7dtd? This zombie models from paid game no more room in hell 2?



or from mod?



I think first option looks much better  

So:

1. Yes it would be possible to make vanilia suitable mod but... modders just don't do it

2.  Someone can said " But modders are not rich enough to buy good models!" - true yet are able to "take off " harley queen from Batman. I think they could take models from cod, l4d2, or even re 2 ( spoiler art - people are using RE 2 models for mods in diffrent games)

3. "this is cause because it's not final version" no. Which model you choose for mod is your decision. 7DTD get 1 update per year not per month. Somehow Valheim is able to get "vanilia" like aethetic mods

So - no this is not alternative: if you doesn't have leg but you would have money you would rather get good prothetic leg made by serious company not wooden leg done by using wood from garbare

Yeah, it's pretty difficult to find mods that actively attempt to either use assets that look vanilla or otherwise just fit in the game's art style. Undead Legacy somewhat does this, but there are a few features that do not attempt to blend with the game. I suppose post-gold release more modders will be attracted to the game, perhaps with a vanilla focus.

 

[Riamus]

Bad news : most of them are bad quality  So better to get something good that something terrible for free : what you looks better and more suitable for 7dtd? This zombie models from paid game no more room in hell 2?



or from mod?



I think first option looks much better  

So:

1. Yes it would be possible to make vanilia suitable mod but... modders just don't do it

2.  Someone can said " But modders are not rich enough to buy good models!" - true yet are able to "take off " harley queen from Batman. I think they could take models from cod, l4d2, or even re 2 ( spoiler art - people are using RE 2 models for mods in diffrent games)

3. "this is cause because it's not final version" no. Which model you choose for mod is your decision. 7DTD get 1 update per year not per month. Somehow Valheim is able to get "vanilia" like aethetic mods

So - no this is not alternative: if you doesn't have leg but you would have money you would rather get good prothetic leg made by serious company not wooden leg done by using wood from garbare

Honestly, I think the first screenshot's zombies look horrible.  Not anywhere near as bad as the second but still not very good.  I like the looks of the zombies in this game much better.  As far as quality of artwork in mods, that's dependent on the ability of the person doing the work (within the limitations of the engine, of course).  Some modders are good graphics designers but many (most?) are not.  And often what you get with custom art is mediocre because of that.  But that doesn't mean a good graphics designer couldn't make art assets that look great in the game and fit the game's style.  It just isn't too likely to happen because modders just aren't usually really good graphics designers - or at least, not for character models, which can be far more difficult to do well than a sign or even a vehicle.

 

[BFT2020]

All of those zombie models are better than anything I could do today

 

[RhinoW]

Honestly, I think the first screenshot's zombies look horrible.  Not anywhere near as bad as the second but still not very good.  I like the looks of the zombies in this game much better.  As far as quality of artwork in mods, that's dependent on the ability of the person doing the work (within the limitations of the engine, of course).  Some modders are good graphics designers but many (most?) are not.  And often what you get with custom art is mediocre because of that.  But that doesn't mean a good graphics designer couldn't make art assets that look great in the game and fit the game's style.  It just isn't too likely to happen because modders just aren't usually really good graphics designers - or at least, not for character models, which can be far more difficult to do well than a sign or even a vehicle.

Sure, if you just compare the uniqueness of the designs, 7 days to die wins. However, you're not looking at the context of the zombies. Both games have hordes and lots of roaming enemies, meaning, you want to make "common" zombies as similar as possible, to avoid the noticeable repetition that ruins world credibility. Another big issue is that 7 days to die zombies feel stiff and artificial as they lack facial animations and ever since that headtracking update, even when they get that head stun animation where they grab it, they're still looking at you, which simply doesn't make sense. It's the tiny things that make a product feel complete, and atm,  neither the base game or modding have that.

Also, custom MODELS is that last of modding problems, a model swap is basic, the real modding comes from custom hitboxes, mechanics, animations, events...etc.

So I got my fingers crossed until gold, where I really hope this is addressed and 7 days can become as immortal and moddable as Minecraft. (I mean seriously, its a Unity game, should be much easier to mod at the end).

 

[Riamus]

Well, animations are likely to get improved surely before gold.  They are already working on zombie variations, so that helps.  As far as facial animations... I couldn't care less.  I'm not watching their facial expressions when I play.  I'm looking them.  Other animations, sure.

 

[RhinoW]

Well, animations are likely to get improved surely before gold.  They are already working on zombie variations, so that helps.  As far as facial animations... I couldn't care less.  I'm not watching their facial expressions when I play.  I'm looking them.  Other animations, sure.

Seriously? No mouth opening, biting, twitching? Most of 7dtd encounters are close quarters. it's so weird having all zombies keep the same face no matter what. To each their own, but if they ever add it, you'll see.

 

[Riamus]

Seriously? No mouth opening, biting, twitching? Most of 7dtd encounters are close quarters. it's so weird having all zombies keep the same face no matter what. To each their own, but if they ever add it, you'll see.

Yes, really.  I wouldn't mind if they added that.  Anything that improves visuals is good.  I just really don't care.  I'm not talking to the zombies.  I'm fighting them.  And except in the early game, I'm usually killing them at a distance anyhow.

Besides, I have a feeling that if they add facial animations, especially biting animations, they will look cheesy.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though.

 

[Matt115]

Honestly, I think the first screenshot's zombies look horrible.  Not anywhere near as bad as the second but still not very good.  I like the looks of the zombies in this game much better.  As far as quality of artwork in mods, that's dependent on the ability of the person doing the work (within the limitations of the engine, of course).  Some modders are good graphics designers but many (most?) are not.  And often what you get with custom art is mediocre because of that.  But that doesn't mean a good graphics designer couldn't make art assets that look great in the game and fit the game's style.  It just isn't too likely to happen because modders just aren't usually really good graphics designers - or at least, not for character models, which can be far more difficult to do well than a sign or even a vehicle.

It's in WD style. looks better in movement : 

I don't think so. It's 10 years since release. So if someone was attracted - would join long time ago

 

[Matt115]

Not true. According to many players on the Steam forums and here, the modders are so great that The Fun Pimps should give their game to them so that they can develop a proper game, instead of this "garbage" TFP have come up with. /s

We live in the world when some people think that Cats skins in COD are cool : CoD players divided over “stupid” cat Operator skins in Warzone & MW2 - Charlie INTEL. Yet most people consider this as bad. While diamonds like days gone didn't get enough sold copies during released period so won't get sequel.  Yet - l4d2 which is much harder work to do right get high quality models : Warsztat Steam::Extended Common Infected (steamcommunity.com) , Warsztat Steam::L4D1 Common Infected Overhaul (steamcommunity.com) : it's done by this same person from 64 combination into 286 720! . Well - they mean probably mechanics, lack of content. TFP maybe do much less but much better quality - that's fact. Yes endless reworks are annoying and unnecessary yet... it's good quality unlike to modders work

All of those zombie models are better than anything I could do today

Not realy ; there is adage here : if you do something - do this solid/good ( can't be translate 1:1) or do totaly nothing.