I don't know, that sounds a lot like a Buell Blast I once rode.
They didn't call them the B Last for nothing.
PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary
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They didn't call them the B Last for nothing.
Sephiroth87xz
New member
Not really.
I dont have any perk except the weapons one, food and inventory size.
And trader inventory isn't linear, instead jump quality level and tier, giving to tier 2-3 quests already steel weapons, spear mostly of quality even 3-4.
Same for loot, i have get pistol in the first week and magnum in 2-3 weeks.
The situation is really unbalanced and not linear for trader/loot/quests.
Must be alot more limited, because get steel weapons or firearms need steel to get created so soon, break totally the progression and difficulty of the game.
Magazine progression is alot better, where you get to create steel alot more late.
Yes this is the situation.
Without magazine or perks, you get from loot high quality or high tier weapons too soon compared to crafting.
This totally break the overall progression and difficulty of the game.
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icehot
Active member
I don't think this is that far unbalanced (maybe a little), like maybe you could spend a bit longer in each tier perhaps to drag the game out a bit longer... But firstly I'd expect a trader to have better stuff than I can make myself, other people are selling to him and has other suppliers - if you can just make it all, why bother questing or using your dukes for anything? Imho you want them to be ahead of the curve.
Secondly, after 2 or 3 weeks, I think most players would expect to have some decent weapons by that amount of time - that's like 20 to 30 hours of gameplay, how long do you want it to last before you start getting decent stuff?
Realism ("other people selling to him") is a useless argument for this game if we talk about balancing. Secondly 2 to 3 weeks is less than 20 to 30 hours except with a longer day setting but he said he plays default. Now a magnum isn't endgame gun either, but steel melee weapons are and the pimps seem to target a longer playtime than say 4 weeks. My multiplayer group is at day 12 and already has an assortment of tier3 weapons and armor. Reaching quest tier3 with a group of players is a matter of a few days, giving out end-game equipment with such quests is a recipe for making the looting itself and crafting irrelevant.
I agree that the trader should have stuff to buy, but that either has to be in the same random range like the stuff you find or craft. OR the amount of dukes (which you mainly get from quests) has to be reduced so you can't simply buy anything valuable that the trader shows.
The quest reward of dukes needs to be one of the random choices, not on top of it, and needs to be reduced. Or maybe it could be removed completely and you only make money by selling the most expensive quest reward!
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icehot
Active member
Realism is part of the simulation of it though, we're "pretending" he's got his stock from somewhere, and not just magic, yes technically he didn't but still, in the story side of it, it makes some sort of sense. Ok I did think this when typing out the timing bit, but 3 weeks is 21 hours, I'd hope I'm not on stone tools after that amount of time lol... I still think if crafting is ahead of trading/questing, then no one will bother to buy things, cos it's cheaper to make them - so you want some incentive to quest and/or buy things, so imho you do want them to offer better things than you can make yourself. Otherwise what you'll probably see is people just going for the end loot again, and just looting mailboxes constantly to speed up their crafting, and never bother with the trading/questing side of things.
Now I do agree it's a bit too fast, though with single player, I'm on day 15 right now since it went out of experimental, and I would say I have mid tier stuff, pump shotgun (which I bought for 10,000 dukes after using better barter, daring adventurer, sugar buts, and awesome sauce - so i had to invest to get that) and an orange AK-47. I'm on tier 4 quests right now. So yeah might be an issue with multiplayer, but single player seems ok, but like I said, I do think you go through the quest tiers a little quickly.
I'm also now starting to see radiated in the quests, so I kind of need those items now too.
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saltychipmunk
New member
There is realism and there is internal realism. no one here is asking for true realism. But the game does need to do a better job making sure all of its forms of progression are internally consistent with one another.
And right now they are not and it is breaking the experience. I should not have tier 4 steel tools before I can craft teir 5 iron ones. I should not be offered a tier 5 pump shot gun as a reward before I can craft quality 3 pipe shotguns.
The devs have spent all of this time making sure everything is tied to game stage.
The loot we find: game stage
The zombies we fight: game stage
The loot vendors sell: game stage
But for some reason the quest tiers we can do is not blocked by game stage. And worse still the rewards we get from completing a tier of quests are all effectively progression skips.
Like think about how ridiculous it is that we can just get a bike for running 10 tier 1 quests. It effectively invalidates needing to invest any perk points or crafting magazines into vehicles. why even have the first tier of vehicle?
And right now they are not and it is breaking the experience. I should not have tier 4 steel tools before I can craft teir 5 iron ones. I should not be offered a tier 5 pump shot gun as a reward before I can craft quality 3 pipe shotguns.
The devs have spent all of this time making sure everything is tied to game stage.
The loot we find: game stage
The zombies we fight: game stage
The loot vendors sell: game stage
But for some reason the quest tiers we can do is not blocked by game stage. And worse still the rewards we get from completing a tier of quests are all effectively progression skips.
Like think about how ridiculous it is that we can just get a bike for running 10 tier 1 quests. It effectively invalidates needing to invest any perk points or crafting magazines into vehicles. why even have the first tier of vehicle?
Crafting being on equal footing would not mean a guaranteed level of magazines read, it would just define the average case. It is still random whether any of the weapons you want is ahead or behind the average.
I agree that crafting just like looting is a relatively cheap method of getting stuff. On the other hand, if you get mountains of dukes then buying is cheap as well (cheap in the sense of not being a difficult decision). And quest rewards are as cheap as looting but multiple times better as you can choose between a few rewards and one of those will almost always be useful.
Day 15 is certainly a day when the player should have AK or double barrel shotgun and the occasional tier2 item like a pump shotgun, but I would guess you got all or nearly all of the good stuff from the trader and this "single source" of good stuff looks like a problem to me because it devalues crafting and looting.
Many players especially in MP seem to have a lot of better stuff at that time though and the problem is all that advanced stuff comes from trader and rewards.
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icehot
Active member
Agreed on the average thing, it doesn't negate the point that traders should be able to sell you better things than you can build yourself, and questing like in all other types of questing games should offer you something you actually want and not just junk - look at all the discussions for b317, when everyone was complaining all the rewards were a load of crap.
There's also plenty I'm buying like food, liquids, ammo, cobble/concrete etc, so I can't just focus on saving every penny for the best weapon he offers - it took me several days of questing to save up what was needed to buy that pump shotgun - yes that one was from the trader. The AK I looted. Also something to consider here, is that I'm currently playing the intellect tree - they don't even have a gun you can spec into - so in that playthrough I'm entirely reliant on the traders/questing/looting to get anything good at all.
During experimental I got to day 40 or so I think with b313 - and I was buying stuff and crafting stuff. In single player it does seem ok, not perfect, but not far off either, like some people are saying it's a major issue. I think it's more of a tweak than anything major, at least for single player. I have no idea how you could stop people teaming up in MP, and just churning out 20 quests per day, that's no wonder the traders are showing them good stuff early on in that case.
Doing tier 4 quests with rads coming in now, I also do need some decent weapons - and don't say the double barrel is decent, most people skip that if they can cos it'll likely get you killed when there's a lot of zombies. Infact looking at it like this, perhaps it's the crafting side not keeping up with the rest of the game, cos I certainly feel with the enemies I'm getting that the equipment I've got to deal with them is about right.
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Rince
New member
With one point in DA and zero in LL in my case the progression felt nice, slow but steady and while a few times I got some lucky item, crafting was the main source of my stuff.
The traders sounds like a tough cookie to balance. Hope they manage to find a sweet spot.
Nobody wants to stop people teaming up, but there is enough incentive to team up, for example time savings (faster clear, less driving back to trader inbetween), shared xp, safety in numbers.
I would distribute items and dukes from the quest reward into the poi loot chests. This would mean no change for single player (you would get out the same as now), but groups would get less for a single quest. Also quest rewards should not get better with tier but follow the same pattern as the loot, i.e. the normal loot stage should be used like when opening containers in the POI.
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RipClaw
Well-known member
If all quest rewards are based on the lootstage, you have the problem that you don't get a better reward for a T5 quest than for a T1 quest. So why spend time and ammunition on a T5 quest?
icehot
Active member
Yeah this, so everyone will just do T1 quests all the time cos they're easy, whereas T5 quests you don't really get enough ammo back from what you spend out on already. I think making each tier of quest longer than what it is would be a good start.
But to go with what meganoth says, but in a slightly different way. You could distribute the trader stage points, much like they do with the party XP distribution, so that each player receives a share of that total to increase the trader stage - that would slow it down for multiplayer, and also not let single player be so badly nerfed.
Slingblade2040
Active member
Can loot bundles please be removed from quest and loot tables? They give ridiculous amounts of ammo, killed off any reason to craft traps or turrets and appear often enough that it's made the trap magazines pointless.
Also stop having the traders hand out such OP gear for quest rewards. Just make them give us parts so we actually have an incentive to craft.
It's crazy how the rewards easily outpace the crafting skills.
Also stop having the traders hand out such OP gear for quest rewards. Just make them give us parts so we actually have an incentive to craft.
It's crazy how the rewards easily outpace the crafting skills.
meilodasreh
New member
...but...
A21 Official Release Notes | 7 Days to Die
...yeah whatever, TFP are known to be overly optimistic sometimes.
And I guess we all agree quest rewards tend to be not-that-ensured-to-be appropriately balanced,
regardless of that some players think it isn't that bad, whilst others call it a complete misfit.
A21 Official Release Notes | 7 Days to Die
...yeah whatever, TFP are known to be overly optimistic sometimes.
And I guess we all agree quest rewards tend to be not-that-ensured-to-be appropriately balanced,
regardless of that some players think it isn't that bad, whilst others call it a complete misfit.
I was talking about the quality of the weapons and armor given out, if that wasn't clear. The total or maximal sum of what you get as quest reward can still be determined by the tier of the POI.
That could even mean that the other choices for the reward far outweigh the value of the gun you get offered. If you specced into that gun and it is 1-3 quality steps better than the one you have then you usually don't care what a trader would pay for it.
If you don't need that gun you would have other options more valuable and either take one because you want the items (stacks of ammo for example) or take the one with the highest value (to sell it immediately) in which case you don't care at all what the value is of all the other items you could select.
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RhinoW
New member
Do you play with 300% XP multiplier? Because I do (and 300% block damage) and I noticed that crafting gets thrown back because of how quickly I rise on gamestage. It's a double edged sword, as radiateds and wights are found very early on, but at the same time, the quest rewards and loot are insane. Since the physical time you spend looting gets overshadowed by the gamestage, you are not able to pick up enough magazines to "battle" the loot you are already able to get.
So for loot quality, that's my own "fault". But I do agree 100% with you that ammo is just ridiculous, and it has been ridiculous since A17. Never have I ever stockpiled on so much ammo and used it so needlessly with more to spare. And it was like that since day 1, loot a few buildings and raid a shotgun messiah, and you're already reaching more ammo than you need to use early on, with the ability to actually use that ammo with the pipe weaponry.
However, spending ammo is kinda required, since zombie attack hitboxes and reactions are still buggy, and difficulty comes in the form of bullet sponges and zombie numbers, so run and gun is kind of mandatory. And I'd wager that if I played with no multipliers, and had a steady gamestage, I would have even more ammo to spare, because I wouldnt be facing high tier zombies so early on.
I'll also add explosives and molotovs to the list, as crafting a molotov is wasting fuel, while a quick t1 quest has a high chance to give you 10 for a reward as well as pipebombs and contact grenades.
I'm not complaining though, as the game is quite fun like this, but the fun comes in the form of mowing down big hordes of enemies on bloodmoon, rather than the rest of the game. Clearing PoIs becomes a boring task with very little risk, unless its one of those BS triggers that has been talked about. I'm also going to show my dislike for those end dungeon loot crates that completley destroyed the meaning of scavenging.
the_envenom
New member
Love the new update, even though I know you're on break, just a small request for next update/alpha. Can you add actual eating animations, anything I eat, blueberry pie, pumpkin pie, sham, can of peas, anything, it's meat in the eating animation always!!!
Same for drinks!! Exact same glass jar.....
Same for drinks!! Exact same glass jar.....
I've read somewhere that A22 will focus on animation somehow. So finger crossed we will have decent eating animation... and sound designLove the new update, even though I know you're on break, just a small request for next update/alpha. Can you add actual eating animations, anything I eat, blueberry pie, pumpkin pie, sham, can of peas, anything, it's meat in the eating animation always!!!
Same for drinks!! Exact same glass jar.....
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