PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Boop]

You missed the easiest option that would not need any global balance changes:  If TFP diminishes the stats range between q1 and q6 weapons, then the differenence between the tiers will be automatically bigger

Currently each quality level increases damage by 5% of the base damage for a weapon (if I remember correctly), plus/minus a random value. Reduce that to 3% and a q5 stone axe is not on average 20% better than a q1 stone axe but only 12%. An q1 iron pickaxe would now be 8% better in relation to that q5 stone axe without changing anything about it.

Durability is not an issue in this game, especially for stone stuff. It's a near instant repair that costs 1 of very easy stuff to get. I would only be skeptical of using something if they required parts to repair, but if I'm not mistaken, nearly everything is repaired with the repair kit. Though I do agree that the difference should be more radical like you said.

I do think there's a middle ground, like meganoth said, there could be a tier damage value nerf, or like riamus said, have more specific requirements for mods.

To be fair, I agree with both of their ideas. And I personally would handle the situation like this:

1. Have the quality disparity/requirements increase based on tier:

    - Stone tools would require 10 magazines to reach max quality, while the following tiers would require exponentially more.

    - However, also make the qualities have different percentage gains based on tier +3%/5%/7%

    - This makes sure that stone tools are average all around (as they should) and the max tier has significant upgrades between qualities, which also take longer to reach, extending the endgame and buffing the early game to mid game progression by getting into tier 2 weapons.

2. Rebalance mods to tie with both quality and tier:

   - Stone 1-2 quality would not allow any mods, while 3-4 quality allows 1 and 5 quality would allow 2

   - Iron 1-2 quality would allow 1 mod, 3-4 quality allows 2, and 5 quality allows 3

   - Steel 1-2 quality allows 2, 3-4 quality allows 3, 5 quality allows 4

   - Quality 6 weapons would allow 4 at all times to prevent people from not being able to use their favorite gun (4 is the max right? genuinely can't remember)

   Something along these lines, I just wrote this in a few minutes, but each weapon be it tier or quality, would feel very different from each other.

Nope, I actually did think of that.  You're not thinking of this with balance brain. 

First of all it is a global balance change, you're changing the balance of literally every weapon and tool lol.  Q5 stone gets nerfed by 8% globally, which might not sound like much but if you cross any hit thresholds it becomes substantial.  And that's going to happen across the range of quality/weapons/enemies/tools.  So it won't be 8%.  Let's take the common zombie.  Lets say pre-nerf it took Q5 stone 3 hits and a power attack on the ground to kill...all headshots.  Now it takes 4 hits and a power attack.  That's effectively a 25% nerf for the most common weapon in the game.  Players are going to notice their stone tools are weaker.


It also STILL runs into much the same problem as currently.  Right now its a question of "x is literally better than y", but even if you squish everything numerically you're forgetting about the repair costs.  Stone Spear does not have repair kits required to maintain.  If Iron upgrades are only a tiny bit better (and with the mod amount differences they'll prolly still be worse) then its not better at all unless you have infinite repair kits.  In a game state where the water economy has been hit and glue and duct tape have significant value then Stone Spear is still going to be the better choice for smart players until roughly the same quality break point...iron 3.  This is even worse for Stone Axe since its good for everything and now Stone

Not only that but you've made this change at a cost.  Quality now matters alot less.  Not only might you still skip Quality 5 stone to Q3 iron, you might just skip qualities more in general now because it takes 2 qualities to make the difference of 1 now.  5% vs 6% for two compressed qualities.

No need to wonder any more. I made a modlet with your suggestions. Removes scaling from mods and scales damage off quality only (and perks). T0 is squished, and T1+ starts at higher and higher scaling levels (resulting in a lower increase per Q but it makes the jump from Q6 to higher tier Q1 more worthwhile). Mods are also based off tier, with T0 having 0-2 mods based on Q, T1 having 1-3 mods based on Q, and so on.

You can fidget with the numbers yourself - I put them all in a very direct format.

https://mega.nz/file/UAhUAAob#vl8zaO--tFHn88RcX_m0jMgBCxKmGErYBB6v2rEwbXs

 

[hiemfire]

As mentioned before this is only true until mods. 

Even with mods and perks taken into account, leather and military armor still penalize mobility, noise generation and stamina use. Any value above 0 is more than what padded armor causes.

 

[NekoPawtato]

Has any determination been made that build 317 is going to be the one that goes stable?

Just my guess here, but I would think they'd want to at least fix the issue with trader quest rewards first before it goes stable, as it's majorly unbalanced right now and they're aware of it

 

[nickasaurus rex]

Water is slowly accumulated over time at a rate of approximately 3 jars every 24 game hours.

Ok so after playing my first 7 days in the game I can confidently say for 2 players this is just not enough. Please increase the rate! 

Also, I thought dysentery was the only issue drinking water from a lake but it damages you so much even if I don't get dysentery

 

[Kamikaze]

It probably should. As a creep around at night stealth player, I am thinking zeds should be more attracted to light like a beacon in the night. Having to hide campfires from sight would be fun as I feel like i should have to do that, yet it does not matter currently.

And you know what would be also great? Smoke mechanics like Valheim have. It's fun mechanics to play with. 

 

[meganoth]

That doesn't "fix" the problem though, it just makes it less apparent.

The current system needs to go. My guess is that it's an old relic that was patchworked in without much thought and put on the "later" pile.

Items scale poorly because the mod system is completely out of whack. Adding 10% damage per mod surpasses every other benefit, making #mod slots the only thing that counts. Mods are also allowed to suck because you only use them for that sweet damage boost anyway.

I am pretty sure it once was only 6% per mod and could well go down again, even to smaller values. I still think it has a positive effect since you'll never be sorry when you find an installable mod even if you are not interested in the function of it itself. But I also would not shed tears if it vanished completely.

Mainly I think that adapting that percentage as well as the random variation are balancing details that would be "automatically" looked at and adapted when doing the range shrinking.

And yes, the 10% are very probably too much, but consider that currently a q5 stone item has 3, a q1 iron item has 1 mod slot. If all are filled the maximum bonus the q5 item gets from this is twice that bonus. Once the actual gap between q5 stone and q1 iron after the shrinking is known that bonus should be less than half that gap. Fast and easy balancing I would say.

Sure, you still have two more mods installed, which could skew the balance. But on the other hand many iron tier items have additional advantages. For example the q1 pistol has also more ammo capacity and the ability to load the magazine extender mod (though that could be a false rumor, I heard it but didn't check it myself).

I am not saying that your ideas are bad. Just that the current system has enough knobs to turn to make it work as well

The hard solution here is to remove mod increases to damage - no more 10% boost per mod. For the new system:

1 - Quality determines straight up damage, just like it does already. 

2 - Even out mod slots. Each tier has 1 more mod slot, and can gain 2 more slots at higher Q. Q1-2 Stone spear has 0 slots, Q3-4 stone spear has 1 slot, Q5-6 has 2 slots. Q1-2 Iron spear has 1 mod slot, Q3-4 iron spear has 2 mod slots, Q5-6 iron spear has 3 mod slots. Q1-2 Steel spear has 2 mod slots, Q3-4 steel spear has 3 mod slots, Q5-6 steel spear has 4 mod slots. A theoretical T4 spear would start at 3 mod slots and end at 5. This will keep a consistent level across tiers and ensure that at the very least, a Q2 iron spear will be a worthwhile upgrade over a Q6 stone spear.

3 - Mods provide an *effect* that is worth using. The best example of this is the scope for a sniper rifle. 2x, 4x, 8x scopes have a distinct use. The scope doesn't need to provide a 10% damage boost as it provides an effect that changes how you play. Using an 8x scope? Perfect hunter rifle or sniper, but good luck trying to shotgun a zombie at 1m distance.  All mods should be like this. Equipping your weapon with 4 terrible mods would no longer be useful, but thinking about your use case could lead to some significant advantages in the right scenario. And of course generic mods will still be of generic use. The diffficult part is that all these mods need to be created and pondered so that they fit. This is presumably why TFP added the 10% bonus in the first place; as a temporary placeholder so they wouldn't have to think about making all mods useful.

What happens with the scaling with this system? A Q5 stone weapon will be slightly worse than a Q1 iron weapon *unless* you have 2 excellent mods. If you only have 1 then Q1 iron will be slightly better.

Scaling will be toned down between Q1 and Q6 as a) the number of mods are lowered and b) mods no longer provide an inherent 10% bonus. The scaling from quality can of course be adjusted to fit whatever numbers are needed on the tiers, and presumably they will be scaled up to account for the 40% extra damage that has been removed from mods. This will also make upgrading quality a worthwhile pursuit in itself.

The big challenge is going to be making interesting and valuable mods; which also happens to be an elegant ingress towards making the weapon classes more distinct.

 

[meganoth]

Ok so after playing my first 7 days in the game I can confidently say for 2 players this is just not enough. Please increase the rate! 

Do you know that you can have more than one dew collector?

Also, I thought dysentery was the only issue drinking water from a lake but it damages you so much even if I don't get dysentery

Yes, you need to factor in that damage. Either drink only a few sips, eat something afterwards or have a first aid bandage ready.

 

[meganoth]

Aye,  I get your intent, I'm just saying that it definitely is a large impacting global balance change and it could have larger ramifications than you may realize, often to specific weapons or tools.  These would be difficult to identify without alot of testing or just letting the individual players get upset at the nerf and bug report it if their weapon/tool is affected more than feels good.

Players getting upset? Pfft, happens automatically at any change. The magazine and water redesigns and  the last patch had, IMHO, more massive ramifications for players than some flipping points for weapons or tools moving up or down a quality level.

The group that will notice it the most will be expert players and I expect them to adapt to new circumstances. Not call for preservation of the status quo.

Ultimately its a preference thing and something is being lost no matter where you move the air in the balloon.  I'll  play either way ofc, I just push back against the idea that these kinds of solutions actually solve the problem.  They do not.  At bet they reduce it somewhat while potentially causing new problems .

Maybe lost maybe gained. Maybe both in different places. The progression discontinuity between the tiers is quite a big "hole" in the design. You may have a different opinion, but I think it obviously violates design rules TFP seems to follow. For example that all items in the game should have value at least once in the game. And tier1 iron items have none. Nobody would ever craft one currently.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

a

 

[mstdv inc]

WITH THE OPTIMIZER

* after optimizer A21 update: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...4584/OCs-7dtd-Optimizer-EarlyRelease-4.17.zip

"Before i added the a21 optimizer update: 39 players on our server was unplayable server fps was around 5

Our server has been testing the optimzier for multiple months now and couldn't imagaine running a multiplayer server without it in a21.

View attachment 28211

Officially supported number of players: 1-8. 

 

[meganoth]

Officially supported number of players: 1-8. 

He knows. The optimizations used could still have positive effects for <=8 players too, and making more players happy is nice if the changes are easy to implement and have no detrimental effects on normal play.

 

[mstdv inc]

He knows. The optimizations used could still have positive effects for <=8 players too, and making more players happy is nice if the changes are easy to implement and have no detrimental effects on normal play.

Good. It's a matter of optimizing performance. 
What about the balance problem? Do you think TFP will be able to balance the game for 1-8-32 players at the same time? The problem of synchronizing the destructible world between all players. 
This is either a solo and a cooperative of up to 8 people, or servers.  
I don't understand the TFP policy on this issue a bit. They don't want to deny more than 8 players on the server, but they also don't provide official support. 
I really hope this issue will be resolved by the time we get to the gold.

 

[meganoth]

Good. It's a matter of optimizing performance. 
What about the balance problem? Do you think TFP will be able to balance the game for 1-8-32 players at the same time? The problem of synchronizing the destructible world between all players. 

TFP surely won't do anything about the balance. But there is a difference between having to install a cryptic mod that modifies low-level stuff in the game and depends on one talented guy who could loose interest in supporting the mod at any time, and a rather "simply" XML balancing mod for servers lots of people could write.

This is either a solo and a cooperative of up to 8 people, or servers.  
I don't understand the TFP policy on this issue a bit. They don't want to deny more than 8 players on the server, but they also don't provide official support. 
I really hope this issue will be resolved by the time we get to the gold.

 

[spacepiggio]

TFP surely won't do anything about the balance. But there is a difference between having to install a cryptic mod that modifies low-level stuff in the game and depends on one talented guy who could loose interest in supporting the mod at any time, and a rather "simply" XML balancing mod for servers lots of people could write.

I'm sorry but...aren't we still in XP? I thought we were still testing & looking for bugs. Maybe wait for the Stable Build before adding mods & running massive servers or even complaining about your mod not working. Let them fix the game so we can get a stable & we all can play & complain about something else that will @%$# us off down the road.

 

[fragtzack]

I am pretty sure it once was only 6% per mod and could well go down again, even to smaller values. I still think it has a positive effect since you'll never be sorry when you find an installable mod even if you are not interested in the function of it itself. But I also would not shed tears if it vanished completely.

Mainly I think that adapting that percentage as well as the random variation are balancing details that would be "automatically" looked at and adapted when doing the range shrinking.

And yes, the 10% are very probably too much, but consider that currently a q5 stone item has 3, a q1 iron item has 1 mod slot. If all are filled the maximum bonus the q5 item gets from this is twice that bonus. Once the actual gap between q5 stone and q1 iron after the shrinking is known that bonus should be less than half that gap. Fast and easy balancing I would say.

Sure, you still have two more mods installed, which could skew the balance. But on the other hand many iron tier items have additional advantages. For example the q1 pistol has also more ammo capacity and the ability to load the magazine extender mod (though that could be a false rumor, I heard it but didn't check it myself).

I am not saying that your ideas are bad. Just that the current system has enough knobs to turn to make it work as well

IMHO, the mod slots should be independent of the quality #. 

All stone tier = 1 mod slot.

All Iron tier    = 2 mod slot.

All steel tier  = 3 mod slot

Getting a 4th mod slot (currently quality 6), requires survivor to purchase that enhancement from  a trader. An enhancement only available after completing tier 4 quest line.

This 4th mod slot could also be used on the lower tiers, thus possible for a stone tier to have 2 slots.

The game progression is definitely out of whack right now when it comes to how stone weapons with mods can be better than iron tier.  

 

[nickasaurus rex]

Do you know that you can have more than one dew collector?

Yes, you need to factor in that damage. Either drink only a few sips, eat something afterwards or have a first aid bandage ready.

Yes of course I know that I'm just not a fan of how little one dew collector gives you. 

 

[Riamus]

I'm sorry but...aren't we still in XP? I thought we were still testing & looking for bugs. Maybe wait for the Stable Build before adding mods & running massive servers or even complaining about your mod not working. Let them fix the game so we can get a stable & we all can play & complain about something else that will @%$# us off down the road.

That is someone who has been part of testing a mod for quote a while now, even in A20.  It won't be released until stable.

I don't see any reason why they can't let those interested know how it is working on A21.  It is a third party and not TFP so it isn't hurting anyone's game or updates to the game or balancing of the game who isn't going to play on those servers.  Those who like those servers would want to know the status even if the rest of us really don't care.

 

[jorbascrumps]

IMHO, the mod slots should be independent of the quality #. 

All stone tier = 1 mod slot.

All Iron tier    = 2 mod slot.

All steel tier  = 3 mod slot

Getting a 4th mod slot (currently quality 6), requires survivor to purchase that enhancement from  a trader. An enhancement only available after completing tier 4 quest line.

This 4th mod slot could also be used on the lower tiers, thus possible for a stone tier to have 2 slots.

The game progression is definitely out of whack right now when it comes to how stone weapons with mods can be better than iron tier.  

Mod slots are basically equivalent to item affixes in other games where higher rarities have increasing numbers of affixes possible. For example, in a game like Diablo legendaries are considered amongst the best gear because they have high stats and number of affixes. In 7 Days the concept is a little murky because we have "legendaries" in each tech tier which results in the current predicament. It's quite strange.

I'm not sure if TFP could/ will balance it so that a steel axe is definitively better than a stone axe 100% of the time because they like us to have interesting choices to make even if they may not make logical sense all of the time.

 

[Aldranon]

As I use to say: Guns don't kill people... it's the bullets.

So, pipe weapon would most likely do less damage as the pipe would rarely have an exact 7.62mm opening.  That would give less energy to the bullet and hence, do less damage.

For the modern weapons, the barrels condition would play the part in damage (probably a small part however).

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Hiya. Not sure why the optimizer I am producing keeps getting discussed. I have requested the testers be quiet about it and remove all links. That should never have been distributed. Sorry for any confusion on the subject. This forum should remain for discussion of a21. A new topic will be created for the optimizer when it is ready for public distro. Hope you are all enjoying the awesome new alpha