PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

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I have the feeling, that food / Drinks are no problem since day 1.

I find way enough cans / water. 

Sell some junk I find without rly searching for it, do 2 Missions and have always enough money to buy more food / drinks. 

So in General, I dont have the feeling that theres a "food Problem" I Need to fix myself within a few days to survive. 

Do you experience the Same guys or is It just me? 
Yea...it didn't take long for me to figure out water & food updates & I didn't have a struggle with anything but the water filter. You have to buy it & my play style usually ignores the Trader after the beginning quest. I usually play a Nomad survival theme & live off the land mining & scavenging plus you are constantly fixing fortifications for hordes so I don't have time for quests.

I found starting a camp near water to drink out of & I noticed the water towers have water in them again so I look at early game like this now.

@%$#s & Giggles, you can't avoid getting the @%$#s early game until you learn some recipes & get the water filter from the Trader. It's what I like most about the early game & after I get the water going its easy early game to crouch around on a bright early night & hunt chickens & rabbits for collecting the food you will need to start some mines.

I'm really liking this build, really playable & still has that chill up your spine effect going on...stable build coming soon I hope so I can really start playing.

 
I have the feeling, that food / Drinks are no problem since day 1.

I find way enough cans / water. 

Sell some junk I find without rly searching for it, do 2 Missions and have always enough money to buy more food / drinks. 

So in General, I dont have the feeling that theres a "food Problem" I Need to fix myself within a few days to survive. 

Do you experience the Same guys or is It just me? 
If you are allocating your resources towards food & water then yes it will not be an issue. However, it is resource management so you may find you need or want other things. To me this is good gameplay if you have to make hard decisions. If the resources are too abundant then it waters down the experience.

For example, the crucible does not unlock until you find 75 magazines. You may find yourself wanting to craft items with steel long before you reach that many. I have taken the 25 steel bars as a quest reward several times at the cost of a reward that would have given me more food or water.

 
I had a problem finding mechanical parts too but I could have scrapped the engine I found in a cars loot instead of going to the Trader. I opened a lot of working stiffs crates & didn't get anything but electrical.

 
If you are allocating your resources towards food & water then yes it will not be an issue. However, it is resource management so you may find you need or want other things. To me this is good gameplay if you have to make hard decisions. If the resources are too abundant then it waters down the experience.

For example, the crucible does not unlock until you find 75 magazines. You may find yourself wanting to craft items with steel long before you reach that many. I have taken the 25 steel bars as a quest reward several times at the cost of a reward that would have given me more food or water.


I also dont choose food / water rewards. 

Didnt even take the Filter since there never has been a problem with food etc from day one. 

I just do my casual looting and find enough. 

I stell Some stuff that  I find and dont Need to the trader, use the money for the vending machines and still have a lot money left. Besides that (maybe I am lucky) there a Tons of animals running around. 

I settled down on a roof in the City near the trader and had 3 deers in one night coming along. 

 
I have the feeling, that food / Drinks are no problem since day 1. I find way enough cans / water.


Yes, I think if you can get to a Trader and run a couple of missions then you're well on your way and water scarcity will be alleviated completely once you either have funds to consistently buy drinks from the trader or make a dew collector -- often Day 2. If something delays that then you could end up running a rather difficult hydration debt depending on the map, your play preferences, and some luck.

 
Yeah, it's a known bug.  Umm... how many times did you do this to your wife?  Once is because you didn't know.  Twice might be an accident.  More starts to become purposeful.  Lol!   ;)
Well...the fact that is pretty funny might have played a factor in how many times it "accidently" happened.....

 
falloutcloud said:
The Iron Gut perk will decrease the rate your food and hunger go down. The perk has other useful bits such as extended buffs but if you nerf the hunger and thirst you'll dilute the perk and some of the challenge.
Oh yeah, I know you can deal with it - played plenty. Generally a few days into any game I play I am set on food/water (pre A21, that is). So far A21 is no different. BUT, I do think with all the gameplay sliders they give you - one that modifies the consumption rate would be nice. That way you can have a game focused on building/fighting zombies - not so worried about food. Just another customization option I guess. 

exactly what I'm saying.

An experienced player's (as I may humbly call myself) survival shouldn't really depend on being lucky or not.


My point is that you had a very bad draw, but in my experience - it generally isn't that bad. So, instead of nerfing the entire game for edge case bad RNG, just accept the fact that occasionally, when you do RWG and then spawn in, you MIGHT have a rough go of it. Basically, it is a random gen survival game - you might once and a while die. Even an experienced survivalist (in real life) may run into rough patches where they can't find what they need. There is a bit of luck in real life too. Are you in the right place at the right time to stumble upon an animal you can hunt. Are you in the right place at the right time where you can find fresh water (in the scenario you are lost in the woods). 

Now, show me this is happening a lot - then I may change my tune. 

 
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Well I have to assume you didn't even read through my entire post, but stopped after the first sentence to start argue about it 🤨

Whatever, you have made your point, as I did too.

We have different points of view and different understandings about things, which is also ok.

Nobody has to convince one another, or show anything to prove their point.

It's fine.

And one of the devs already stated that it might be a bug that you are thrown into the middle of a barren nowhere (which seems to happen strangely often)

and it's going to be fixed. This is a good thing.

 
Yea...it didn't take long for me to figure out water & food updates & I didn't have a struggle with anything but the water filter. You have to buy it & my play style usually ignores the Trader after the beginning quest. I usually play a Nomad survival theme & live off the land mining & scavenging plus you are constantly fixing fortifications for hordes so I don't have time for quests.


Personally i've been running a game in which me and my buddy grab a quest each, knock them both out (thus getting us two rewards each) and then take two more before going back to base for the night.

We build/upgrade/repair at night and loot/quest during the day. 

You get plenty of loot by raiding the building that your quest is at, and the quest-reward loot tends to be REALLY good. Either a crate full of skillbooks or occasionally just a full weapon a full tier ahead of what you can make yourself. (I could make Tier 1 iron knives when the dude just gave me a Tier 4 machete, which i've been using ever since) sometimes they fork over workbenches (forges, chemstations) or stuff like a Beaker, which might be hard to find on your own. 

Plus, doing enough quests to get sent on a trade-routes mission gets you a bicycle early on and will quickly lead you to all the other traders (now that they have diffrent stock, it's important to know where they all are.) 

TLDR: Pay more attention to traders. Getting a quest to raid a POI that you already want to raid anyway is basically like getting paid twice. And that's without even accounting for dukes and exp that you get as a quest reward.

Use the dukes to clear the trader out of whatever skillbooks are relevant to you and you're basically getting paid three times.

This does require setting up a base near a useful trader though. I've noticed that the guy in the pine forest always seems to have cook and toolbooks, which are nice. 

The guy in the snowzone (in standard-gen navaz) seems to have gun-stuff and Jen obviously has medical books.

They're cheap too.

If you set up near Jen and do quests for her, you can probably learn how to make first-aid bandages in a day.

That's not bad at all. 

 
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Neminsis said:
It's not about leveling quickly on crafting magazines but being able to level at all. What exactly do you find extreme about miner 69er and Motherload given that you really don't need them at all since you're just going to be out constantly looting and will be able loot or buy more than enough resources to build the bare minimum base on top of some roof somewhere? Are those perks there just for RPing or some late game vanity project? Why even bother putting them into the game at all?

What exactly do you find so extreme about allowing primary resource gatherers the ability to buy books from the trader without having to take time away from their chosen profession to go do gopher jobs for a trader that's going to make the necessity of those books moot by offering to sell you what you want regardless?

This isn't about extremes, this is a basic economic balance issue given that crafting books, exp, and dukes are all part of the game's economy, and heavily favors one tree in particular. 


My comment was geared towards those that ignore game mechanics (i.e. removing POIs or just staying home building a base) but expect the game to be balanced towards those playstyles.  Learning by Reading, you have multiple options to get the various crafting magazines to progress - loot POIs, purchase from traders, quest rewards, air drops.  But if you remove most or all of those options while you are playing, it is not up to TFP to change the game to meet your playstyle, that is up to the player to mod the game.

I have not once perked into Daring Adventure or Better Barter in both of my playthroughs (and really not planning to).  I spec into both combat perks (knives, bows, pistols, stealth, etc) and first level utility perks (cooking, LoTL, salvage, mining, physician, etc) to survive as a lone player.  And I haven't spent one minute thinking about Int players being strong with traders or Str players being strong with mining and melee combat.  I work with the strengths of my build playstyle and counter any weaknesses that I have compared to other builds.

People play all the time without traders and have a great time doing so.  They might have to change things because of that choice (for example, making solar panels a loot item or crafting recipe).  You can choose not to visit any trader at all or just use them for basic supplies.  Nobody is forcing anyone to use traders in this game.  Heck, some people have removed all POIs from the game - but in those cases, if you removed those elements, you reduced where you can find crafting magazines; and it is up to you to figure out how to bring those elements back into the game.

7D2D is a great game where you have different ways you can play the game, but no game out there allows for infinite ways to play it.  Every game has restrictions in it, no matter where they are on the Sandbox scale.

 
My comment was geared towards those that ignore game mechanics (i.e. removing POIs or just staying home building a base) but expect the game to be balanced towards those playstyles.  Learning by Reading, you have multiple options to get the various crafting magazines to progress - loot POIs, purchase from traders, quest rewards, air drops.  But if you remove most or all of those options while you are playing, it is not up to TFP to change the game to meet your playstyle, that is up to the player to mod the game.

I have not once perked into Daring Adventure or Better Barter in both of my playthroughs (and really not planning to).  I spec into both combat perks (knives, bows, pistols, stealth, etc) and first level utility perks (cooking, LoTL, salvage, mining, physician, etc) to survive as a lone player.  And I haven't spent one minute thinking about Int players being strong with traders or Str players being strong with mining and melee combat.  I work with the strengths of my build playstyle and counter any weaknesses that I have compared to other builds.

People play all the time without traders and have a great time doing so.  They might have to change things because of that choice (for example, making solar panels a loot item or crafting recipe).  You can choose not to visit any trader at all or just use them for basic supplies.  Nobody is forcing anyone to use traders in this game.  Heck, some people have removed all POIs from the game - but in those cases, if you removed those elements, you reduced where you can find crafting magazines; and it is up to you to figure out how to bring those elements back into the game.

7D2D is a great game where you have different ways you can play the game, but no game out there allows for infinite ways to play it.  Every game has restrictions in it, no matter where they are on the Sandbox scale.


Personally i'd suggest making solar panels lootable. Or rather, make them harvestable at a low rate from destroyed solar banks.

Have Salvage skill give you better odds of getting them and/or getting better quality, like batteries from cars but rarer. (because destroyed Solar Banks are rare in and of themselves)

On that note: The new generators. The big ones with the Mo' Power signs on them? 

Yeah they need tuning up. Salvaging them with a wrench gives very little. It feels like they have decent loot in them (iron, brass, ect) but spread out over way too much Durability.

Like how military trucks used to be before this patch where they'd give the same loot as a car, but take 10x as many swings of your wrench to get it.

 
The only problem we have with Alpha 21 is this. So simply waiting is the solution? Is the source of the problem already known? (e.g. high percentage of hills/Mountains?)


I have built maps with no hills or mountains, and it hangs for maybe a couple minutes at 84% on road smoothing.

 
Really, the only problem with Road Smoothing is that there is no visual representation that it is progressing. Overall, even with the slowness of road smoothing, maps are generating faster in A21. If players could see that it was making progress it would end all the worry that the game is frozen. 

 
So did a clear quest at the pass and gas refinery kinda sure it was a tier 3 and was going mental as to why the hell i couldn't find the last few zombies and it turns out I had to walk through a path near the roof that leads to the giant tankers to make them spawn in. Also no the little yellow dot didn't show up it only showed for some vulture on top of the tanker which i used a different method to get to.

Can these triggers be reworked or something? Also can we please get some more option settings? Would love for wandering hordes to actually feel like a wandering horde. Like maybe let it be set for size like we do for blood moons. Just a pain having to install mods or edit files for simple QoL stuff.

 
The only problem we have with Alpha 21 is this. So simply waiting is the solution? Is the source of the problem already known? (e.g. high percentage of hills/Mountains?)


There are two ways to generate a World.

I've used both in the first two releases so far and it does stall for awhile in the 8x% area (road smoothing), but does finishing after a little bit.

I have a fairly new machine (i7 13700k, 32 GB, 4070Ti) and it takes me about 5 - 10 minutes to do a 10k Map.

I've seen a few people doing 15k Maps, but not sure how long that took or what their hardware was like.

So anyway, depending on what you have, it may take longer.

Really, the only problem with Road Smoothing is that there is no visual representation that it is progressing. Overall, even with the slowness of road smoothing, maps are generating faster in A21. If players could see that it was making progress it would end all the worry that the game is frozen. 


Yea, A20 took quite some time to generate a 10k Map.

Different hardware, but it took a really long time.

 
Yes, the ones in the game that are called burnt or abandoned are the ones without a chance for an engine to drop.  That would similar to the ones we came across in A20 that were frame only.


Noticed as well (and caught on VERY quickly) that gas pumps and barrels give out far less gasoline and that if you want to get a good amount, wrenching searchable cars is the only other way besides crafting! Burnt out cars and even wrecked cars that you cannot search do not give you gasoline (or if they do, it is very little, as I have yet to see them do so). I thought that was super cool and very intuitive, since the "searched" or "opened" cars probably would have already been looted for whatever supplies they could have been. Good to know you can only get engines this way too, it makes sense because half the cars that aren't searchable are either destroyed or wrecked in such a way that the engine would probably be destroyed!

Sorry for geeking out in your replies but sincerely from at least me, I love when game developers add in super tiny details like that, it really does make the game feel more real, and on the topic of that I can't gush enough about all of the new assets. I don't even look twice at them unless it's an asset I haven't yet managed to see, and that's a ridiculously good thing, I presume. They blend into the existing art style the game currently has so incredibly seamlessly, it's unreal.

 
That's good to hear, I am receiving reports from players in discord saying that they are finding tons of empty book stands and book piles after completing magazine collections. they are most likely using mods as well. As long as the possibility remains, thats all that matters. I am barely looking into that aspect. I want to get a feel for vanilla before modding to seriously

 
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it is not up to TFP to change the game to meet your playstyle, that is up to the player to mod the game.
One more time, this isn't 'my' playstyle, this is something that affects multiple playstyles. This isn't about narrowing the balance for my particular playstyle as the half dozen people on this board that have implied otherwise have suggested. In fact, it's not even something that would affect them at all, and yet they're all up in arms about even the suggestion of it.  Nothing I've suggested would change the game in the slightest way for the people that are content with how it is presently. not one tiny bit. So what is it do you suppose that makes veteran players not want to have the game be more accessible for new players, to have the game be more attractive to a wider audience? 

Certainly it's in TFP interest to have as broad an audience as possible and not just tailor the vanilla game for a bunch of hardcore players, right? I mean, the money of filthy casuals spends just the same and there's more of them, right? 

Look, you're a modder, how long would it take you to bump up the exp gain on gathering tasks, and the prices for bulk materials and craftables? You wouldn't do as good of a job of getting the balance right without access to the internally generated spreadsheets that TFP have, but it would take you less than 5 minutes including taking 3 minutes out to read this and think of some scathing reply. And even so, you absolutely could not distribute that mod at anywhere near the same scale to those filthy casuals that TFP can by just balancing the vanilla game. 

I have not once perked into Daring Adventure or Better Barter in both of my playthroughs
You do understand that's almost a completely meaningless statement, right? Given that you're a veteran of the game and your previously stated preference for more challenging play, your avoidance of those particular perks would only serve to emphasize that you're aware that they make the game much easier. Which would only serve as more evidence in support of the thesis that lower skilled players or those simply looking to shortcut progression would choose them.
 

People play all the time without traders and have a great time doing so.
 Have you tried it lately? In a wilderness or Navezgane spawn? None of my suggestions would have any affect on the no trader playstyle since that's a playstyle that relies entirely on raiding, and I brought it up to highlight how dependent the player is on the trader and how op they are.  Do consider that I'm saying this after the first patch has come out that has given a bit of a nerf to the trader by reducing the number of books available through them and increasing the price of water filters. So, obviously TFP are more aware of the trader imbalance than half the people on this board telling me that it's not their responsibility to balance things to 'my' playstyle. 🙄
 

7D2D is a great game where you have different ways you can play the game, but no game out there allows for infinite ways to play it.
If I'd suggested that there should be infinite ways to play then that might actually have some relevance. I didn't, in fact, I suggested minor tweaks to existing systems, that TFP have already laid the groundwork for by giving experience for gathering tasks and the ability to sell tier 0 stone arrows and bulk materials to the trader, in accordance with the stated goal of making crafting more important to the main game loop. If the counter thesis were correct that TFP intend to only serve veteran players or tight knit groups with an entirely quest focused game loop than why do those systems that don't serve that game loop exist?

Yes, it is a great game, and if I were to say otherwise the tens of thousands of hours that I've spent on it would quickly prove me a liar, and it's not like I'm one of those people pining for the golden age of LBD and fishing turds from the toilets. You'll find those people on the opposite side of this conversation still bitter, thoughtlessly repeating what they were told when their favorite system was discarded for a better one, "it's not TFP responsibility to cater to every playstyle, just mod it." 

To be absolutely clear, because I've long grown tired of this conversation, I like the new system and I absolutely do understand the design logic behind it. I'm not suggesting a reversion to any old system, new code, or that development be slowed in any way. I'm merely suggesting a quick balance pass be made on some existing values on existing systems that wouldn't have any effect on the primary game loop other than to minorly offset the bias towards the intellect tree and allow players some leeway in when and how they interact with the main game loop, and that it would go a long way in smoothing over a lot of complaints from more casual players. Literally, nothing that would have and effect on anyone that's so kindly decided to gatekeep me for even bringing it up. 

Now, unless you have something constructive to say, please try and avoid quoting me in the future.

Thank you and have a great day.

 
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