PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Neminsis]

Why would I intentionally play a game in a way its not intended to be played and then complain about it?

How can you tell if it's not intended, or just incomplete. Why do you think you have the ability to sell bulk materials and low level craftables like stone arrows to the trader? The devs have said over and over that it's not complete and that it's an iterative process. Besides, if I was actually complaining it wouldn't sound like, "hey, here's a potential balance issue that you might want to look at while this is still in the testing phase, and here's how I think you can solve it with the lowest amount of effort." I guarantee you that any dev that read that just nodded, maybe rolled their eyes a bit and said to themselves, "I know" with a pained expression while they were looking at a ginormous to do list. What you might not have noticed is what they did not do, they did not jump on my case about how I'm trying to do something unintended and then harass me for two days like some weird fan boy on a mission.

Could you please just stop quoting me. I really don't want to engage with your gatekeeping nonsense any further.

 

[Ralathar44]

How can you tell if it's not intended, or just incomplete.

Never play a game based on what you think it might be one day or what it could be.  That route leads to Star Citizen lol.  Even IF the devs have your exact ideas in mind (which is highly unlikely, not just for you but for any of us) it doesn't mean it'll work out.  Ziplines were intended, the behemoth was intended,  But they were cut.  Could they still happen one day?  You never know, crazier things have happened, but this is the game we have.

Similar even the game that exists today is not guaranteed.  It may play completely differently from now 5 years from now.  And honestly there is nothing wrong with that.  Gamers have this flawed idea that games have a final destination and perfect end result and vision.  But that's false.  Games simply stop being developed at some point.  For single player single purchase games this is usually when the developer either hits the goals they want to or starts work on a new project because sales of single purchase single player games drop off and become smaller over time, which is why its called a "tail".

However in the realm of infinite money continued development there is still no end goal.  There cannot be.  The moment you are happy and stop development the playerbase stagnates and starts to shrink and die.  Maybe 0.00001% of games sustain at this point.  A small handful of names like L4D or TF2, but those games are either free or so close on sale they are effectively free...otherwise even they would not have sustained.  And they are either monetized or used as loss leaders for an entire platform.

Like it or not, multiplayer or singleplayer, development always has to keep a game changing so it doesn't get stale and die.  and ironically even bad changes that you can later follow with good changes are still better than no changes for 99.999% of games.  One of the first games I know of that learned this lesson was Starcraft 1.  It got so well balanced at one point it was near perfect and they didn't want to touch it.  But then the unexpected happened, the game become completely "solved" and strategy mostly disappeared.  It became a game mostly about APM and knowing the existing strategies.  Interest fell off, the playerbase started shrinking, and Blizzard did the only thing it could...it started making changes again intentionally balancing the game so the cycle of balance could begin again and the game recovered its interest and playerbase.  So the previous goal was perfect balance, the new goal was staying close to perfect balance but having continual change.

 

[Old Crow]

With the way magazines are set up they would probably just decrease the number of magazines you need to reach every milestone.

But no matter which method they would employ it would also change the balance for the whole game, because players who play it normally would get the workstations in no time if those drop more in loot and can be bought more often at the trader.

I can think of one solution that would specifically address the ungrouped SP miner/builder (who is the only one with a problem really) without changing overall balance too much: If you perk into AdvancedEngineering you always have a very small chance to find a diamond while digging below ground (i.e. whenever destroying a dirt block). And you can trade in diamonds for specific magazines like forge ahead at the trader. 

Honestly, this is a big problem I personally have. I maxxed out the farming magazines in a couple of in-game days, but Forge Ahead magazines are way too rare, even specced into it. I don't think we should be getting every workstation made by day 2, but an decrease in the rarity of certain books, coupled with a slight decrease in how many are needed, would help a lot. The answer should not be "just increase your loot abundance to 200%" - it should be better balanced for the default setting.

 

[Ralathar44]

Honestly, this is a big problem I personally have. I maxxed out the farming magazines in a couple of in-game days, but Forge Ahead magazines are way too rare, even specced into it. I don't think we should be getting every workstation made by day 2, but an decrease in the rarity of certain books, coupled with a slight decrease in how many are needed, would help a lot. The answer should not be "just increase your loot abundance to 200%" - it should be better balanced for the default setting.

Farming and Workstations are non-comparable.  Farming has always unlocked way faster and is intended to max out early mid game while workstations and steel max out end game.  Farming in the last update took 7 points to unlock everything.  Workstations int he last update took 15.  Why are you expecting them to take the same amount of time simply because we're using magazines now?

Most people will prolly be getting steel/cement at day 30+, like normal.  I'd expect somewhere between 1-2 weeks per workstation, depending on how you play and your spec.  Maybe a bit longer.  And trust me you can survive just fine to day 35+ with cobblestone and iron.  Steel and concrete isnt even needed until demolishers, its just bonus.

 

[Old Crow]

Farming and Workstations are non-comparable.  Farming has always unlocked way faster and is intended to max out early mid game while workstations and steel max out end game.  Farming in the last update took 7 points to unlock everything.  Workstations int he last update took 15.  Why are you expecting them to take the same amount of time simply because we're using magazines now?

Most people will prolly be getting steel/cement at day 30+, like normal.  I'd expect somewhere between 1-2 weeks per workstation, depending on how you play and your spec.

I'll admit, that was a bad comparison. I'm not asking for a mere 20 magazines to unlock every single workstation, though.

 

[Ralathar44]

I'll admit, that was a bad comparison. I'm not asking for a mere 20 magazines to unlock every single workstation, though.

So far in my two runs my workbench was up on day 21 in my completely unspec'd run with no trader quests.  My spec'd run with trader quests is on day 5 and already has 7/10 magazines needed for it.  Prolly on track for a 7 day workbench, 10 at worst.  1 point in advanced engineering, 1 in lock picking (also raises workstation magazine chances!).  This run I've pretty much just been straight looting and doing POIs starting out.  Though I spawned right near a POI with a zombie dog and while I killed it I've been infected for 5 days straight, currently at 42% infection.   FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU  lol.

EDIT: Achieved Workbench on Day 5, but Oh Jesus it got wwwoooorrsssee.  How am I still alive? . That is literally the most hp I'm allowed to have through the injuries haha.

s://imgur.com/wcNa

 

[NekoPawtato]

I find it a bit cumbersome having to go between an item's crafting requirements page and the crafting skill menu.

For example if I search for "anvil" and see it needs workstation lv25, I'd like to know how far away I am from that, which means I have to go to the crafting menu and see what level I'm at (It doesn't really help either that the list isn't in alphabetical order, so I have to remember which categories are on which page). It would be nice if the anvil page itself would tell me what level I am relative to the requirement (ex: 10/25), or a way for me to go straight to that page in the crafting menu

Similarly, for crafting skills that have multiple items in a tier, each with their own level unlock (workstation tier 2 is a good example), it's a bit cumbersome having to go back and forth between the item page and crafting skill menu. If I go to Workstations tier 2 and see "lockpicks" and want to know what level requirement it is, I have to click on it and go to the item description (and see it's lv15). But say now I want to see what the requirement is for Advanced Belows, since it was next to the lockpick on the list, I have to go back to the crafting skill menu and click Workstation again (it's lv 20). It would be nice if it would tell you the level requirements from that crafting skill menu if there are multiple items in that tier. (Maybe hovering over it?) Another good example is Electrician Tier 4, there's a bunch of items in there and I don't know if they all share the same level requirements or not, and finding out would require a lot of navigating back and forth.

 

[Riamus]

I find it a bit cumbersome having to go between an item's crafting requirements page and the crafting skill menu.

For example if I search for "anvil" and see it needs workstation lv25, I'd like to know how far away I am from that, which means I have to go to the crafting menu and see what level I'm at. It would be nice if the anvil page itself would tell me what level I am relative to the requirement (ex: 10/25), or a way for me to go straight to that page in the crafting menu

Similarly, for crafting skills that have multiple items in a tier, each with their own level unlock (workstation tier 2 is a good example), it's a bit cumbersome having to go back and forth between the item page and crafting skill menu. If I go to Workstations tier 2 and see "lockpicks" and want to know what level requirement it is, I have to click on it and go to the item description (and see it's lv15). But say now I want to see what the requirement is for Advanced Belows, since it was next to the lockpick on the list, I have to go back to the crafting skill menu and click Workstation again (it's lv 20). It would be nice if it would tell you the level requirements from that crafting skill menu if there are multiple items in that tier. (Maybe hovering over it?) Another good example is Electrician Tier 4, there's a bunch of items in there and I don't know if they all share the same level requirements or not, and finding out would require a lot of navigating back and forth.

Not sure about going from crafting to magazines as I haven't tried it but you can go from magazines to crafting.  On the magazine tab, pick a magazine you way.  Click once on the tier bar for that magazines (the one that tells you what is unlocked and what is next to unlock).  This will select the tier, which makes the items unlocked by that tier stay on screen above the tier bars instead of disappearing when you move your mouse.  Now, click on the item and it'll take you to the crafting screen for that item.  You do still have to click the item in the list but it takes you to the right spot.  I think it should select the item on the crafting menu as well as just taking you there but this is pretty close.

 

[NekoPawtato]

Now, click on the item and it'll take you to the crafting screen for that item.  You do still have to click the item in the list but it takes you to the right spot.  I think it should select the item on the crafting menu as well as just taking you there but this is pretty close.

I think my problem is I have no easy way to "go back" and look at the other items in the tier once I jump to that item's crafting screen. For example, if I want to see the level requirements of other items in that same tier, I have to go back to crafting skill menu, click on the category I want, click on the tier, and then click on the item. (And repeat for each item in that tier). It's not a big deal, but just a quality of life idea.

I've also found that once I jump to that specific item and see the level requirement, I'm back to "wait so what level am I relative to the requirement?" and have to scramble back to that crafting menu page again XD my goldfish memory

 

[Riamus]

I think my problem is I have no easy way to "go back" and look at the other items in the tier once I jump to that item's crafting screen. For example, if I want to see the level requirements of other items in that same tier, I have to go back to crafting skill menu, click on the category I want, click on the tier, and then click on the item. (And repeat for each item in that tier). It's not a big deal, but just a quality of life idea.

I've also found that once I jump to that specific item and see the level requirement, I'm back to "wait so what level am I relative to the requirement?" and have to scramble back to that crafting menu page again XD my goldfish memory

I agree that an easy way to go back and forth would be useful.  I think you'll probably get used to what things are after playing a while but I still think it would be a good QoL addition.

 

[Ralathar44]

I think I might actually have a good suggestion for the devs that most people would be happy with.  It'd help those with poor RNG where getting just a few more magazines matters, it shouldn't overly swamp those already having good RNG who are already swimming in magazines, and it makes intuitive sense.  It even helps the hardcore builder/farmer types a little.


Right new putting points into perks influences magazine drops.  But what if it also gave you a single knowledge point in that area?  For example if I took my first 7 points and put 3 into intellect for int 4 then skilled 2 points into Advances engineering and 2 points into locksmithing this would give me 4 points into Workstations and only be 1 magazine drop away from the forge.  That's not going to break the bank or get you workstations instantly,  and its not like the old system where poof, you suddenly know the things and its day 2, but it gives people who invest a headstart into getting those first crucial upgrades on top of the RNG magazine bonus which may or may not pan out.  You still need to find that first magazine to get the forge (which will prolly be at your trader in one of the defunct workstations!) and you'll still need the materials to build and use it.  And you'll have spent all of your initial points on non-combat stuff.  But the option is there for a day 1-2 forge if someone deeply specializes.. 

This still ultimately leaves most of the progression to RNG magazine drops, it doesn't stop you from having to go out and scavenge, it's not going to get you to 60 magazines, but its guaranteed measurable progress right out of the gate towards what you want.  If you want to dump those first 7 points by putting 4 into fortitude and then 3 into Brawler then you'll have 4/5 knuckles knowledge already good for quality 2 knuckles wrap with 1 magazine away from quality 3 and THEN increased magazines drops. 


Also lets use Attributes too!  Lets say every attribute point gives you a point of magazine knowledge for a random perk under that attribute.  AND every point into an attribute adds a tiny amount of magazine weighting for its perks.  Let's say 1/5th as much bonus weighting as a perk does.  So if you went agility 5, you'd get 5 magazine knowledge spread randomly between Bows, Handguns, Blades, and Armor and you'd get 1 perk point worth of increased magazine loots for all of them.

 

[FranticDan]

Request: Could we please have 'Quick and Perceptive' to affect wrenching, and 'Big and Fast' to affect mining tools?

 

[Jost Amman]

When you track a recipe, your current quest tracking disappears.

Would it be possible to have both active?

Tks  :yo:

 

[Yukkie]

We are on a server with 8-10 survivors and have had a great gaming experience so far. After 10 days, the water problem was resolved, and on the 20th, the food problem was resolved to some extent.

It's now day 30 and I'm glad I was able to purchase the crucible.

In multiplayer, the work can be shared and everyone is lively.

Playing offline certainly has more work to do and progress is slower, but considering you're the only survivor in an apocalypse world, it doesn't feel very easy to play.

 

[BFT2020]

I wonder if people are still cooking boiled meat and not realizing that they are losing half the hydration they can get from boiled water

Wondering if the new A21 update changed wandering horde? Didn't see any commentary on it but:

Having a problem with a dedicated server, no wandering horde and little to no spawn of random zombies outside of poi's and quests.

Played several random generated maps on the main steam server but they were generated with the initial A21 build prior to the update.

Theya lways had multiple wandering horde and random zombies spawning.

Just set up a dedicated server: no wandering horde and very few random zombies. 

Can't see any line in the command interface regarding wandering horde.  Zombie spawn is enabled.

What are we missing to account for the massive difference in zombies?

All other settings were the same from both types.  We are hosting the server on this one map however.  The difference is significant.

I think you got a bad install.  No issues here with wandering hordes, I just recently had a zombie dog pack I had to deal with after finishing a T3 infection mission

 

[Gamida]

Have noticed that there are sometimes little "spats" about how the game should be and how it should be played between 2 - 8 members on here.

You can probably see where I am going with this lol.

If your timezones allow it why don't you play together on a server where you can discuss the game live (civilly)

That way you can share ideas and even try different playstyless out.

You'll either get to "walk in the other persons shoes" or end up having an all out PVP war.

Both should let you work out your feelings about the game

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

I am not a huge fan of the vehicle progression path so far. In past alphas I have skipped the minibike and waited until I found or bought the necessary schematics or bought the motorcycle outright. This usually occurred between Day 14 and Day 21. Considering how gas seems a little more scarce, I think sticking with the bicycle may probably still be the right call.  In A21, I am on day 32 and two magazines away from getting the motorcycle. I put a point in Grease Monkey around Day 21 and kept an eye for Gas Stations and car related POIs. I've also been checking traders and I've only seen a bicycle offered by Bob. In future playthroughs maybe this improves now that I know how slow the progress is. 

Here's why I am not a huge fan of vehicle progression being this slow. Having a motorcycle drastically changes my options. The motorcycle inventory size makes moving from a starter base to a new base much less of chore (moving bases, dealing with drop chests, and checking traders are my list favorite activities). It allows me to loot other towns or multiple POIs at once without having to worry about drop chests or inventory space. It also better allows me to explore the map. Clearly, I am far away from unlocking the gyrocopter which I typically have unlocked from looting or traders around Day 35  to Day 40  (I generally never put points in Intellect in past alphas, I was happy to rely on RNG for workstations and vehicles).  With the gyrocopter, I would really explore the map and reduce the chore of trader runs.

In my current save, my starting trader was in a biggish city so the slow progression hasn't been a deal breaker. But if my next save ends up starting in a small town, the slowness of the vehicle progression will be much more strongly felt. The lack of a proper vehicle is incredibly limiting in 7d2d and ultimately just increase the tedium of mid game. I think the drop chance of vehicle magazines needs tweaking and/or the total number of magazines for unlocks needs to be reduced.

Update: I have now unlocked the motorcycle on Day 32. In my opinion this is just too late. I am fully established in my starter base and a horde base (both built on the same POI next to a trader) that will continue to work with minor tweaks and upgrades well past the point I get bored with this save.  

 

[Laz Man]

So far in my two runs my workbench was up on day 21 in my completely unspec'd run with no trader quests.  My spec'd run with trader quests is on day 5 and already has 7/10 magazines needed for it.  Prolly on track for a 7 day workbench, 10 at worst.  1 point in advanced engineering, 1 in lock picking (also raises workstation magazine chances!).  This run I've pretty much just been straight looting and doing POIs starting out.  Though I spawned right near a POI with a zombie dog and while I killed it I've been infected for 5 days straight, currently at 42% infection.   FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU  lol.

EDIT: Achieved Workbench on Day 5, but Oh Jesus it got wwwoooorrsssee.  How am I still alive? . That is literally the most hp I'm allowed to have through the injuries haha.

s://imgur.com/wcNa

Hopefully you are having a blast.  Some of my most enjoyable playthroughs are those where I was barely surviving... 

Looks like you are playing on the Navezgane map as well?  Progression is also noticeably slower on that map.

 

[doughphunghus]

Playing on pure vanilla settings on latest experimental... i like it "a lot" so I'm only posting Some a21 "negative" input with details/thoughts for brevity, I'm on "day 9", still in the forest biome.

- Doors: when the first "hole" appears, its always centered right at head level for most zeds (who also stand mostly right in the middle of the door while breaking it). Ive found myself using doors as natural barricades to get easy head shots. Maybe move the hole off center on some doors?

- helmet water filter: i found one in my first day in loot. Yeah "i could have chosen not to use it" but i do feel looting it (and early) should be nerfed somehow. I think it should be "buy only" and/or crafted only and nerfed as a mod so its not 100% safe to drink with. Maybe 5-8% dysentery chance.

- murky water: i found a lot of this on loot. I just started drinking it without boiling and got quite a few in me (like 10?) before dysentery kicked in. I feel that the dysentery "chance" should be upped a little, to discourage drinking more, but its been that way for forever so ... maybe make it like meat where its 5 bottles of murky water boils to 1 boiled water?

- player created doors: the health on a first tier wooden door is 1000 hp. While the early zeds were able to do a lot of damage, it was super easy to just repair it "whenever" while they beat on it. I feel dropping it a little might make it less OP.

- Food: im finding a lot of food. I have not had a food issue its so much.

non a21 micro complaint: it's always kinda weird to open a box or a cabinet and find a open "bowl" of perfectly good food. And also weird to just put that in storage/backpack (like a plate of bacon and eggs). I know its just graphics but the only "feel good fix" i can think of other than changing the graphics (as you do craft them, and then it looks/feels good as a bowl/plate) is removing them from loot. I know its always been this way . Kinda like the "pie" doesn't seem to come in a dish...its just a pie.. it feels like it should be in a box or saran wrap.

The log item: hitting trees/blocks gives ...planks. But i have to... craft a log from .....planks?

Generic micro complaint on the UI: when using a workstation, having the "craft time" or "cook time" be on top of the crafted item makes it hard to see. Maybe move the time below/above the item? Example: cooking eggs: its white eggs with white cook time on top of them.
 

a21 "positive" input: theres a lot to like, my faves so far other than "graphics update" and "new blocks" and pois, which are all great:

- the occasional feral early game. yes!

- multiple doors opening when hitting the keyrack And  i have seen 1 door sometimes open/close based on... err.. a spot that can be stepped on? Good stuff. It looked like a zed opened a door which was cool.
- new sounds. Thanks!

- progression/items/etc: feels good, esp with the "i can sometimes loot good stuff". It slows things down a bit but not severely, always something to work towards.

- all the injuries when getting hit: i like it.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Playing on pure vanilla settings on latest experimental... i like it "a lot" so I'm only posting Some a21 "negative" input with details/thoughts for brevity, I'm on "day 9", still in the forest biome.

- helmet water filter: i found one in my first day in loot. Yeah "i could have chosen not to use it" but i do feel looting it (and early) should be nerfed somehow. I think it should be "buy only" and/or crafted only and nerfed as a mod so its not 100% safe to drink with. Maybe 5-8% dysentery chance.

- murky water: i found a lot of this on loot. I just started drinking it without boiling and got quite a few in me (like 10?) before dysentery kicked in. I feel that the dysentery "chance" should be upped a little, to discourage drinking more, but its been that way for forever so ... maybe make it like meat where its 5 bottles of murky water boils to 1 boiled water?

- player created doors: the health on a first tier wooden door is 1000 hp. While the early zeds were able to do a lot of damage, it was super easy to just repair it "whenever" while they beat on it. I feel dropping it a little might make it less OP.

* Water Purifier - I don't know what the drop chances are but let's say hypothetically its 1%. Just because you happened to find one in a game on day 1 doesn't mean there should be a zero chance for it to drop.  The first time I saw the water purifier mod in was in the late day 20s when it has no real use for me. If it ruins your playthrough don't use it or eliminate it from your game. This game is largely driven by RNG, there needs to be the chance of a rare drop to spice things up.

* Murky water - I think the drop rate is mostly fine because you need water to make glue and it rewards people for opening every single loot container. At Day 9 you haven't experienced the true need for duct tape yet as what you can craft is pretty limited at that point.  

* Doors - Doors can no longer be reinforced so while 10 wood does take you further in this Alpha  you can no longer increase the health of doors by reinforcing with iron. It mostly balances out.  You also need forged iron for iron hatches which I think also balances out the strength of the doors early game since iron hatches aren't as practical any more.