PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Neminsis]

I don’t think we really need 1000+hour veterans trying to speculate and anticipate the behavior of brand new players. I mean go ahead for the thought exercise but TFP uses Game Sparks to learn the exact and actual behavior of new players. Thanks but the role of player behavior tracker and analyst has been filled…

I'm sure that you didn't mean to be condescending or dismissive there, but it does kind of sound like it. 

Yes, and you might just remember the only other time I brought up a topic on this board, it was specifically because it was unlikely to be picked up by telemetry or short cycle testing. You were the one that moved the entire discussion to overflow and apparently there was value in doing so because they've increased the number of bones and solved the late game glue problem for that 'extreme' playstyle of doing horde night with nothing but exploding arrows or bolts. 

This isn't really much different, is it? I'm not sure how telemetry is going to pick up a new player deciding that they're going to be a miner and sell to the trader in order to buy books, finding out that it doesn't work, saying, "Okay, fine I'll do it your way" only to get lumped in with everyone already doing that. It just makes that one game loop to rule them all look more popular.

What exactly is lost by other trees being on par as an economic alternative to Better Barter, Daring adventurer? I'm not suggesting that Intellect is so OP that it needs to be nerfed, only that primary resource gathering be equal in exp/duke gain to it and that the critical books that every tree needs, tool crafting and workstations, be more frequent at the trader. I mean, if a player wants to scrap everything in sight they ought to be able to level up that skill and afford books on crafting better tools, right?

 

[faatal]

This is so silly. TFP made the wasteland with better enemies+loot exactly for veterans like this youtuber so they have the choice to skip the novice-friendly normal progression and get on the fast track. In your version it sounds like the better loot in the wasteland was an undiscovered bug introduced by the janitor.

And additionally, the game is NOT done. It is NOT balanced as a whole. This remains an ALPHA. Wasteland, snow and desert will possibly be gated by survival gear, so you won't just be running off on day one to those biomes and if you do, it will be harsh.

My daughter and I started a new game last night on our internal b318 version and we are planning on heading to the snow biome once we get our bikes. Will it be hard and we die more? Probably. Will it be unbalanced and change our progression? Maybe. Will I learn something about a different way to play that might be helpful in discussing what we want to do and future changes we make? Sure and hopefully we have some fun along the way.

People seem to also have forgotten or don't know that during an experimental we do a variety of balance changes as we continue our playtesting until we reach a point we consider solid for the stable release. This is normal game development.

 

[Neminsis]

You're talking about baseline playable state of the game.

If I'd meant baseline 'playable state of the game' I would've said exactly that, in exactly that word order. I did not.

 

But some people throw up their hands and call a game like FTL unfair and insist its all RNG and the player can do nothing rather than learn the ropes. 

Okay, and I'll keep this as simple as possible, tell me how you can get the books you need to level up tool crafting if you're only selling the resources you're gathering from mining, lumberjacking, hunting, or selling crafted items in hopes that the trader will have the right books at a reasonable price?

Does averaging 4k hours per alpha since a15 count as being afraid to learn the ropes? What is it with everyone having to take these kind of pot shots anyway?

 

I'm doing everything the opposite of what you say I should be doing this run.

No, I never said anything about how you should play. In fact, you're apparently playing something akin to my default build a couple levels below what I'm used to. That's good, it shows that you're a player of taste and discernment. However, that doesn't negate the fact that people use "Just mod the game" to end all discussion of anything that might be considered a flaw, albeit temporarily because the game is still in the public testing phase, in their one true love of a game. It's a cop out answer that's become too glib and easily delivered around here, and it really doesn't serve any good purpose. 

I hope that's made things a little clearer for you.

 

[Neminsis]

The game (the complete game) includes a variety of aspects that are intended to be used together while playing the game.

How long have you been self designated as a spokesman for the TFP? I don't remember them ever specifically saying this, but I have seen them recently go to a lot of effort to balance the perk trees so that everyone wasn't clumping up in the Strength tree. I mean this entire alpha can be summed up into 4 major categories; Make the game prettier, make crafting more rewarding compared to looting, rebalance the perk trees, enhance the survival aspects of the game. 

They've absolutely nailed the first one from the new assets to the new pois to the improvements to RWG to the new hazards to the optimization. The list goes on if you're unclear by what I mean when I say "prettier'

The second and third ones are indisputably just not there yet. I mean they're very close and I'm sure they'll get to dialing them in as soon as they clear the rest of stuff on their plate at the moment. 

The fourth one, again I think that they've absolutely nailed it because they've provided multiple paths that the player can address it. 
 

There are at least two recent threads stating the game is dead.

So that doesn't mean that you get to take it out on me because I happened to remind you of something someone else said, does it?

 

My post was a response to what is being stated by others.

Your response quoted me and was thus directed at me not those others. 
 

you start to be abrasive in your responses

Yes, I do have the tendency to respond in kind. I do apologize for annoying you by responding to everyone else that isn't you. Take it up with them.

 

In any case, I don't really feel the need to keep this conversation going.  Feel free to continue with your doom and gloom posts

I'm fine with that considering that up to the very end you continue to misstate my position. There is nothing "doom and gloom" about any of my posts and that appears to be you projecting the attitude of others from an entirely different thread onto me. I don't know how many times I have to say it but this could be easily fixed to provide a broader game experience without affecting the core balance for any other players. That's not only positive, that's wide eyed optimism and faith in the dev team.

Thanks for playing. Have a wonderful day.

 

 

[Ralathar44]

If I'd meant baseline 'playable state of the game' I would've said exactly that, in exactly that word order. I did not.

You running for office?  You gonna define what the definition of IS is next?  I quoted your entire bit.  You're talking about the baseline playable state of the game.  The core loop.  the consistent path that even a newb would end up going through.

Literally the only difference in what we are talking about is you got stupid with it.  Not that you are stupid, I don't think you are, but you made a very stupid argument.  You said "There should be a baseline where it just works the first time you try it no matter how bad you are at the game.". And that's simply not true for any game that allows you to fail. You're gonna die, you're gonna lose, RNG is not always going to be kind, etc.

There is no "works the first time you try not matter how bad it is".  None of the top games on steam deliver that.  One of the most popular of the year, Elden Ring, if anything delivered the exact opposite experience.  Doesn't work even the 50th time no matter how good you do lol .  But then somehow you muck through on time 51 anyways and its great . 

And before you go full politician again: "Right now that baseline is, you get to the trader, you discover that everything is obtainable through dukes and you throw points into better barter and daring adventurer only to later wonder why there are even other perk trees." is your definition of that baseline.  But you're confused.  Not only is what you are describing highly imbalanced (which is why it was nerfed, no one playstyle should excel at everything) but you could still indeed fail doing exactly what you said.

And in fact, it sounds like you got so used to a crutch that now the crutch isn't there you're struggle bussing it.  But you did that to yourself lol.

No, I never said anything about how you should play

Funny everything in context quoted is about how your should play, including what I replied to.  Not how I should play personally, but how other people should play.  How a noob should play.  How the game should be designed to play.  How its effective to play.  You can try and word salad all your want, but its just obvious you're equivocating.

Okay, and I'll keep this as simple as possible, tell me how you can get the books you need to level up tool crafting if you're only selling the resources you're gathering from mining, lumberjacking, hunting, or selling crafted items in hopes that the trader will have the right books at a reasonable price?

Does averaging 4k hours per alpha since a15 count as being afraid to learn the ropes? What is it with everyone having to take these kind of pot shots anyway?

Aye, you're afraid to learn the ropes.  I see your problem.  Like I suspected above you have become reliant on a crutch.  Traders didn't exist before A15 and most of their existence they've been overpowered.  See, when I learned the ropes we didn't have traders.  Hell we didn't have temperature or wetness.  (man, temperature was a ROUGH addition, it was real bad at first) There were no vehicles until the minibike, that derpy ass mini bike and all its bugs haha .

Hours alone mean nothing.  You could spend 20 years training Tae Kwon Do and then get your ass handed to you by someone who'd only trained MMA for 5 years.  Alot of times more hours just means you're reinforcing bad habits.   Even in things that work people after drill a set series of ideas in their heads and if you can throw something at them they are not trained for, even if they've trained for thousands of hours, they fall to pieces. 

You've gotten used to the trader wiping your bum and selling you everything in one spot and now you don't want to actually properly learn the ropes.  You've become spoiled, complacent.  But like it or not looting/scavenging has always been a CORE part of this game.

THAT BEING SAID I'm still willing to make a suggestion that might solve your issue in a way that does not defeat current design!  What if they added a 6th Trader who's specialization was Tech Stuff, magazines, recipes, and mods?  Or added magazines and recipes as part of Jen's specialization?  That way you'd have a trader who would have, lets say, double or triple the average amount of magazines...but would have very little of the actual tools/equipment/food/etc to help you stay aliv otherwise.  You'd have to seek out other traders for those.

The biggest difference between us BTW isn't that I dislike your idea of the game, actually I like that style too.  The biggest difference is that you've developed this entire headcannon on how everything should work and the moment you don't have your supporting infrastructure you fall to pieces.  You get an accidental look into the abyss of chaos and uncertainty and unplanned outcomes and you blink.  My core play style is adapting.  Riding the wave, be it structured or chaos.   Hell, learning that skill was the only way to survive RVR in Dark Age of Camelot .

 

[Frank1887]

Разработчики являются поклонниками бережливой игры, где каждый предмет уникален. Таким образом, каждое семейство оружия обладает уникальными характеристиками, и семейство существует только для того, чтобы перейти от слабого к мощному.

Компания, делающая эту игру, небольшая. Они могли бы добавить больше, но недостаточно, чтобы действительно выглядело так, как будто зомби не повторяются. Так что, похоже, они направили свои усилия в другое место

Казино, вероятно, является просто главной базой бандитов, а герцог является главным боссом.

TFP хочет закончить игру, поэтому, кроме зомби и некоторых других вещей, игра почти завершена. Дальнейшее расширение игры, скорее всего, произойдет в 7D2D 2. Или расширение/DLC.

Если вам станет скучно, вы можете увеличить частоту ночи орды и/или увеличить сложность. Игровой цикл обычно связан с подготовкой к ночи орды, которая будет становиться все более серьезной. Вы уже видели подрывников в ордынскую ночь?

Домашних животных не ожидается. Дрон был выбран в качестве компаньона, потому что с ним удалось избежать множества проблем с траекторией

История, которую они планируют добавить, не будет большой. NPC не заполнят мир, хотя, возможно, у них есть планы на несколько конкретных NPC (?), я не знаю. В основном они будут добавлять бандитов вместе с новыми персонажами игроков. Вы можете найти краткий список того, что еще запланировано для игры, на первой странице этой темы.

Очень похоже на fallout. Я не думаю, что разработчики являются поклонниками простого копирования вещей из других игр. И у них определенно нет рабочей силы, чтобы имитировать гораздо более крупную игру.

I am incredibly grateful to you for such large and lengthy answers and for taking the time to write my huge text.
Yes, I found a list of planned things, but I think it's a little modest for such a game with such a large community. It's just that when I played the game, I would never say that this game is like an indie project. I can only say that the game looks unfinished and it lacks a bit of content. In addition, when I looked through the list of top-selling steam games, there was also 7 days. That is a very ambitious project
Will DLS appear in the game? Can't you just say a few words about what they might be or their guesses?
Are they going to finish the game? I really would not like, since the game is super interesting, to literally add a few necessary things and I can say that this is one of their best survival and zombie-themed games. In addition, the game has a high online, maybe if the online will grow with updates, they will change their plans a little?
Once again, I thank you for your attention. I am ready to send you a small donation for the fact that you gave me time and answered all my questions well. Just tell me where I can do it.

 

[Riamus]

I'm fine with that considering that up to the very end you continue to misstate my position.

One last thought for you.  Have you noticed a pattern from everyone responding to you?  You continually state that people don't understand what you're saying.  Have you noticed that?  Do you think maybe there's a reason?  If everyone isn't understanding you, either you aren't being clear or you are being disingenuous in your statement that people aren't understanding you.  If you sincerely feel people aren't understanding you, then it may help to figure out why as this seems to just be a revolving door right now.  A little feedback in case you want any.

 

[Neminsis]

You're talking about the baseline playable state of the game.

Don't give up your day job to become a mind reader. I said, no, you're mistaken and then I clarified. You don't get to tell me what I was actually thinking, that's not how anything works.
 

but how other people should play.  How a noob should play.

No, it's not even that. It was simply stating how Better Barter and Daring adventurer is highlighted as a preferable perk set by the very first experience at the trader and the very first time a player runs into difficulties obtaining any item. Did you not admit that you'd also thrown a point into Better barter or was that someone else?
 

Aye, you're afraid to learn the ropes.

LOL...This is 'extremely' funny given that half the people around here are saying that I just play 'extreme' playstyles. I have played this game about every possible way that it can be played just to stave off boredom, and every alpha I test the boundaries all over again, because I really like not staying in the same rut for game after game, but hey you go on with throwing baseless accusations around, that's surely going to get you somewhere.
 

Hours alone mean nothing.

No, you'd kind of have to test and retest and then test again...

 

THAT BEING SAID I'm still willing to make a suggestion that might solve your issue in a way that does not defeat current design!

I already did that by suggesting the exp for gathering and prices for gathered resources/crafted items be bumped up to make books affordable from the trader and that the critical books of tool crafting and workstations be favored in the trader inventory. 

That being said, why your idea won't work besides it requiring more code and assets, which makes it automatic no go, is that a big part of the problem is travel time on wilderness and Navezgane spawns and where exactly would you locate this extra special trader?

It's really just a minor balance issue and I don't see why everyone is getting so worked up over it.

I leave you with this...
 

And additionally, the game is NOT done. It is NOT balanced as a whole. This remains an ALPHA.

And this...
 

People seem to also have forgotten or don't know that during an experimental we do a variety of balance changes as we continue our playtesting until we reach a point we consider solid for the stable release. This is normal game development.

Thanks for playing and have a wonderful day.

One last thought for you.  Have you noticed a pattern from everyone responding to you?

Have you noticed that none of the people that have responded to me actually seem to understand that TFP know that the game is unbalanced and that there are going to be multiple balance passes before it's out of experimental just like every other alpha to date?


Seriously, now you go on and live your very best life.  

 

[Slingblade2040]

And additionally, the game is NOT done. It is NOT balanced as a whole. This remains an ALPHA. Wasteland, snow and desert will possibly be gated by survival gear, so you won't just be running off on day one to those biomes and if you do, it will be harsh.

My daughter and I started a new game last night on our internal b318 version and we are planning on heading to the snow biome once we get our bikes. Will it be hard and we die more? Probably. Will it be unbalanced and change our progression? Maybe. Will I learn something about a different way to play that might be helpful in discussing what we want to do and future changes we make? Sure and hopefully we have some fun along the way.

People seem to also have forgotten or don't know that during an experimental we do a variety of balance changes as we continue our playtesting until we reach a point we consider solid for the stable release. This is normal game development.

If the solution is later on gating biomes with survival gear then that sounds like we currently have for the snow and desert is just a place holder. That sounds like it would kill alot of the custom RWG playthroughs for folks who want desert only or snow biome for frozen wasteland. The idea of biome gating just sounds horrible and it might as well be a loading screen into a different level. 

But anyways how will loot be balanced when you can walk up to easy to access vehicles, trash and other stuff in the wasteland with its high loot bonus for easy to get loot? Just remove tools, weapons and armor from vehicle loot tables and other things we find out in the open and not inside a PoI? It's not like it's difficult to pay attention to your surroundings when out in the open and looting  then riding away on a minibike or bike.

What I referenced wasn't doing quests or entering dangerous PoIs. It's simply going around on a bike and looting up vehicles, bags or whatever in a biome that provides a high loot bonus. If anyone can easily get quality 5+ iron or steel tools,  weapons and armor then what's the point of looting magazines when anyone bypass it all by simply leveling up in easy biomes and looting the things I mentioned in the wasteland?

 

[Riamus]

So how will loot be balanced when you can walk up to easy to access vehicles, trash and other stuff in the wasteland with its high loot bonus for easy to get loot? Just remove tools, weapons and armor from vehicle loot tables and other things we find out in the open and not inside a PoI? It's not like it's difficult to pay attention to your surroundings when out in the open and looting  then riding away on a minibike or bike.

What I referenced wasn't doing quests or entering dangerous PoIs. It's simply going around on a bike and looting up vehicles, bags or whatever in a biome that provides a high loot bonus. If anyone can easily get quality 5+ iron or steel tools,  weapons and armor then what's the point of looting magazines when I can bypass it all by simply leveling up in easy biomes and looting cars in the wasteland?

I think he clearly pointed out the answer to that.  He said the game isn't complete and that they might be gating the biomes by survival gear.  That means you wouldn't be just going down the street looting vehicles if you don't have survival gear without having some serious problems.  And I'd assume such survival gear would not be found on day 1.

Besides, as someone said before, they don't really care if you choose to do that.  Go for it.  It doesn't have to be balanced.  It is really just like people who min/max.  If they want to do so, they'll progress faster than people who don't.  That's okay.  No balancing required.

You are not required to craft in the game if you don't want to.  The magazines make crafting viable for those who don't try to rush the late game items.  In A20, there wasn't much reason to craft most things.  Only a limited number of things had any reason to be crafted, such as ammo, gas, food, drinks, etc.  Weapons, tools, armor, mods?  Very rarely.  With A21, for me, I find myself crafting weapons far more often.  Tools are from another player so I haven't been crafting those myself.  Armor still feels like not being worth crafting, though I honestly haven't really looked into it because I haven't felt any need to upgrade beyond what I find yet.  But all in all, I do craft more than I used to.  However, if you don't want to craft, you aren't being forced to do so.  Go ahead and loot in the wasteland and just sell all the magazines so you have a ton of money (I'm assuming you can sell them, though I haven't tried).  If that makes you happy, go for it.

 

[Ralathar44]

That being said, why your idea won't work besides it requiring more code and assets, which makes it automatic no go, is that a big part of the problem is travel time on wilderness and Navezgane spawns and where exactly would you locate this extra special trader?

Which is why I also suggested simply adding magazines and recipes as a specialty to Jen since currently she only has medical, which is niche.  But if your problem is travel time then I'll direct you right back to the "nope, sorry having everything you need in a single location was broken and a crutch".
 

It's really just a minor balance issue and I don't see why everyone is getting so worked up over it.

I mean there are always people who want everything in a single location or spec.  In MMOs they want to be broken tank mages with self healing.  In FPS games they want to keep an overpowered gun or class kit.  Doesn't matter how broken something is or how it undercuts the design of everyone else, someone will fight for it as if its reasonable and everyone else disagreeing is crazy and just wants to yuck their yum.

End of the day scavenging is a core part of the game and everyone is either expected to scavenge or to have other people scavenge for them.  The tiny % of addicted people are just gonna have to learn how to live without the trader solving all their problems.  Otherwise the entire game could just be a trader and an open wilderness lol.

Trader is prolly gonna be nerfed more too.  Quest rewards are outscaling other progression right now.

 

[RipClaw]

Is it just bad luck or are steel tool parts and motor tool parts really that much rarer than weapon parts ? 

 

[Ralathar44]

Is it just bad luck or are steel tool parts and motor tool parts really that much rarer than weapon parts ? 

Are you perked into weapons?  (this increases their part drops too)
Are you perked into Miner 69er? (this increases tool part drops too)
 

 

[Jost Amman]

Felling trees doesn't raise the stealth meter at all.  :suspicious:

 

[NekoPawtato]

Is it just bad luck or are steel tool parts and motor tool parts really that much rarer than weapon parts ? 

Are you perked into weapons?  (this increases their part drops too)
Are you perked into Miner 69er? (this increases tool part drops too)
 

anecdotal here, but i perked into sledge and miner 69r early on (not sure if 1 point vs 5 points makes a difference though? Tho I would say I levelled them about equal amounts) but I ended up with over 50 sledge parts and maybe 5 steel parts by day 28. This is only based off of 1 game though

 

[RipClaw]

Are you perked into weapons?  (this increases their part drops too)
Are you perked into Miner 69er? (this increases tool part drops too)

One of my first point went into the Miner 69er and I leveled it pretty much equally to my weapon perk. I am perked into shotguns and clubs, and I found plenty of parts for both, but surprisingly almost no parts for tools. I have more parts for weapons I am not perked into than for tools.

anecdotal here, but i perked into sledge and miner 69r early on (not sure if 1 point vs 5 points makes a difference though? Tho I would say I levelled them about equal amounts) but I ended up with over 50 sledge parts and maybe 5 steel parts by day 28. This is only based off of 1 game though

Pretty much the same here. Day 25 and I only found 11 steel tool parts and 10 motor tool parts in total. But I found over 50 steel club parts and 30 shotgun parts.

I spread my points pretty evenly between my tools and my weapons. I even have a point into salvage operations which should help with the parts as well.

 

[Khissi]

Is it just bad luck or are steel tool parts and motor tool parts really that much rarer than weapon parts ? 

They are, but, have you noticed how FEW you need to make the tools now?  Sorta balances it all out in my opinion.  I didn't have enough to make one of every type of steel tool for every tier, but I just hung on to my stuff until I got to tier 3 ability, then made the pick axe so I could mine more efficiently.  After a bit, I got the shovel and axe in drops in tier 4 POIs so, it was moot! I have yet to have enough magazines to make tier 5 steel tools, but it will get there, if we don't get another build and I wipe this world to make another.

 

[RipClaw]

They are, but, have you noticed how FEW you need to make the tools now?  Sorta balances it all out in my opinion.

I noticed that, but unfortunately it does not quite balance it out. Steel tool parts and motor tool parts are used for harvesting tool, repairing tool, and salvaging tools. You need steel tool parts for the steel axe, the steel pickaxe, the steel shovel, and the ratchet. And you need motor tool parts for the auger, the chainsaw, the nailgun and the impact driver.

 

[mstdv inc]

I don’t think we really need 1000+hour veterans trying to speculate and anticipate the behavior of brand new players. I mean go ahead for the thought exercise but TFP uses Game Sparks to learn the exact and actual behavior of new players. Thanks but the role of player behavior tracker and analyst has been filled…

In fact, I agree with that. After a thousand hours, it's very difficult to surprise me with something. I no longer get that wow effect as at the very beginning.
And I am biased towards every new update. Therefore, despite the fact that I do not agree with everything that developers do, I support them.

 

[HeLLKnight]

Hey, wanted to give you some initial a21exp performance feedback. I7 13700k, 32gb 6400mhz CL32, RTX3080. Tried resolutions up to 4k and low medium high ultra presets.

In general A21 improved a bit in some cases and scenarios, specially in cities with many zombies, great job! I give you results on the top of Higashi tower with other big buildings in the background.

Ultra preset
- No zombies (killall): 60-70 fps
- spamming 50 demolishers: 45-50 fps

High preset
- No zombies (killall): 80-90 fps
- spamming 50 demolishers: 60-70 fps

In all cases 1440p to avoid GPU bottleneck, MSI Afterburner reporting GPU usage always below 65%. Far from gold for a 13700k IMO, but better. I've seen a streamer playing a21 with AMD 2700x and 2080ti suffering 30-40fps in a little town with 15-20 zombies, 1440p and medium preset (low GPU usage too), while using other PC to capture the streaming and as game server. Hope there is room for more improvement in this unique voxel game.

I didnt have good experiences with dynamic resolution in automatic mode. In heavy scenarios when I'm clearly CPU bound with GPU at 50%, when fps are below 60 the game lowers resolution by a lot and my fps doesnt get up at all. Maybe the solution is to only lower resolution if the game detects itself that the GPU is in heavy use?

@faatal implementations of FSR for old Unity render pipeline keep improving. The free mentioned here a month ago got updates, and the 30$ unity store addon is released, gives support and they are looking into Adaptive FSR quality, that can even be seemless as the downscaling is a float value between 1 and 3. Maybe this could improve current dynamic resolution implementation.

https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/tools/utilities/fsr-2-upscaling-for-unity-252172

About graphics, I improved antialiasing a lot injecting FXAA on top of ingame TAA with Reshade, improving edges specially in far geometry. Maybe TAA+FXAA or TAA+SMAA or whatever could be an option in a future.